Next Gopher Head Coach

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forever a gopher said:
My concern with Gates is he only has two years of HC experience. It would be a bit of "learn on the job", which is what Pitino had to do with only 1 year experience prior. At the B1G level, it would seem we could get a coach that's already gone through the growing pains of figuring out what it is to be a head coach and can hit the ground running.

Seems like a decent candidate to bring in for an interview at least, and maybe he'll gel well with Coyle.
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Good post. Don't get me wrong, I'm a little in love with Gates. But both Smith and Medved have longer track records and have now elevated multiple programs in different parts of the country.

Much of this still comes down to approach: are you looking for the most sure thing, or are you looking for the highest ceiling? Or are you diversifying your portfolio and looking for some of both, in which case are you likely to get not enough of either? Not that you make a decision based on this, but I always ask the question: does the guy you're hiring have hall-of-fame potential? It's like a top-10 NFL draft pick: if the guy you pick doesn't have HOF potential, you picked the wrong guy.
 
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Bad Gopher said:
Good post. Don't get me wrong, I'm a little in love with Gates. But both Smith and Medved have longer track records and have now elevated multiple programs in different parts of the country.

Much of this still comes down to approach: are you looking for the most sure thing, or are you looking for the highest ceiling? Or are you diversifying your portfolio and looking for some of both, in which case are you likely to get not enough of either? Not that you make a decision based on this, but I always ask the question: does the guy you're hiring have hall-of-fame potential? It's like a top-10 NFL draft pick: if they guy you pick doesn't have HOF potential, you picked the wrong guy.
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I'd take any one of them. I also don't think the next coach needs HOF potential to elevate our program to respectability. This program has lacked consistency for the past 20 years. Just hire ANY coach that is going to come in with a plan, build relationships with our HS coaches and AAU coaches and work relentlessly to get us on the right path. Top 25 team every year should be the expectation.
 

bigyetti18 said:
I'd take any one of them. I also don't think the next coach needs HOF potential to elevate our program to respectability. This program has lacked consistency for the past 20 years. Just hire ANY coach that is going to come in with a plan, build relationships with our HS coaches and AAU coaches and work relentlessly to get us on the right path. Top 25 team every year should be the expectation.
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I wouldn't go as far as hiring anybody...we just did that with Pitino and he has the Pitino name...that didn't really work. Pitino had a plan and is the type of guy who can build relationships as we probably all can agree he's a likeable guy.

Personally I want someone who has shown the ability to win, recruit, coach up players, and understands all aspects of the game at the highest level.
 

Odd that nobody has put an official game thread for tonight. Guess we tired of losing
 

tmvander said:
I wouldn't go as far as hiring anybody...we just did that with Pitino and he has the Pitino name...that didn't really work. Pitino had a plan and is the type of guy who can build relationships as we probably all can agree he's a likeable guy.

Personally I want someone who has shown the ability to win, recruit, coach up players, and understands all aspects of the game at the highest level.
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I want a coach who can coach up his players. Honestly we don't need a fleck, we need a jerry kill type hire.

Our history shows that we are very unlikely to land top MN talent, for the exception of a random year here and there.

You get a coach in here who will "consistently" turn 3 starts in 1st team or 2nd team big ten player and the we'll start to have a shot at landing the top 3 instate recruits.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Good post. Don't get me wrong, I'm a little in love with Gates. But both Smith and Medved have longer track records and have now elevated multiple programs in different parts of the country.

Much of this still comes down to approach: are you looking for the most sure thing, or are you looking for the highest ceiling? Or are you diversifying your portfolio and looking for some of both, in which case are you likely to get not enough of either? Not that you make a decision based on this, but I always ask the question: does the guy you're hiring have hall-of-fame potential? It's like a top-10 NFL draft pick: if they guy you pick doesn't have HOF potential, you picked the wrong guy.
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This is such a good question. For example, to me the Wolves should only draft players with MASSIVE ceilings. I dont want a guy who is going to be a good pro for 10 years. I want Kevin Garnett/Lebron James/etc, That franchise is NEVER going to sign/trade for a top 5 player, thus you have to draft them. So take swings, if they whiff well that sucks but drafting a so so guy means instead of 25-57 you go 32-50, both suck. If you take a high upside guy and he wiffs sure maybe you go 15-67 but who cares about those 10 wins, if you take a guy who is a star you can go 55-27 pretty quick. Now that is pro vs college. I am generally all about upside which would be a Gates/Medved type but they could certainly turn out like RP did. Thats why I have leaned towards a Bielein type. Sure at this age and being out of the game a bit there is probably an upside cap, but I just imagine a Beilein team ever going 54-92 in conference play. A consistent team that finishes 4-9th in conf every year would be pretty nice. Considering we have accepted 8-13th most years.....
 

leib0039 said:
This is such a good question. For example, to me the Wolves should only draft players with MASSIVE ceilings. I dont want a guy who is going to be a good pro for 10 years. I want Kevin Garnett/Lebron James/etc, That franchise is NEVER going to sign/trade for a top 5 player, thus you have to draft them. So take swings, if they whiff well that sucks but drafting a so so guy means instead of 25-57 you go 32-50, both suck. If you take a high upside guy and he wiffs sure maybe you go 15-67 but who cares about those 10 wins, if you take a guy who is a star you can go 55-27 pretty quick. Now that is pro vs college. I am generally all about upside which would be a Gates/Medved type but they could certainly turn out like RP did. Thats why I have leaned towards a Bielein type. Sure at this age and being out of the game a bit there is probably an upside cap, but I just imagine a Beilein team ever going 54-92 in conference play. A consistent team that finishes 4-9th in conf every year would be pretty nice. Considering we have accepted 8-13th most years.....
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Ha oh God please don't have me thinking T-Wolves draft history with this new hire...if we hire anything like they draft we're in for a long life as gopher basketball fans
 

tmvander said:
Ha oh God please don't have me thinking T-Wolves draft history with this new hire...if we hire anything like they draft we're in for a long life as gopher basketball fans
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I wish we kept Lavine and Wiggs and never hired Tibs or Ryan. Sam Mitchell might have done an amazing job with that squad
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
I want a coach who can coach up his players. Honestly we don't need a fleck, we need a jerry kill type hire.

Our history shows that we are very unlikely to land top MN talent, for the exception of a random year here and there.

You get a coach in here who will "consistently" turn 3 starts in 1st team or 2nd team big ten player and the we'll start to have a shot at landing the top 3 instate recruits.
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This is s loser's mentality, not to mention untrue. Pitino is the first coach of any length of tenure in my lifetime to not land 5-star talent. You're probably the victim of recency bias.
 



Bad Gopher said:
This is s loser's mentality, not to mention untrue. Pitino is the first coach of any length of tenure in my lifetime to not land 5-star talent. You're probably the victim of recency bias.
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He also failed at this at a time when MN is producing more high end players every single year than were produced across decades in previous eras.

I don't care where the players come from, but (in theory) our best chance to land really high end recruits is if they are local. If we have a 5% chance of landing Holmgren, we had a zero % chance of landing James Wiseman.
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is s loser's mentality, not to mention untrue. Pitino is the first coach of any length of tenure in my lifetime to not land 5-star talent. You're probably the victim of recency bias.
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Wasn't it when Pitino landed Amir he was the highest rated recruit since Humphries? Or was Royce or Rodney higher? But I do agree while he's landed a couple top 50/100 guys, he's missed on a ton given how many shots he's had here with top flight talent
 

upnorthkid said:
Wasn't it when Pitino landed Amir he was the highest rated recruit since Humphries? Or was Royce or Rodney higher? But I do agree while he's landed a couple top 50/100 guys, he's missed on a ton given how many shots he's had here with top flight talent
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I believe Royce was higher.
 




Bad Gopher said:
This is s loser's mentality, not to mention untrue. Pitino is the first coach of any length of tenure in my lifetime to not land 5-star talent. You're probably the victim of recency bias.
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5 star talent or 5 star rated players.

In the internet era we've only landed one 5 star rated player. that was Humphries back in 99 I believe.

Beyond that we've landed twelve 4 star recruits

Royce White
Daniel Oturu
Amir Coffey
Rodney Williams
Isaiah Washington
Ralph Sampson III
Isaiah Ihnen
Lawrence Westbrook
Spencer Tollackson
Andre Hollins
Colton Iverson
Wesley Washington

My point was centered more around the fact that MN has become a breeding ground for 5 star talent as of late and for us to land those players, who presumably want to go to the NBA, we need to show we can coach them up.

Kill was known for coaching up many low rated recruits. PJ gets better talent so far and is getting good performance from the players he's recruited, BUT, has he gotten most of them to OUT PERFORM their star rating?
 

tmvander said:
I wouldn't go as far as hiring anybody...we just did that with Pitino and he has the Pitino name...that didn't really work. Pitino had a plan and is the type of guy who can build relationships as we probably all can agree he's a likeable guy.

Personally I want someone who has shown the ability to win, recruit, coach up players, and understands all aspects of the game at the highest level.
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Pitino has had no plan and he does not know how to build a program. I would hire anybody, that is how bad I think he is. Look at his record and look at the decisions he has made over the past 8 years.

In terms of relationships the first thing he did when he arrived was alienate the HS coaches association. He is not a relationship builder. He get's out worked because he's never had to work his entire life.
 

bigyetti18 said:
Pitino has had no plan and he does not know how to build a program. I would hire anybody, that is how bad I think he is. Look at his record and look at the decisions he has made over the past 8 years.

In terms of relationships the first thing he did when he arrived was alienate the HS coaches association. He is not a relationship builder. He get's out worked because he's never had to work his entire life.
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Not arguing with your assessment of Pitino just not wanting us to go down the exact same path again with the new coach.
 

Some more fun data: All since 84-85 season. I know for some that doesn't seem a long time ago, its about 36 years.

Number of Big Ten Player of the year at MN: 1
Bobby Jackson 96-97

All Big Ten First Team: 7
Nate Mason 16-17
Vincent Grier 04-05
Kris Humphries 03-04
Rick Rickert 02-03
Quincy Lewis 98-99
Bobby Jackson 96-97
Willie Burton 89-90

All Big Ten Second Team: 4
Daniel Oturu 19-20
Jordan Murphy 18-19
Trevor Mbwake 10-11
Rick Ricker 01-02

All Big Ten Third Team: 7 (got tired of writing the names)

All Big Ten Honorable Mention: 17

Big Ten Tournament Most Outstanding Player: 0

Big Ten All Tournament Team: 5

All Big Ten Freshman Team: 4
16-17 1
15-16 1
04-05 1
03-04 1

If I'm a highly rated recruit (in-state or not) and I look at these numbers, it tells me a few things.

1) odds are I wont play much my freshman year (All Big Ten Freshman Team)
2) The program is not know for developing Big Ten players of the year or All Big First Team (if im a highly ranked recruit, I want to be the best, why i would only look at 1st team)
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
5 star talent or 5 star rated players.

In the internet era we've only landed one 5 star rated player. that was Humphries back in 99 I believe.

Beyond that we've landed twelve 4 star recruits

Royce White
Daniel Oturu
Amir Coffey
Rodney Williams
Isaiah Washington
Ralph Sampson III
Isaiah Ihnen
Lawrence Westbrook
Spencer Tollackson
Andre Hollins
Colton Iverson
Wesley Washington

My point was centered more around the fact that MN has become a breeding ground for 5 star talent as of late and for us to land those players, who presumably want to go to the NBA, we need to show we can coach them up.

Kill was known for coaching up many low rated recruits. PJ gets better talent so far and is getting good performance from the players he's recruited, BUT, has he gotten most of them to OUT PERFORM their star rating?
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I meant what I said: 5-star talent either before or after Rivals started rating them. Both Pryzbilla and Rickert were ranked in the top 5 nationally. Royce White and Kris Humphries were both five stars as well. Jim Dutcher recruited several McDonalds all-americans, and Musselman got high-end talent as well, Jim Brewer probably being the top rated among them. Pitino hasn't sniffed that kind of recruiting success, and he's had the most bountiful crop of local/regional talent in this area's history.
 

upnorthkid said:
Wasn't it when Pitino landed Amir he was the highest rated recruit since Humphries? Or was Royce or Rodney higher? But I do agree while he's landed a couple top 50/100 guys, he's missed on a ton given how many shots he's had here with top flight talent
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Not sure about Royce versus Humphries, but I remember Williams being a consensus 4 star. If I'm mistaken, and he was a 5, then add him to the list of reasons why saying Minnesota can't attract top talent is a loser's copout.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Not sure about Royce versus Humphries, but I remember Williams being a consensus 4 star. If I'm mistaken, and he was a 5, then add him to the list of reasons why saying Minnesota can't attract top talent is a loser's copout.
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Plus with Amir you had the legacy aspect. In state Oturu is the crowning achievement, otherwise batting well below the Mendoza line.
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is s loser's mentality, not to mention untrue. Pitino is the first coach of any length of tenure in my lifetime to not land 5-star talent. You're probably the victim of recency bias.
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This is true and the fact of the matter is, he has failed recruiting in state the last 5-7 years when we have had some of the very best classes this state has ever produced.

I don't care what people say about big names will never stay home. You have to get AT LEAST one or 2 of them. Both Jones kids, Suggs, Reid Travis, Macura, Nnaji, Holmgren, Garcia, Hurt, Terry.

Didn't get a single one of them. All were difference makers at their school of choice. Coffey was OK, Oturo was good. But we didn't surround them and they left because they knew they had no real shot of winning anything substantial after being here a couple year.
 

In the end if you can't get the local top talent, you better get equivalents from out of state. He hasn't and now we're transfer U. He's not getting fired based on this year alone. It's that he's had a losing B1G record 7 of 8 years. One will say the B1G was tough this year, but what was the excuse the other 6 losing seasons? Injuries? Recruit and have more depth. Have kids that are willing to red-shirt and ready to play roles and step in. He has no culture for a program after 8 years. Need a guy with a strong culture that starts to win and then better recruits see the value of being a Gopher.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I meant what I said: 5-star talent either before or after Rivals started rating them. Both Pryzbilla and Rickert were ranked in the top 5 nationally. Royce White and Kris Humphries were both five stars as well. Jim Dutcher recruited several McDonalds all-americans, and Musselman got high-end talent as well, Jim Brewer probably being the top rated among them. Pitino hasn't sniffed that kind of recruiting success, and he's had the most bountiful crop of local/regional talent in this area's history.
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Royce was a 4 star according to 247.

Pre-1984-85 I have no clue. Before my time. I know that, much like football, MN Bball did have consistent success back in the day.

The challenge with that, much like PJ likes to point out. Your average 4-5 star kid today wont know dutcher from Jim Brewer.

Agree, Pitino gets an F for recruiting in-state talent. I would give him a D+ to C- for player development. .
 

Bad Gopher said:
Good post. Don't get me wrong, I'm a little in love with Gates. But both Smith and Medved have longer track records and have now elevated multiple programs in different parts of the country.

Much of this still comes down to approach: are you looking for the most sure thing, or are you looking for the highest ceiling? Or are you diversifying your portfolio and looking for some of both, in which case are you likely to get not enough of either? Not that you make a decision based on this, but I always ask the question: does the guy you're hiring have hall-of-fame potential? It's like a top-10 NFL draft pick: if the guy you pick doesn't have HOF potential, you picked the wrong guy.
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What if your choices do not have a HOF potential coach in the lot? Nearly no one would touch this job post Clem.

Which of the coaches that have been discussed as potential replacements here have HOF potential?
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
Royce was a 4 star according to 247.

Pre-1984-85 I have no clue. Before my time. I know that, much like football, MN Bball did have consistent success back in the day.

The challenge with that, much like PJ likes to point out. Your average 4-5 star kid today wont know dutcher from Jim Brewer.

Agree, Pitino gets an F for recruiting in-state talent. I would give him a D+ to C- for player development. .
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Interesting. He was 5-star on Rivals, and my recollection is that most people thought of him as that. One way or another, he ended up playing like a 5-star guy.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Interesting. He was 5-star on Rivals, and my recollection is that most people thought of him as that. One way or another, he ended up playing like a 5-star guy.
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He transferred to Iowa St. though right? did he ever play one game for us? I dont remember. He was good, was the #16 pick.
 


What Pitino says are the challenges at MN for the bball program. Starts at 42 min then RP answers at 43, but the set up is good, so start at 42.

(edit) some of my favorite quotes:

MN has a DECENT tradition, I wouldn't say it's great
The local fans get upset when you land one of the best in-state kids but don't land the rest, that is one of the challenges of coaching at MN
 
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SanDiegoGopherFan said:

What Pitino says are the challenges at MN for the bball program. Starts at 42 min then RP answers at 43, but the set up is good, so start at 42.

(edit) some of my favorite quotes:

MN has a DECENT tradition, I wouldn't say it's great
The local fans get upset when you land one of the best in-state kids but don't land the rest, that is one of the challenges of coaching at MN
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Except he really doesn't, like everything it's inconsistent. Additionally given the golden age of Minnesota HS basketball he should be graded harshly on the curve.
 

To me, the biggest challenge of coaching at Minnesota is that you play in the Big Ten. Meaning you're going nose to nose with the best coaches in the business game after game. If you don't belong in that fraternity, it's gonna be a challenge.
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
5 star talent or 5 star rated players.

In the internet era we've only landed one 5 star rated player. that was Humphries back in 99 I believe.

Beyond that we've landed twelve 4 star recruits

Royce White
Daniel Oturu
Amir Coffey
Rodney Williams
Isaiah Washington
Ralph Sampson III
Isaiah Ihnen
Lawrence Westbrook
Spencer Tollackson
Andre Hollins
Colton Iverson
Wesley Washington

My point was centered more around the fact that MN has become a breeding ground for 5 star talent as of late and for us to land those players, who presumably want to go to the NBA, we need to show we can coach them up.

Kill was known for coaching up many low rated recruits. PJ gets better talent so far and is getting good performance from the players he's recruited, BUT, has he gotten most of them to OUT PERFORM their star rating?
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Decided to look up how we compare to Wisconsin for the 5 and 4 stars recruits since internet era (2000 according to 247). It was very interesting when you see the talent they have gotten relative to the success of their teams.

5 stars: WI 2 MN 1

4 stars: WI 15 MN 12

So WI landed 1 extra 5 star and 3 extra 4 stars.

Should 4 extra players equate to such a massive difference in team success?
 

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