Point Guard

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skyman31

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I see a lot of comments around how we need to address the point guard position, and how Cooper isn’t a big ten level point guard. I’m really surprised by this, as my takeaway from watching the games is that Cooper (at least offensively) is probably the least of our problems. What are people’s main concerns with him?

He averages 10 a game on 43% from the field and 53% from 3. He averages 7 assists a game, good for 5th in the country and 2nd in the big 10. Assists aren’t necessarily the best indicator of passing ability, but that, combined with what I see watching the games, and knowing that he’s putting up these numbers while having Battle as the only person on the court who’s consistently knocked down outside shots is really impressive to me. He generates offense off of pick and rolls, consistently finds open players, doesn’t force shots, and seems to know his limits as a scorer.

2.6 turnovers per game isn’t great, but he’s still 5th in the big 10 in assist/TO ratio. Defensively, there’s some room to grow both in effort level and ability to guard quicker offensive players.

When we had a point guard who was capable of generating instant offense (Marcus carr) people complained about the lack of hall movement. Now, we have a true pass-first point guard, people still complain. It feels like the argument in football where if an offense is bad, the quarterback must suck. Just because our offense is bad doesn’t mean the point guard is.

Maybe I’m missing something, but people seem to just say “we need someone quick” without any justification why he isn’t quick enough, or “he should play off the ball” (???) when he’s been a point guard his whole career and simply isn’t a volume shooter.

I really really don’t understand the hate here. There’s room to improve, but the idea that “we’re a point guard away” feels really wrong to me. Someone tell me what I’m missing.
 

Would a point guard comparable to a Pistol Pete Minnesota or Majic be available? That would be a nice way to start us off.
 

Losing is always the point guard’s fault. Too much or too little. Too slow or out of control. Can’t finish or takes too many shots.

The observable flaw in his game is that his man gets to the basket too easily. That has killed us this year.
 


Yeah Cooper on offense is the least of our problems.

I swear I read on here that his ideal position is a small ball SF. GH is filled with passionate idiots but that might be the worst take I've seen on here.
 


After watching 2-3 or his games last season, Cooper is about what I expected. Slow, methodical, not a slasher, OK shooter, fair from the line, can find the open guy and a liability of D. Definitely not a Willis with the ball but about the same as him on D. So overall, I expected a drop off compared to Willis.

Ben must find another PG next season whether Cooper stays or leaves.. As Holy Man stated His lack of D hurts and his deficiences can not be covered up. He just isn't quick enough against the dribble and as it looks as though he doesn't recover off ball because of effort. Being on a team where the FR make D mistakes and D not being Garcia's strength, merely adds to our overall problem.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
After watching 2-3 or his games last season, Cooper is about what I expected. Slow, methodical, not a slasher, OK shooter, fair from the line, can find the open guy and a liability of D. Definitely not a Willis with the ball but about the same as him on D. So overall, I expected a drop off compared to Willis.
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The drop off has been big.
Bayfieldgopher said:
Ben must find another PG next season whether Cooper stays or leaves.. As Holy Man stated His lack of D hurts and his deficiences can not be covered up. He just isn't quick enough against the dribble and as it looks as though he doesn't recover off ball because of effort. Being on a team where the FR make D mistakes and D not being Garcia's strength, merely adds to our overall problem.
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Yep. Good post. Cooper is not THE problem, it's just that he is not a Big Ten PG. He's not at all a bad basketball player in fact he has some really good aspects to his game. Fit is the issue.
 

Cooper doesn’t bother me on offense. He’s more Magic Johnson (tall, slow, pass first, needs the puck& roll to gain an advantage with the ball) than Tiny Archibald (quick, penetrating, drive & dish specialist). He has shown much better shooting than I expected, but his pass-first mentality means he passes up many open shots. I actually like his passing, we just have guys that aren’t making them right now. I realize picking Cooper’s man with a guard or wing is just going to result in a switch, but none of our posts have ever rolled effectively to the rim. And the hard hedge stops us immediately as Cooper doesn’t have the quickness to get around and chase the retreating defender into the lane.
Cooper kills us on D, though. Too slow to stay in front of his man, which forces our help defenders to collapse; and we don’t rotate well out of help. He doesn’t fight over picks very well, which puts us in help D scramble again.
Separate issue: why is it we get stopped when our pick & roll faces a hard hedge, but when we do it on D we get exposed for easy buckets? Are our athletes just worse? Do they not execute it properly? Or is the hedging scheme poorly coached?
 
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Johnnyboy18 said:
Yeah Cooper on offense is the least of our problems.

I swear I read on here that his ideal position is a small ball SF. GH is filled with passionate idiots but that might be the worst take I've seen on here.
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I argue he should still be a small ball SF in an ideal college basketball program. I’ll provide my analysis after 6 big ten games. His stats this far against weak opponents mean nothing. Give it 6 big10 games. I do like his ability to hit the trey and have been surprised that teams don’t crowd him since he can’t really blow by anyone.
 



I'm gearing-up for 2 years from now when Ben's recruits are juniors & sophomores. We seem to have everything except a PG (unless Christie can really do it).
 

skyman31 said:
I see a lot of comments around how we need to address the point guard position, and how Cooper isn’t a big ten level point guard. I’m really surprised by this, as my takeaway from watching the games is that Cooper (at least offensively) is probably the least of our problems. What are people’s main concerns with him?

He averages 10 a game on 43% from the field and 53% from 3. He averages 7 assists a game, good for 5th in the country and 2nd in the big 10. Assists aren’t necessarily the best indicator of passing ability, but that, combined with what I see watching the games, and knowing that he’s putting up these numbers while having Battle as the only person on the court who’s consistently knocked down outside shots is really impressive to me. He generates offense off of pick and rolls, consistently finds open players, doesn’t force shots, and seems to know his limits as a scorer.

2.6 turnovers per game isn’t great, but he’s still 5th in the big 10 in assist/TO ratio. Defensively, there’s some room to grow both in effort level and ability to guard quicker offensive players.

When we had a point guard who was capable of generating instant offense (Marcus carr) people complained about the lack of hall movement. Now, we have a true pass-first point guard, people still complain. It feels like the argument in football where if an offense is bad, the quarterback must suck. Just because our offense is bad doesn’t mean the point guard is.

Maybe I’m missing something, but people seem to just say “we need someone quick” without any justification why he isn’t quick enough, or “he should play off the ball” (???) when he’s been a point guard his whole career and simply isn’t a volume shooter.

I really really don’t understand the hate here. There’s room to improve, but the idea that “we’re a point guard away” feels really wrong to me. Someone tell me what I’m missing.
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Cooper is a good, complementary point guard. He can pass and he can shoot. He is not quick on either end of the court, getting beat on the defensive end by quicker point guards.

The issue of slow feet requires a team defense and motion off the ball on offense.

What I am saying is that the problems we face are bigger than one position. If Cooper were playing with veteran players around him, we wouldn't have this conversation. However, Cooper is surrounded by kids who aren't valuing each possession. PJ Fleck's mantra in football is "The Ball is the Program." This is true in basketball as well. Eliminating turnovers and grabbing rebounds will win games. Presently our young team turns over the ball far too much and it does not rebound well. This is a recipe for losing.
I haven't looked at the data, but how is Cooper doing in the assists to turnover ratio. That is one measurement to his point guard skills. Second, how is he doing in keeping his opponent off the boards and securing rebounds? These two areas will show us where Cooper lands as a point guard in the B1G.

We win or lose as a team. A team wins or loses based upon turnovers and rebounding. If UMN improves these two areas, they will begin to win more games.
 

MennoSota said:
Cooper is a good, complementary point guard. He can pass and he can shoot. He is not quick on either end of the court, getting beat on the defensive end by quicker point guards.

The issue of slow feet requires a team defense and motion off the ball on offense.

What I am saying is that the problems we face are bigger than one position. If Cooper were playing with veteran players around him, we wouldn't have this conversation. However, Cooper is surrounded by kids who aren't valuing each possession. PJ Fleck's mantra in football is "The Ball is the Program." This is true in basketball as well. Eliminating turnovers and grabbing rebounds will win games. Presently our young team turns over the ball far too much and it does not rebound well. This is a recipe for losing.
I haven't looked at the data, but how is Cooper doing in the assists to turnover ratio. That is one measurement to his point guard skills. Second, how is he doing in keeping his opponent off the boards and securing rebounds? These two areas will show us where Cooper lands as a point guard in the B1G.

We win or lose as a team. A team wins or loses based upon turnovers and rebounding. If UMN improves these two areas, they will begin to win more games.
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Veterans players like Samuels, Garcia, and Battle? Those kinds of veterans.
 

MNJay said:
I'm gearing-up for 2 years from now when Ben's recruits are juniors & sophomores. We seem to have everything except a PG (unless Christie can really do it).
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What's in the MN pg pipeline? Isaac Asuma looked good as a sophomore, last year, but Ben can't wait on him.
 



Can someone please explain to me our current scholarship situation. If I am correct, we are allowed 15 scholarship players by NCAA rules. We currently have 14 players on the roster, so I assume we have 1 open scholarship. Samuels will be gone next year I assume so that will leave 2 open scholarships. We have two players coming in next year so does that mean our scholarships are filled for next year?
 

PhiloVance said:
What's in the MN pg pipeline? Isaac Asuma looked good as a sophomore, last year, but Ben can't wait on him.
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Ben has shown he can reel-in highly ranked recruits from across the country. But you're right, we might not have time to wait for a PG. That's the time we might need a transfer...when we're 1 position away from being good.
 

Crappie said:
Veterans players like Samuels, Garcia, and Battle? Those kinds of veterans.
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How many of those folks were in the same system beyond this season?
Second, tell us how good it would go playing 4 on 5.

Why you ignore the lack of experience can only be because it would cause you to stop being infantile.
 

MennoSota said:
How many of those folks were in the same system beyond this season?
Second, tell us how good it would go playing 4 on 5.

Why you ignore the lack of experience can only be because it would cause you to stop being infantile.
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You said if Cooper was playing with veterans. He is playing with veterans. !!!!!

NOW, it is time in the system. Moving the goalposts.

Stop with your infantile excuses. Cbj said there are no excuses. Why can't you adopt the same mindset as the coach??
 

Crappie said:
You said if Cooper was playing with veterans. He is playing with veterans. !!!!!

NOW, it is time in the system. Moving the goalposts.

Stop with your infantile excuses. Cbj said there are no excuses. Why can't you adopt the same mindset as the coach??
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LOL, you are desperate. 👶🍼
 


There is nothing wrong with Cooper. His speed hinders his upside....but he's absolutely serviceable as a Big Ten point guard. But we desperately need another ball handler. Hopefully we net a good transfer.
 



stocker08 said:
There is nothing wrong with Cooper. His speed hinders his upside....but he's absolutely serviceable as a Big Ten point guard. But we desperately need another ball handler. Hopefully we net a good transfer.
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He doesn't make anyone around him better.
 



Crappie said:
Perhaps.

Accurate.
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Not "perhaps". Cooper has some limitations. But complaining that he "doesn't make anyone around him better" is utter nonsense. Cooper isn't dynamic enough to force help defense....leaving other guys on the team wide open. Has nothing to do with making the other guys on the team "better".
 

stocker08 said:
Not "perhaps". Cooper has some limitations. But complaining that he "doesn't make anyone around him better" is utter nonsense. Cooper isn't dynamic enough to force help defense....leaving other guys on the team wide open. Has nothing to do with making the other guys on the team "better".
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Stating a fact is not complaining.

His play doesn't get open shots for others. Good shooter. Not much else.
 

Crappie said:
Stating a fact is not complaining.

His play doesn't get open shots for others. Good shooter. Not much else.
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It's not a fact...because it's all subjective. Not only that....but his ability to "make other players better" is vague and doesn't even mean a whole lot. If you want to say that he doesn't get other guys on the court enough open shots....say that. But he's not making anyone better or worse.
 



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