Next Gopher Head Coach

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Bad Gopher said:
I'm going to find a way to trademark "the administration" and make a fortune from people bringing up that excuse incessantly. I've been honest that I see that as a crutch and as excuse-making, right along with "Minnesota is a hard place to win." No place is an easy place to win, even if you have a tradition. Look at Louisville.
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Who hires the coaches?
 

leib0039 said:
Here we go with " but but but his first class!"

So which part? The guy he has only started 3 games?
Maybe the one shooting 18% from 3 who quit mid season
Or hey I bet it's the one that played 5 minutes last night
Or heck let's toss in the guy who never plays

You act like it's some all time class.
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I think Payne, JOJ, and Carrington all have the look of solid Big Ten players with upside. But keep shitting on the players in your vendetta against Ben Johnson. Really good look.

60's Guy said:
Ben returning next year will have absolutely nothing to do with improvement. It will certainly be stated as the reason but the reason Ben returns is simply we can't afford to fire him. Coyle approved a ridiculous contract.
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Wrong. It's also because three years isn't enough time to make a reasonable assessment considering what Johnson was left with.

Gophers7633 said:
"It's impossible to be competent in year 3 of a coaching tenure"

*checks previous coach:
In year 3 - 16-3(5-2 in conference)
Ranked 24th in KenPom, 25th in the AP Poll, 19th in the NET
8-3 against Q1-Q3 competition.
Took over a SIX-win team after the 2021 season.

Hmm...interesting.
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What's interesting is how people seem to act like they didn't want Pitino gone at the time....when I remember people whining about him three or four years before he was fired. He's a good coach now that he's gone!?

TNGophfan said:
Here's what I don't understand. People (Stocker mostly) defend Ben by saying he's building something great and "his" players are only sophomores, etc. But, in this age of the transfer portal, why in the world would you choose to support that route when there is evidence all over the country that you can easily build a winner and competitive team in 1 or, at most, 2 years. There is absolutely no loyalty, thus guarantee, that the high school players he recruited are going to stay here for a 3rd or 4th year. Hope they do. But, I have a feeling some will leave for greener pastures, more green in their pocket and a better chance to win.
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I never said that he was "building something great". I have said that he went heavy on freshman recruits last year in order to build a foundation. We're not a blue blood. We haven't even had middling success since Clem. It's not feasible to bring in four or five Big Ten level transfers every year. At some point there needs to be internal development and some cohesiveness within the roster.
 

It's the portal era and some of you thinks it's 1992...

3 yrs to field a winning team and make the tourny is the max it should take a competent coach...

Ben sucks, always has sucked... Losers lose (that better for ya fucking grammar Hitlers)... And winners win.... Bens never won... He doesn't know how to win.....
 

So we are building a foundation...with players who hardly play and when they do struggle? And what if any of those players leave? Do we have to then give Ben more time to add to his foundation? How many years should we give him?

Pitino was the wrong coach for us, being at a school like New Mexico is perfect for him and he should never leave. But he basically destroys all your arguments no matter how much you plug your ears and stomp your feet.

So bottom line...when is it ok in your mind for us to judge Ben Johnson based on record and ability? Apparently 3 years is "Instant Gratification" so how long? When his "Foundation" is all seniors if they get there? I want to know when it is ok to finally say that a mediocre coach is mediocre.
 

I think Payne, JOJ, and Carrington all have the look of solid Big Ten players with upside. But keep shitting on the players in your vendetta against Ben Johnson. Really good look.
stocker08 said:
Wrong. It's also because three years isn't enough time to make a reasonable assessment considering what Johnson was left with.



What's interesting is how people seem to act like they didn't want Pitino gone at the time....when I remember people whining about him three or four years before he was fired. He's a good coach now that he's gone!?



I never said that he was "building something great". I have said that he went heavy on freshman recruits last year in order to build a foundation. We're not a blue blood. We haven't even had middling success since Clem. It's not feasible to bring in four or five Big Ten level transfers every year. At some point there needs to be internal development and some cohesiveness within the roster.
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i just don’t see what you do in those three players. All three are almost identical to what they were last year. JOJ might have the most upside of them if he can learn to play better defense and be more assertive on offense. Carrington probably will never be a great shooter unfortunately. Payne has shown absolutely zero ability outside of 5 feet from the hoop. Not even a flash of anything else from Payne. I wouldn’t be scared to lose any of them if Ben is gone.
 


CentralGopher said:
I think Payne, JOJ, and Carrington all have the look of solid Big Ten players with upside. But keep shitting on the players in your vendetta against Ben Johnson. Really good look.

i just don’t see what you do in those three players. All three are almost identical to what they were last year. JOJ might have the most upside of them if he can learn to play better defense and be more assertive on offense. Carrington probably will never be a great shooter unfortunately. Payne has shown absolutely zero ability outside of 5 feet from the hoop. Not even a flash of anything else from Payne. I wouldn’t be scared to lose any of them if Ben is gone.
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Idk....maybe I'm too bullish on them? I think Payne has tremendous upside. JOJ has also had flashes of great play and lots of upside. Carrington may never be a great shooter....but he plays really good defense and reminds me a lot of Kalscheur. Maybe people forget....but Kalscheur had struggles at time shooting too. Only a .301 three point percentage during his Senior/Extra year at Iowa State....and I'm not sure that anyone would say that he wasn't a solid player.

I just don’t get people who think they've seen enough to know how good these guys could be. The jump from that second (sophomore) to third (junior) year is significant for a lot of guys who aren't blue chips prospects coming out of high school.
 

stocker08 said:
I just don’t get people who think they've seen enough to know how good these guys could be. The jump from that second (sophomore) to third (junior) year is significant for a lot of guys who aren't blue chips prospects coming out of high school.
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Even so … what you’re ultimately advocating for here is that we will win games by just “out talenting” our opponents.

I don’t think that’s going to get us where we’d like to go.

You can have great talent, but great coaching and in-game strategy/recognition/decision making is still too important to leave to someone who, at least those on here seem to indicate, largely lacks those.
 

MplsGopher said:
Even so … what you’re ultimately advocating for here is that we will win games by just “out talenting” our opponents.

I don’t think that’s going to get us where we’d like to go.

You can have great talent, but great coaching and in-game strategy/recognition/decision making is still too important to leave to someone who, at least those on here seem to indicate, largely lacks those.
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I never said that we'd out talent our opponents. But that first year....the talent on the team was way behind. Johnson was left with almost nothing and had little time to fill an entire roster. Last year we had more talent.....but way too many minutes going to true freshman to compete at a high level. And this year....we're still only starting two/three Juniors depending on the game along with a combination of sophomores and Christie as a true freshman. Still a very young team with no senior leadership.
 

stocker08 said:
I never said that we'd out talent our opponents. But that first year....the talent on the team was way behind. Johnson was left with almost nothing and had little time to fill an entire roster. Last year we had more talent.....but way too many minutes going to true freshman to compete at a high level. And this year....we're still only starting two/three Juniors depending on the game along with a combination of sophomores and Christie as a true freshman. Still a very young team with no senior leadership.
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IDK. The older kids left for other teams.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
And it has been stated several times on here that they can get out of that contract the same way they avoided paying Pitino a buyout.
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And I have stated just as many times I disagree that is the case. Completely different situations,
 


Off-GridTNgopher said:
It's the portal era and some of you thinks it's 1992...

3 yrs to field a winning team and make the tourny is the max it should take a competent coach...

Ben sucks, always has sucked... Losers lose (that better for ya fucking grammar Hitlers)... And winners win.... Bens never won... He doesn't know how to win.....
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Didn't you read Marcus's story last year about how Ben's vast experience losing was helping him deal with all the losing though?
 
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stocker08 said:
I think Payne, JOJ, and Carrington all have the look of solid Big Ten players with upside. But keep shitting on the players in your vendetta against Ben Johnson. Really good look.



Wrong. It's also because three years isn't enough time to make a reasonable assessment considering what Johnson was left with.



What's interesting is how people seem to act like they didn't want Pitino gone at the time....when I remember people whining about him three or four years before he was fired. He's a good coach now that he's gone!?



I never said that he was "building something great". I have said that he went heavy on freshman recruits last year in order to build a foundation. We're not a blue blood. We haven't even had middling success since Clem. It's not feasible to bring in four or five Big Ten level transfers every year. At some point there needs to be internal development and some cohesiveness within the roster.
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He's proven himself to be an average (or at best slightly above average) recruiter, but a very poor X's and O's coach or developer of talent. That will not work at Minnesota.

I had hope initially that he would get some big hits recruiting and Thorson would make up for his deficiencies on the coaching side. That clearly hasn't happened. And neither of those things are going to magically fix themselves 2.5 years in. That is the issue.

We can "give it more time" but it's very, very unlikely to make a difference. So most of us don't want to flush another season spinning our wheels just to do what is already obvious must be done.
 
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howeda7 said:
He's proven himself to be an average (or at best slightly above average) recruiter, but a very poor X's and O's coach. That will not work at Minnesota. And neither of those things are going to magically fix themselves 2.5 years in. That is the issue.

We can "give it more time" but it's very, very unlikely to make a difference. So most of us don't want to flush another season spinning our wheels just to do what is already obvious must be done.
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He's very poor at the X's and O's? Thanks for the inside scoop, coach.
 


topos said:
I've been more supportive of Johnson than most, minus a few other selective posters. However, it's time to start thinking about contingencies.

My Expectation of CBJ: I expected that we'd be competing for a tournament bid by his 3rd year (which I think is more than generous, especially in the portal era).

That's not happening this year (pending a miracle run). My biggest gripe with Johnson is similar to my final straw with Pitino.
  1. No Identity
  2. Consistently Outcoached
We're not tough and "gritty." We don't value basketball, can't play positionless basketball, and are mentally weak (see FT %).

If a Tier 1 coach is available, you make it happen in the off-season. If a Tier 1 coach isn't available, you figure out how to entice one at whatever cost.

Apathy is out in full force, and the only thing that will breathe life into this program is a fresh start with a proven winner.

Regarding the players, there is no guarantee that everyone will stay if Ben stays. Conversely, there's no guarantee that they will all leave if Ben leaves. A Tier 1 coach should be persuasive, get current guys to buy in, and be far more effective in the portal. Roster upside should not factor into the AD's decision in this day and age of CBB.

While it may be annoying that some posters never gave CBJ a chance, ultimately, results matter, and the body of work does not justify more time. Demanding a better product after three years of historically abysmal performance is not "shortsighted" anymore.

I wanted this hire to work out. Ben gives it everything he has (and then some). He's likable and would be loyal for the long term. But winning games matters, and he hasn't done enough of that when it counts.
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Well done. Fairest assessment I’ve read about the current situation.

Especially on point about people (us) worrying about the portal. We have no way of knowing whether guys will stay or leave, whether Ben’s still here or not.
 



We keep saying it's now possible, because of the portal, to build a good team quickly. Yet the general concensus here is that college basketball, specifically the Big Ten, has been down recently. My question is; shouldn't these established coaches have better teams if the portal allows you to get better faster?
 

stocker08 said:
I think Payne, JOJ, and Carrington all have the look of solid Big Ten players with upside. But keep shitting on the players in your vendetta against Ben Johnson. Really good look.



Wrong. It's also because three years isn't enough time to make a reasonable assessment considering what Johnson was left with.



What's interesting is how people seem to act like they didn't want Pitino gone at the time....when I remember people whining about him three or four years before he was fired. He's a good coach now that he's gone!?



I never said that he was "building something great". I have said that he went heavy on freshman recruits last year in order to build a foundation. We're not a blue blood. We haven't even had middling success since Clem. It's not feasible to bring in four or five Big Ten level transfers every year. At some point there needs to be internal development and some cohesiveness within the roster.
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What was New Mexico left with when Pitino took over? What was Otzleberger left with when he took over at Iowa State? What was Mississippi State left with when Jans took over? What was Shrewsbury left with at PSU when he took over? What was Craig Smith left with at Utah when he took over? What was Missouri left with when Gates took over?

And full disclosure, I did want Pitino fired, just like I do with Ben.
 

howeda7 said:
Didn't you read Marcus's story last year about how Ben's vast experience losing was helping him deal with the all the losing though?
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If that didn't make the Preposterous Statement field, then what are we even doing here?
 

stocker08 said:
I never said that we'd out talent our opponents. But that first year....the talent on the team was way behind. Johnson was left with almost nothing and had little time to fill an entire roster. Last year we had more talent.....but way too many minutes going to true freshman to compete at a high level. And this year....we're still only starting two/three Juniors depending on the game along with a combination of sophomores and Christie as a true freshman. Still a very young team with no senior leadership.
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Hmm. I wonder why that is?
 

stocker08 said:
I'm not a basketball coach.
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So he says he's not a coach so he can't say if CBJ knows the x's and o's, but yet in 1000 others he states how good the 2nd year class is. How can that be, hes not a coach there's no way he could ever know how good they are! 😏
 



topos said:
I've been more supportive of Johnson than most, minus a few other selective posters. However, it's time to start thinking about contingencies.

My Expectation of CBJ: I expected that we'd be competing for a tournament bid by his 3rd year (which I think is more than generous, especially in the portal era).

That's not happening this year (pending a miracle run). My biggest gripe with Johnson is similar to my final straw with Pitino.
  1. No Identity
  2. Consistently Outcoached
We're not tough and "gritty." We don't value basketball, can't play positionless basketball, and are mentally weak (see FT %).

If a Tier 1 coach is available, you make it happen in the off-season. If a Tier 1 coach isn't available, you figure out how to entice one at whatever cost.

Apathy is out in full force, and the only thing that will breathe life into this program is a fresh start with a proven winner.

Regarding the players, there is no guarantee that everyone will stay if Ben stays. Conversely, there's no guarantee that they will all leave if Ben leaves. A Tier 1 coach should be persuasive, get current guys to buy in, and be far more effective in the portal. Roster upside should not factor into the AD's decision in this day and age of CBB.

While it may be annoying that some posters never gave CBJ a chance, ultimately, results matter, and the body of work does not justify more time. Demanding a better product after three years of historically abysmal performance is not "shortsighted" anymore.

I wanted this hire to work out. Ben gives it everything he has (and then some). He's likable and would be loyal for the long term. But winning games matters, and he hasn't done enough of that when it counts.
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Very fair take.

I hope like hell this team can break through and go on a wild-ass run up to the B1G tournament. I really, really do. But if another collapse happens, I really can't see how this can continue, regardless of the perceived potential. The portal and NIL have removed all assurances from year to year that roster continuity will remain intact. If anything, plan for it not to be intact, even if you are somewhat good. In an Instagram world, few people are going to have the patience to watch Dances with Wolves.

Sometimes when looking at the situation, it is helpful to think about how competing programs may recruit against you, because whether you like it or not, those perceptions are often taken as reality (and in some cases, are reality).

Minnesota Basketball:
  • Hasn't been relevant in years
  • Was struggling to be competitive, and yet somehow managed to get worse
  • Hired a head coach with no D1, let alone B1G, coaching experience
  • Has not won a single game against moderately good competition, let alone top tier competition
  • You play your games in an old arena that lacks many modern amenities
  • The fan base has become apathetic
  • You could go there and be a star, but because not many people are watching you or even care, it will hurt your professional prospects
You are Coach Johnson. Other than the arena, which is mostly out of your control, how do you respond to the rest? Year 1 you can get by on a vision. Year 2 you can get by on a vision with some promise and some data points to show progress. Year 3 there better be tangible progress, otherwise your vision is just vaporware in most people's eyes. Vaporware has a very limited shelf life.

Therefore, the next 4 to 6 weeks will determine what should be done IMHO. I hope it works out. If it doesn't, put it out of its misery and try again.
 

60's Guy said:
And I have stated just as many times I disagree that is the case. Completely different situations,
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They're not, and you're wrong.

Even if they did pay his full buyout, stating the Gophers couldn't afford it is laughable.
 

DarthGopher said:
Minnesota Basketball:
  • Hasn't been relevant in years
  • Was struggling to be competitive, and yet somehow managed to get worse
  • Hired a head coach with no D1, let alone B1G, coaching experience
  • Has not won a single game against moderately good competition, let alone top tier competition
  • You play your games in an old arena that lacks many modern amenities
  • The fan base has become apathetic
  • You could go there and be a star, but because not many people are watching you or even care, it will hurt your professional prospects
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Coupled with Elite Eight in 1990 and Final Four in 1997 ....

what is the most comparable other program in the P6 (including Big East) to Minnesota?

And where are they at with this, and what are they doing to address them? I am curious. Not necessarily putting it on you to go do a bunch of research, or anyone else for that matter. Just would be interesting to know what the answer is, considering all these kinds of factors.


Georgia Tech?

They renovated their 1950's era arena in 2011-2012.

EDIT: and hired Damon Stoudamire roughly a year ago, in his first season now.
 
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Gophers7633 said:
What was New Mexico left with when Pitino took over? What was Otzleberger left with when he took over at Iowa State? What was Mississippi State left with when Jans took over? What was Shrewsbury left with at PSU when he took over? What was Craig Smith left with at Utah when he took over? What was Missouri left with when Gates took over?

And full disclosure, I did want Pitino fired, just like I do with Ben.
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Shrewsberry? You should call Notre Dame and let them know they've got a bum. Why hasn't he turned it around in year one? :rolleyes:
 

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