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stocker08 said:
I never said that there weren't examples of coaches making quick turnarounds. Never once said it. All I've said is that there are a lot of factors that go into it....and using it as a judge of a coaches ability is silly.

Shrewsberry is obviously a good coach. My point is that building a competitive roster from scraps is easier said than done....and shouldn't be used as a barometer.

Ben Johnson is absolutely on the hot seat. Another thing that I never denied. His tenure is tied to his sophomore class. He went heavy with five HS players in that class and if they can't compete next year....he'll probably be gone.
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Roster construction is THE most important thing, especially in this day and age. That's why there have been so many quick turnarounds. I didn't hold anything against Ben in year 1 for the shitty record. But we're 6 weeks away from him being done year 3 and there hasn't been any progress.

I'm not sure why you keep clinging to this SO class? It's like a quarter of the roster, and based on last game, doesn't look all that promising.
 

Im firmly in the middle on the Carrington talk that happens a lot on this board(probably slightly more on the optimist side)

I see some people giving him more credit then he deserves/way too much growth optimism. But also a lot of people really sell him short too.

Hes a very solid defender. Not lockdown but hes good and has decent enough size you also cant completely mismatch him on the perimeter/wing. Rebounds well for a guard and gets tough rebounds not just ones that happen to bounce his direction. Low volume but hsi 2pt% is massively improved this year and very good. The shot will likely never be good, nothing to show it will be. But he was 33% last year so its unlikely its THIS bad either.

Hes the type of player that can be very useful on a solid team with better talent around him. Is that paritally is fault that hes not good enough without it? Maybe. But thats really what he is. A glue guy that could potentially help a team with top 25 talent.

Hes a lesser Stevie Mitchell, that could be closer to equal with similar talent around him.

But this is also where its Ben the coaches job to build the roster. Because a player like Carrington isnt gonna work as well when hes playing his first two years with a bunch of guys similar to him in their college experience/rawness.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Roster construction is THE most important thing, especially in this day and age. That's why there have been so many quick turnarounds. I didn't hold anything against Ben in year 1 for the shitty record. But we're 6 weeks away from him being done year 3 and there hasn't been any progress.

I'm not sure why you keep clinging to this SO class? It's like a quarter of the roster, and based on last game, doesn't look all that promising.
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The thing that really strikes me is how we are constantly short on guards.
 

stocker08 said:
Shots made during his freshman year don't carry forward. Would you say that Gabe was a valuable player despite never shooting as well as he did his freshman year? Take out his freshman year and he was about a 30% three point shooter over the remainder of his college career.
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He still was valuable because he could play defense and teams still guarded him. He started every game for ISU and would have for us if he stayed.
 


MUgopher32 said:
Im firmly in the middle on the Carrington talk that happens a lot on this board(probably slightly more on the optimist side)

I see some people giving him more credit then he deserves/way too much growth optimism. But also a lot of people really sell him short too.

Hes a very solid defender. Not lockdown but hes good and has decent enough size you also cant completely mismatch him on the perimeter/wing. Rebounds well for a guard and gets tough rebounds not just ones that happen to bounce his direction. Low volume but hsi 2pt% is massively improved this year and very good. The shot will likely never be good, nothing to show it will be. But he was 33% last year so its unlikely its THIS bad either.

Hes the type of player that can be very useful on a solid team with better talent around him. Is that paritally is fault that hes not good enough without it? Maybe. But thats really what he is. A glue guy that could potentially help a team with top 25 talent.

Hes a lesser Stevie Mitchell, that could be closer to equal with similar talent around him.

But this is also where its Ben the coaches job to build the roster. Because a player like Carrington isnt gonna work as well when hes playing his first two years with a bunch of guys similar to him in their college experience/rawness.
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It's because we don't recruit enough guards. We are forced to either play Carrington too many minutes/outside of his role or we are forced to play a PF at the 3.

I am with you, I think Carrington can be an effective player. He is a really good defensive player and an okay ball handler. He also plays tough. All of that said, he will look exposed when we play him too much and ask too much out of him.
 

Dave H said:
Cool...

So I assume you are talking about the 1988 team correct? (his 3rd year) Well lets see if we can break down how out of date this take is:

Top films of 1988!
Roger Rabbit
Coming to America
Good Morning Vietnam
Big
Crocodile Dundee 2

Top Albums of 1988!
Journey - Greatest Hits
Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman
Bon Jovi - New Jersey
Paula Abdul - Forever Your Girl
New Kids on the Block - Hanging Tough

I do enjoy that you think things that happened almost 40 years ago are somehow relevant now.
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I will say though, that the 1988 Mercedes 560 SEC is still a killer car!
 

stocker08 said:
Three wins in 13 P6 games. Gophers have only played 9 P6 games. I'll let you do the math there.

More importantly....you posted about Shrewsberry turning a program around in your attempt to show how easy it is. So did Shrewsberry become a bad coach from the end of last season to this season? How wasn't he able to replicate his early success at Penn State.

Talk about a faceplant.
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At least they are willing to play a nonconference with meaning, plus his recent track record of success is better than CBJ's history of zero success. It buys him some grace with the fanbase.
 

stocker08 said:
Gabe shot .245 from three in his final year with the Gophers. That was with over five attempts per game. Shot .235 from three in his first year at Iowa State.

People tend to be far more critical in the moment and forget. Gabe took a TON of flack from Gophers fans.....same way that people are attempting to trash Carrington because it fits the narrative.
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Gabe was pretty atrocious from beyond the arc, he stretched the definition of bad... but Carrington literally couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. At some point, we need to deem that he isn't in a funk, and that he can't shoot, the %'s don't lie.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
They're not, and you're wrong.

Even if they did pay his full buyout, stating the Gophers couldn't afford it is laughable.
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If all buyouts are bogus and you can just wish them away...well, those are some pretty bad contracts.

The Pitino situation was different...he brokered a deal to get one more year.

Does the U of M either have the money or access to it? Absolutely, yes. The same administration cut non-revenue sports because they couldn't "afford" them. Paying a buyout to fire a coach without a booster to pick up the tab will be a tough sell for Coyle to administration. He can blame it on the committee but that's cutting off the support of those people and would seem foolish to do so. He's the one who approved the contract making it more difficult to advocate spending the money. So, Ben gets a fourth year for these reasons and more that have nothing to do with basketball.
 


60's Guy said:
If all buyouts are bogus and you can just wish them away...well, those are some pretty bad contracts.

The Pitino situation was different...he brokered a deal to get one more year.

Does the U of M either have the money or access to it? Absolutely, yes. The same administration cut non-revenue sports because they couldn't "afford" them. Paying a buyout to fire a coach without a booster to pick up the tab will be a tough sell for Coyle to administration. He can blame it on the committee but that's cutting off the support of those people and would seem foolish to do so. He's the one who approved the contract making it more difficult to advocate spending the money. So, Ben gets a fourth year for these reasons and more that have nothing to do with basketball.
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The program is dead. The attendance is awful. Saving $$ is not a reason to keep a dead coach walking for a fourth year. The longer they leave the program comatose the more $$$ they lose long-term.
 
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Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Gabe was pretty atrocious from beyond the arc, he stretched the definition of bad... but Carrington literally couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. At some point, we need to deem that he isn't in a funk, and that he can't shoot, the %'s don't lie.
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I'm willing to bet both guys can shoot when nobody's watching.
 



howeda7 said:
The program is dead. The attendance is awful. Saving $$ is not a reason to keep a dead coach waking for a fourth year. The longer they leave the program comatose the more $$$ they lose long-term.
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It costs more money to fire Ben and hire a new coach than the lost revenue from ticket sales.
 

60's Guy said:
If all buyouts are bogus and you can just wish them away...well, those are some pretty bad contracts.

The Pitino situation was different...he brokered a deal to get one more year.

Does the U of M either have the money or access to it? Absolutely, yes. The same administration cut non-revenue sports because they couldn't "afford" them. Paying a buyout to fire a coach without a booster to pick up the tab will be a tough sell for Coyle to administration. He can blame it on the committee but that's cutting off the support of those people and would seem foolish to do so. He's the one who approved the contract making it more difficult to advocate spending the money. So, Ben gets a fourth year for these reasons and more that have nothing to do with basketball.
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Buyouts are not all bogus. There is a clause in Ben's contract that states that if he takes another assistant, or head coaching job, there is no buyout. That opens up a giant loophole for the Gophers to get out of the buyout, the same way they did with Pitino.
 

60's Guy said:
It costs more money to fire Ben and hire a new coach than the lost revenue from ticket sales.
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Not really. His buyout doesn't magically go away a year from now. There will always be a buyout. The cost of firing him now is only the difference in how much it goes down in one year.

So if they average 8,000 per game next year instead of 4,000: 4,000 x 18 x $50 = $3.6 million in additional revenue. Ben's buyout doesn't go down by $3.6 million between now and one year from now. Even if the extra revenue is half of that amount, it's probably no worse than a wash and you didn't flush another year down the toilet spinning your wheels.
 

howeda7 said:
Not really. His buyout doesn't magically go away a year from now. There will always be a buyout. The cost of firing him now is only the difference in how much it goes down in one year.

So if they average 8,000 per game next year instead of 4,000: 4,000 x 18 x $50 = $3.6 million in additional revenue. Ben's buyout doesn't go down by $3.6 million between now and one year from now. Even if the extra revenue is half of that amount, it's probably no worse than a wash and you didn't flush another year down the toilet spinning your wheels.
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I agree with you. I hope they do. I'm in no way fighting for Ben to stay. I just don't believe he's going to get fired after this season.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Buyouts are not all bogus. There is a clause in Ben's contract that states that if he takes another assistant, or head coaching job, there is no buyout. That opens up a giant loophole for the Gophers to get out of the buyout, the same way they did with Pitino.
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I'm relatively confident the language in Ben's case says the salary of his new job is deducted from the amount owed to him by the Gophers. Not that like magic the obligation to pay him is forgiven. Think about it....how dumb would you have to be to agree to that?
 

60's Guy said:
I'm relatively confident the language in Ben's case says the salary of his new job is deducted from the amount owed to him by the Gophers. Not that like magic the obligation to pay him is forgiven. Think about it....how dumb would you have to be to agree to that?
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There's usually offset but it could have been negotiated that way in exchange for him getting the "going rate for a B1G coach" of $2.5 million a year and not half of that which is what he probably deserved.
 


One other thing I'd like to just ask. Now some of the biased Ben backers will use this as some weird way to defend him by saying its the players fault.

But since finding and developing talent is a huge part of being a coach. As the roster stands now.

Of the gophers starters(ill list 6 due to the recent shake up), Hawkins/Mitchell/Christie/Garcia/Payne/JOJ how frequently do you think these guys are starting for teams in the top 6 of the BIG/Big12/BE/SEC??? Like percent of teams wise?

How about the ones that are ranked? Or narrow it even further to the top 3 of each league.

As far as Mitchell and JOJ go I honestly dont know that they start for a single top 6 team in any of those leagues. Payne and Christie im sure could for a handful. Dawson and Hawkins for more than that.

And for the ones in the top 3 of their leagues/top 15 of the rankings. Without doing a full deep dive I legit dont think any of our players could start for any of these teams.

Get minutes? Sure. Even the top ranked teams have depth issues. But like who is Dawson starting for on Kansas? Or Uconn? Or Arizona? Or Kentucky? Same with Hawkins.

Its just tough to argue wait til next year when the 3 year roster development has our best players not even able to crack the top 5 of the really good teams.
 

Nothing like throwing out a question and then not answering your own question. If you're going to make that argument you better go through each starting lineup and say who would start over each player (for top 6 in each conference and top 15 teams).
 

Time to discuss Ben’s contract renewal following his last place finish.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Nothing like throwing out a question and then not answering your own question. If you're going to make that argument you better go through each starting lineup and say who would start over each player (for top 6 in each conference and top 15 teams).
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Umm it wasnt an argument. It was a question. You that daft?

I said what % of top teams do you think our guys would still start for. I didnt provide an argument for or against a given percent. Seeing as you appear to be one of the delusional, I am assuming you might say something outreagous like Mitchell starts for 80% of top 25 teams. That is then when my "argument" will come.

Right now just want your opinion, which apparently is a tall ask.

Feel free to find teams you think they would start on.

I even gave you a baseline with 4 teams.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Roster construction is THE most important thing, especially in this day and age. That's why there have been so many quick turnarounds. I didn't hold anything against Ben in year 1 for the shitty record. But we're 6 weeks away from him being done year 3 and there hasn't been any progress.

I'm not sure why you keep clinging to this SO class? It's like a quarter of the roster, and based on last game, doesn't look all that promising.
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There hasn't been ANY progress!? In the same post you say that you don't see the importance of his first high school class?

These are great takes. No agenda here folks. :oops::LOL:

tikited said:
He still was valuable because he could play defense and teams still guarded him. He started every game for ISU and would have for us if he stayed.
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I agree. So maybe Carrington isn't Kalscheur......but through one and a half years.....are you ready to say that Carrington can't get to that point? They have a similar game and I don't think Carrington is done progressing. Just think there's some revisionist history going on.....because Kalscheur took a lot of the same type of flak when he was here.

howeda7 said:
Not really. His buyout doesn't magically go away a year from now. There will always be a buyout. The cost of firing him now is only the difference in how much it goes down in one year.

So if they average 8,000 per game next year instead of 4,000: 4,000 x 18 x $50 = $3.6 million in additional revenue. Ben's buyout doesn't go down by $3.6 million between now and one year from now. Even if the extra revenue is half of that amount, it's probably no worse than a wash and you didn't flush another year down the toilet spinning your wheels.
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Actual attendance at the games doesn't equal the number of tickets sold. Lol if you think the Gophers sell anywhere near another 4k on average if Johnson is fired. Depending on the coach hired and the players they bring in.....the needle might not move at all.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
That’s the story of most non-shooters.
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I suppose that depends on the level. High school teams, you record shots over a week in drills with nobody guarding anybody. Very big percentage can't shoot. College teams probably better
but you still have a lot of guys who can't shoot.
Ihnen would fit in with Gabe...bet he makes most all shots in a drill.
But, I disagree...most non shooters can't shoot. I think there are far fewer guys like Gabe than guys who just can't shoot. The right coach can fix the guys like Gabe. Where as, I don't care who is teaching them....some people are flat out just incapable of learning how to shoot.
 

MUgopher32 said:
Umm it wasnt an argument. It was a question. You that daft?

I said what % of top teams do you think our guys would still start for. I didnt provide an argument for or against a given percent. Seeing as you appear to be one of the delusional, I am assuming you might say something outreagous like Mitchell starts for 80% of top 25 teams. That is then when my "argument" will come.

Right now just want your opinion, which apparently is a tall ask.

Feel free to find teams you think they would start on.

I even gave you a baseline with 4 teams.
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You didn't even research it, why would I?
 

stocker08 said:
There hasn't been ANY progress!? In the same post you say that you don't see the importance of his first high school class?

These are great takes. No agenda here folks. :oops::LOL:



I agree. So maybe Carrington isn't Kalscheur......but through one and a half years.....are you ready to say that Carrington can't get to that point? They have a similar game and I don't think Carrington is done progressing. Just think there's some revisionist history going on.....because Kalscheur took a lot of the same type of flak when he was here.



Actual attendance at the games doesn't equal the number of tickets sold. Lol if you think the Gophers sell anywhere near another 4k on average if Johnson is fired. Depending on the coach hired and the players they bring in.....the needle might not move at all.
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Agenda? I think I know what you are saying.
 


stocker08 said:
There hasn't been ANY progress!? In the same post you say that you don't see the importance of his first high school class?

These are great takes. No agenda here folks. :oops::LOL:



I agree. So maybe Carrington isn't Kalscheur......but through one and a half years.....are you ready to say that Carrington can't get to that point? They have a similar game and I don't think Carrington is done progressing. Just think there's some revisionist history going on.....because Kalscheur took a lot of the same type of flak when he was here.



Actual attendance at the games doesn't equal the number of tickets sold. Lol if you think the Gophers sell anywhere near another 4k on average if Johnson is fired. Depending on the coach hired and the players they bring in.....the needle might not move at all.
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We are a fringe top 100 team. That isn't progress if you want me to exclude the first couple of seasons, like you tell me to all the time.

And yeah, his 1st HS class has 3 contributors. You act like we are so heavily reliant on this SO class. They only account for a little over 30% of the scoring production, which leaves around 70% for the rest of the roster.

Obviously a coach's first HS class is important, but this class is down to 3 players, and haven't really shown much improvement, as a whole. All these players are basically role players. Which is why the portal is so important, and unfortunately, Ben hasn't proved himself capable of landing and keeping good players, minus Garcia(who probably had to commit to us to be eligible, at the time).
 

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