Realistic expectations for 2023-24?

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Off-GridTNgopher said:
Well if we've learned anything about protests in MN it's that you can burn loot and riot... So maybe we break into Williams arena, loot all the beer, torch the court, etc etc... I'm sure someone here is a felon... We can then put up a big statue praising them for breaking in, robbing the place and torching it to the ground.... idk just a thought... It would induce more political change and we could be the first university with a furry as head coach!!!!
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Feels a little extreme for our current situation but should keep all options on the table at this point.
 

Ewert86PC said:
The thing is that this meager praise is enough to set this team back twice as far.

I don't think you recognize your role in the "one step forward, two steps back" dynamic of rewarding mediocrity.

It is not changing to better situation. There needs to be consistent steps forward and that takes focus and determination. Constant praise of such a desperately needy team serves to set the team back. The team has to keep improving and praise be damned right now.
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Responses to the bolded sentences:

Just what exactly is his role in "rewarding mediocrity?"

Who the hell is showering this team with praise? At most, people are pointing out positives here and there or are reasonably pleased with the development of some players.

Those of us who are not bitching and moaning constantly are doing no less to help the situation than those who are bitching and moaning constantly. Just because you huff and puff and accuse other posters of appeasement doesn't mean that you're doing a damn thing to change the situation.

I've told a number of people what to do if they demand change: raise a bunch of money and donate it to the athletic department with the stipulation that it is earmarked for the buyout of the current coach or the hiring of a new coach.
 

Off-GridTNgopher said:
Well if we've learned anything about protests in MN it's that you can burn loot and riot... So maybe we break into Williams arena, loot all the beer, torch the court, etc etc... I'm sure someone here is a felon... We can then put up a big statue praising them for breaking in, robbing the place and torching it to the ground.... idk just a thought... It would induce more political change and we could be the first university with a furry as head coach!!!!
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Have you set a date?
 

cjbfbp said:
Responses to the bolded sentences:

Just what exactly is his role in "rewarding mediocrity?"

Who the hell is showering this team with praise? At most, people are pointing out positives here and there or are reasonably pleased with the development of some players.

Those of us who are not bitching and moaning constantly are doing no less to help the situation than those who are bitching and moaning constantly. Just because you huff and puff and accuse other posters of appeasement doesn't mean that you're doing a damn thing to change the situation.

I've told a number of people what to do if they demand change: raise a bunch of money and donate it to the athletic department with the stipulation that it is earmarked for the buyout of the current coach or the hiring of a new coach.
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Rewarding mediocrity is praising before the goal is achieved. It is confusing encouragement (you can do it) with praise (you did it).

Additionally, you have forgotten the other side to change: you can walk away letting it rot in place so that the change will come when it collapses in on itself. I see more people walking away than ponying up because their efforts and support have been wasted by the politics of screwed up previous administrations. They've supported this program through dark days and feel unappreciated and disrespected. Winning is the only thing that can draw them back, and that isn't happening.

The pool of people who are apathetic has outgrown those who still feel value in their efforts of support. This means the pool of money you are trying to draw from is drying up. It is no surprise St. Thomas has a better D1 MBB program than UMN. They don't have a track record of incompetence and interference with their program.
 
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topos said:
As much as you hate Ben and want him to fail, you make me feel better about the trajectory of our team with this last post.

Would any objective poster here, who watched the game last night, trade our current roster for Shrewsberry's roster?

Penn State has six seniors (five of them are 5th-year seniors that will all be gone next year). Seniors played 85% of the minutes last night for Penn State.

Back to the portal for a new team for Shrews in 2023/2024!

Penn State's best recruit from the 2022 class, Nije, a 4*, was absolutely owned by Payne last night. Give me three more years of that, please!

JOJ is adding another dimension to his game (our 2nd best 3-pt shooter all of a sudden), Henley is looking more comfortable, and Garcia, when healthy, is undoubtedly our best player who could be here for two more years.

I'm not saying Ben hasn't made mistakes and doesn't have work to do (primarily getting a true PG in the portal). I'd wager a healthy sum; we will be significantly better than Penn State next year.

As we learned during the Pitino years, living off the transfer portal is volatile. For every Akeen Springs, there was a Brock Stull, Alihan Demir, and Both Gach.

@GopherWeatherGuy - You talk about how good of a job Shrewsberry has done compared to Ben and how superior he is, and then in other threads, when posters mention the improved play, you pull out, "We lost to a historically worse Penn State program at home, this is an embarrassment."

Which is it?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this team will be okay and be fun again very soon. Bookmark it.
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Yes I would take Shrewsberry and Penn St's roster over Johnson and our future roster.

Penn St lost 3 of their top 6 scorers from last year's team. They went to the portal and brought in better players, and are better this season. Both this year's freshman class and next year's class are ranked higher than ours. Calvin Booth's and Shrewsberry's kids come in next season. He'll also dip into the portal again, to where he's had far more success than Ben.

Njie only played 11 minutes last night. Payne was great, but he did most of his damage against a very small lineup that didn't include Njie. That and your comments about Henley, are you sure you even watched last night's game?

Shrewsberry has done a far better job than Johnson, that's not even debatable. But if the season ended today, they are still a weakling Wednesday team and they are 6 games better than us. That's how bad we are, and the jury is still out on Shrewsberry long term.
 


topos said:
As much as you hate Ben and want him to fail, you make me feel better about the trajectory of our team with this last post.

Would any objective poster here, who watched the game last night, trade our current roster for Shrewsberry's roster?

Penn State has six seniors (five of them are 5th-year seniors that will all be gone next year). Seniors played 85% of the minutes last night for Penn State.

Back to the portal for a new team for Shrews in 2023/2024!

Penn State's best recruit from the 2022 class, Nije, a 4*, was absolutely owned by Payne last night. Give me three more years of that, please!
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💯💯
topos said:
JOJ is adding another dimension to his game (our 2nd best 3-pt shooter all of a sudden), Henley is looking more comfortable, and Garcia, when healthy, is undoubtedly our best player who could be here for two more years
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There are some good pieces definitely 👍
topos said:
I'm not saying Ben hasn't made mistakes and doesn't have work to do (primarily getting a true PG in the portal). I'd wager a healthy sum; we will be significantly better than Penn State next year.
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Of course he has - the people on here who are hyper critical, must have never made mistakes early in their careers.
topos said:
As we learned during the Pitino years, living off the transfer portal is volatile. For every Akeen Springs,
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topos said:
there was a Brock Stull, Alihan Demir, and Both Gach.
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Who doesn’t reminiscence for them
topos said:
@GopherWeatherGuy - You talk about how good of a job Shrewsberry has done compared to Ben and how superior he is, and then in other threads, when posters mention the improved play, you pull out, "We lost to a historically worse Penn State program at home, this is an embarrassment."

Which is it?
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Depends on which way the wind blows - he takes his moniker seriously!
topos said:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this team will be okay and be fun again very soon. Bookmark it.
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You are a sage sire!
 
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topos said:
As much as you hate Ben and want him to fail, you make me feel better about the trajectory of our team with this last post.

Would any objective poster here, who watched the game last night, trade our current roster for Shrewsberry's roster?

Penn State has six seniors (five of them are 5th-year seniors that will all be gone next year). Seniors played 85% of the minutes last night for Penn State.

Back to the portal for a new team for Shrews in 2023/2024!

Penn State's best recruit from the 2022 class, Nije, a 4*, was absolutely owned by Payne last night. Give me three more years of that, please!

JOJ is adding another dimension to his game (our 2nd best 3-pt shooter all of a sudden), Henley is looking more comfortable, and Garcia, when healthy, is undoubtedly our best player who could be here for two more years.

I'm not saying Ben hasn't made mistakes and doesn't have work to do (primarily getting a true PG in the portal). I'd wager a healthy sum; we will be significantly better than Penn State next year.

As we learned during the Pitino years, living off the transfer portal is volatile. For every Akeen Springs, there was a Brock Stull, Alihan Demir, and Both Gach.

@GopherWeatherGuy - You talk about how good of a job Shrewsberry has done compared to Ben and how superior he is, and then in other threads, when posters mention the improved play, you pull out, "We lost to a historically worse Penn State program at home, this is an embarrassment."

Which is it?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this team will be okay and be fun again very soon. Bookmark it.
Click to expand...
I’ll take shrewsberry in the portal reloading after some successful campaigns and growing their young talent over the course of 3 years over our no guard roster. Shrewsberry has shown he can coach. CBJ can’t.

So, blanket trust in Shrewsberry next year or hoping CBJ doesn’t end up with the worst 3 year run in the history of the gophers program…and he has no track record of winning anywhere. Give me Shrewsberry.

Fast forward to 2024-25 the gophers will have these guys as srs: fox, ihnen, battle and I’m assuming Garcia is already making money in Europe playing as at some point he has diminishing returns the longer he stays in college. Plus, we still have no point guards (maybe Asuma a 3* but that would be very difficult for him to succeed as a freshmen).

The good for the gophers future roster *thinking more than next year*
JOJ, Payne, Garcia (SO), Evans, Christie,

Wild cards: Henley, Betts -

*the above still has major major issues at guard spots and CBJ will have a horrendous track record to pitch to portal players
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yes I would take Shrewsberry and Penn St's roster over Johnson and our future roster.

Both this year's freshman class and next year's class are ranked higher than ours.
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That's a LIE.

Penn State has 3 recruits in their 2023 class. 2 are unranked...with no other offers that stand out much. And the other is ranked #90.

Minnesota has Evans ranked #11 and Christie ranked #139.
 




topos said:
I'm not saying Ben hasn't made mistakes and doesn't have work to do (primarily getting a true PG in the portal). I'd wager a healthy sum; we will be significantly better than Penn State next year.
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The DMs are open!!! When a team that might go 1-20 in league is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than a team mid pack the following year I'm always down to take that bet! Let's put that money where the mouth is
 

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bmb5270 said:
I love the points you make. Penn State has obviously been much better than the Gophs but probably won’t make the tournament then has to virtually start over next year.
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And if you live by the portal you are always starting over.
 



Ewert86PC said:
The thing is that this meager praise is enough to set this team back twice as far.

I don't think you recognize your role in the "one step forward, two steps back" dynamic of rewarding mediocrity.

It is not changing to better situation. There needs to be consistent steps forward and that takes focus and determination. Constant praise of such a desperately needy team serves to set the team back. The team has to keep improving and praise be damned right now.
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I have no power to either reward or punish mediocrity.

I have watched everyone who wore maroon and gold from Lou Hudson, Archie Clarke, and Don Yates to Treyton Thompson and Taurus Samuels. They are my guys because they are Gophers.

As a consequence I look for positives even in the worst of times.
 


MennoSota said:
The level of expectation for the 2023-24 season will be contingent upon whether a true point guard is added to the roster this spring.
We have a solid core of forwards and shooting guards, but we have no true floor general who can demand attention with the dribble drive. If we get that piece, then I expect a significant uptick to middle of the pack B1G and a potential invitation to the dance.
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Who on Earth are you talking about? The SG on this team are Samuels, Ramberg, and Carrington. Carrington could develop into a good role player, but who is your “solid core” that we’re building around? Or are you pre-anointing Christie?
 

Dakota2 said:
I have no power to either reward or punish mediocrity.

I have watched everyone who wore maroon and gold from Lou Hudson, Archie Clarke, and Don Yates to Treyton Thompson and Taurus Samuels. They are my guys because they are Gophers.

As a consequence I look for positives even in the worst of times.
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I really don't think you understand.

I am an alumni, the son of an alumnus. The Minnesota mentality of looking for positives and thinking "maybe next year" is what rewards mediocrity because it weakens strengths and keep weaknesses from being strengthened.

People love to claim the basketball program has no identity and it is true because it has never been held to on-the-court standards of play like 50% FG shooting, 90% FT shooting, 35% 3-point shooting, following up on shots, grabbing offensive rebounds.

When standards are applied they are off court standards, appeasing the administration and faculty to the detriment of the players and the program.

The last twenty years of basketball incompetence has erased my "looking for positives" approach because every time there is an on-the-court improvement it is followed by off-the-court violations. It's like the administration yanks the program's chain once it starts succeeding. If you doubt that, then look back at how Kimberly Hewitt, the Head of the EEOA, threatened Jerry Kill about the behavior of the football program. Then tell me that wouldn't be easily applied to the MBB program. Presto! We have the 2016 MBB scandal.

The time for change is now, from the administration and faculty to let the basketball programs, and the athletic department, in general, have more control over their destinies.
 


Dakota2 said:
I have no power to either reward or punish mediocrity.

I have watched everyone who wore maroon and gold from Lou Hudson, Archie Clarke, and Don Yates to Treyton Thompson and Taurus Samuels. They are my guys because they are Gophers.

As a consequence I look for positives even in the worst of times.
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A real fan 👍💯🎉
 

forever a gopher said:
Who on Earth are you talking about? The SG on this team are Samuels, Ramberg, and Carrington. Carrington could develop into a good role player, but who is your “solid core” that we’re building around? Or are you pre-anointing Christie?
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He’s referring to Henley, Carrington, and Christie. Honestly Cooper moved over and played there a bunch this year too. In all honesty in our offense (pretty much any and every college offense nowadays to be honest) there is no difference between a “SG” and “SF”.
 

forever a gopher said:
Who on Earth are you talking about? The SG on this team are Samuels, Ramberg, and Carrington. Carrington could develop into a good role player, but who is your “solid core” that we’re building around? Or are you pre-anointing Christie?
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Yep. We don't have a single good Big Ten guard on this team. We have potential I like- in Henley but he can't shoot right now, even though I believe he will. Christie is another who I think will be good. But the coach cannot rest the future on maybes. He has to go get some kids with some quickness who can play now at this level. We can't keep losing at this pace and expect to recover. We are building a brand as the worst team in the Big Ten and that brand is going to get sticky with recruits. He has to make a run at a berth in the NCAAs next year.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
He’s referring to Henley, Carrington, and Christie. Honestly Cooper moved over and played there a bunch this year too. In all honesty in our offense (pretty much any and every college offense nowadays to be honest) there is no difference between a “SG” and “SF”.
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That’s because most teams roll out a minimum of 3 guard lineups, while we roll out a 1 guard 4 forward lineup.

There’s still a big difference between a guard and a forward.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
That’s because most teams roll out a minimum of 3 guard lineups, while we roll out a 1 guard 4 forward lineup.
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Do they roll out 3 guard line ups or is it just how modern offenses are ran?

GopherWeatherGuy said:
There’s still a big difference between a guard and a forward.
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Depending on what you are wanting and needing from the player sure. I believe “PF” still exist and they are different from guards but I don’t think there is any schematic or even skilled difference between a SG and SF anymore. They are just wings or “guards” if that term makes you feel better.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Do they roll out 3 guard line ups or is it just how modern offenses are ran?


Depending on what you are wanting and needing from the player sure. I believe “PF” still exist and they are different from guards but I don’t think there is any schematic or even skilled difference between a SG and SF anymore. They are just wings or “guards” if that term makes you feel better.
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It is what modern offenses run, but it's not what we run. We're one of the worst P6 teams in the country because we're trying to run an offense from 1993 instead of 2023.
 


Gopherfan84 said:
He’s referring to Henley, Carrington, and Christie. Honestly Cooper moved over and played there a bunch this year too. In all honesty in our offense (pretty much any and every college offense nowadays to be honest) there is no difference between a “SG” and “SF”.
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I would disagree with that, especially at the college level. The lines may get blurred a bit in the pros, but that's mostly because the way the game has changed, most positions can hit an outside shot reliably, and a high percentage of the players have elite quickness. At the college game, there are bigger differences between positions. Battle is really a 4, but CBJ is playing him at the 3. Then by your definition, he is the same as a 2. He would get burned constantly trying to defend a quick guard.

Henley is a 3, but playing the 2 due to the fact that we have all forwards and no guards on this team. Even if we say your assertation is true, and that we're counting Henley as a 2, then he's a lot less far along than we've already been discussing. I've posted this before, but he's shooting 33% from 2, 25% from 3 and 57% from FT. If he's being tasked with being a SG, he's going to have to improve his shooting percentages drastically, and increase his ballhandling skills.

Until we see Christie in person, we can't reliably count him as anything. Maybe he comes in and is immediately a 10ppg/4ast kind of player out of the gate. Or maybe he's like Henley and is a 31% FG shooter. Don't know until you get him here.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
I’ll take shrewsberry in the portal reloading after some successful campaigns and growing their young talent over the course of 3 years over our no guard roster. Shrewsberry has shown he can coach. CBJ can’t.

So, blanket trust in Shrewsberry next year or hoping CBJ doesn’t end up with the worst 3 year run in the history of the gophers program…and he has no track record of winning anywhere. Give me Shrewsberry.

Fast forward to 2024-25 the gophers will have these guys as srs: fox, ihnen, battle and I’m assuming Garcia is already making money in Europe playing as at some point he has diminishing returns the longer he stays in college. Plus, we still have no point guards (maybe Asuma a 3* but that would be very difficult for him to succeed as a freshmen).

The good for the gophers future roster *thinking more than next year*
JOJ, Payne, Garcia (SO), Evans, Christie,

Wild cards: Henley, Betts -

*the above still has major major issues at guard spots and CBJ will have a horrendous track record to pitch to portal players
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Carrington doesn't even get wild card status? You are that willing to close the book on a true freshman already...

And you are making a lot of assumptions on the makup of future rosters at a time when roster turnover is at an unprecedented level across all of basketball and football.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
That’s because most teams roll out a minimum of 3 guard lineups, while we roll out a 1 guard 4 forward lineup.

There’s still a big difference between a guard and a forward.
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Positinless basketball, dont ya know.
 


BarnBurner said:
Positinless basketball, dont ya know.
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If you want to read some funny threads, look at some of them from this offseason where people voiced concern about not signing any wings.

It's actually pretty funny. There is a lot of "well, Ben's the coach, he doesn't seem concerned and I trust him more than you" and things where they compare Samuels to Willis.

It's funny.
 

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