New Vikings stadium... and how it might relate to Gopher game day

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BisonGopher said:
If any resident of Ramsey County disagrees with the sales tax, they can simply and easily choose not to pay it. Don't buy something in Ramsey County.

Every time someone chooses to buy something in RC, they're voting yes for the stadium in Arden Hills. Vote with your money.
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Yea, because that makes a lot of sense. People should take more time out of their day in the form of additional travel and possibly spend more money in the extra gas, all to travel outside of Ramsey county to buy something they could have found closer to home? And what if the item is cheaper at a store in Ramsey county? This is the silliest solution I've heard of yet.
 

Small update: county's credit rating wouldn't be affected by issuing $350 million bonds. http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/122875053.html

Apparently this is irrelevant unless the state kicks in their $300 million. Too bad, $350 million + $407 million from the Vikings would build one heck of an outdoor facility. As good as any in the NFL.
 

BisonGopher said:
If any resident of Ramsey County disagrees with the sales tax, they can simply and easily choose not to pay it. Don't buy something in Ramsey County.

Every time someone chooses to buy something in RC, they're voting yes for the stadium in Arden Hills. Vote with your money.
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That is an insane of an idea as any posted here. Drive further away to buy things for a lifetime of being a resident. Gas is now ~$4.00 per gallon. In a year, it will be ~$5, unless the Saud's live up to their promise of driving gas down to ~$2.50 per gallon in the U.S (they are suggesting this to OPEC due to our recent improvements in gas consumption and gas conservation efforts in effect to keep us dependent.) Who would possibly be so devoted as to travel out of the county to shop unless you lived right on the border of the county.
 

Mustang Mountain Man said:
That is an insane of an idea as any posted here. Drive further away to buy things for a lifetime of being a resident. Gas is now ~$4.00 per gallon. In a year, it will be ~$5, unless the Saud's live up to their promise of driving gas down to ~$2.50 per gallon in the U.S (they are suggesting this to OPEC due to our recent improvements in gas consumption and gas conservation efforts in effect to keep us dependent.) Who would possibly be so devoted as to travel out of the county to shop unless you lived right on the border of the county.
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Someone who values his/her principles more than half a cent? :D

Honestly though, if it bothers you that much you don't have to pay it. Vote with your money.
 

BisonGopher said:
Someone who values his/her principles more than half a cent? :D

Honestly though, if it bothers you that much you don't have to pay it. Vote with your money.
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I'd rather vote with my vote, but the county has decided to ask the legislature NOT to require the state mandated referendum.

So, all the businesses in Ramsey County now are subject to a referendum on their businesses, including my tailor, the guy who sharpens my lawn mower, and the bakery where I get cake. I'm sure their share of the stadium business will be HUGE, and they will be so pleased that this all passed.
 


From MinnPost today:

“...Six out of seven (St. Paul) City Council members say they're against a half-cent sales tax the county plans to help pay for the stadium and the council might even put the tax up to a vote — a non-binding, but telling gauge of support for the plan.…Council president Kathy Lantry and several other council members say they'd consider a formal resolution opposing the Arden Hills deal.

The council proposed a stadium spending cap and a referendum requirement that helped scuttle city bids for the Twins in 2002 and 2004. Such local opposition could ultimately be a factor in a Vikings deal. Back in 2005, the Legislature skirted a limit on stadium spending in Minneapolis by handing a Twins deal to Hennepin County instead.

Lawmakers also skipped a referendum, normally required for sales tax hikes. But Republicans may now feel differently about imposing new levies against taxpayer opposition — even in DFL strongholds like St. Paul. City Council member Dan Bostrom, who represents much of the East Side, said ‘no-new-taxes Republicans’ are risking hypocrisy if they sign on to the deal for the Vikings in Arden Hills....”
 

saintpaulguy said:
I'd rather vote with my vote, but the county has decided to ask the legislature NOT to require the state mandated referendum.

So, all the businesses in Ramsey County now are subject to a referendum on their businesses, including my tailor, the guy who sharpens my lawn mower, and the bakery where I get cake. I'm sure their share of the stadium business will be HUGE, and they will be so pleased that this all passed.
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If a few businesses in RC have to close in order to keep the Vikings in Minnesota, so be it.
 

BisonGopher said:
Someone who values his/her principles more than half a cent? :D

Honestly though, if it bothers you that much you don't have to pay it. Vote with your money.
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Are you serious? I haven't paid that much attention to your posts in the past, so I can't tell if you're being funny (if so, well played) or oblivious to how the real world works.
 

BisonGopher said:
If a few businesses in RC have to close in order to keep the Vikings in Minnesota, so be it.
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Let's put the other 86 counties on notice--if there's something people really want, your livelihoods don't matter.
 



saintpaulguy said:
Let's put the other 86 counties on notice--if there's something people really want, your livelihoods don't matter.
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It's the government's responsibility to make hard decisions for the better good. When it's something this big and important to people, well...yeah some businesses may be negatively affected.

Business is not the end all, be all of our existence. It's not the most important thing.
 

BisonGopher said:
Business is not the end all, be all of our existence. It's not the most important thing.
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But the Vikings are?

Fortunately, the stadium is dead in the water. The special session won't have time for something so trivial.
 

GopherVotary said:
But the Vikings are?

Fortunately, the stadium is dead in the water. The special session won't have time for something so trivial.
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Fortunately how? Because you damn well know that if the Vikes head for LA, the NFL WILL have another franchise in MN again. Only that time, it will cost the state and taxpayers many many more than the $600 million that's proposed now. Read: The Xcel Center and the renovations of downtown St. Paul.
 




BisonGopher said:
It's the government's responsibility to make hard decisions for the better good. When it's something this big and important to people, well...yeah some businesses may be negatively affected.

Business is not the end all, be all of our existence. It's not the most important thing.
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Professional sports, is not the be all, end all of our existence. Jobs, actually, are. People need jobs, and if you haven't read a paper lately, they aren't plentiful. A league that is currently trying to divvy up billions of dollars between the interests, unsuccessfully, is not functional, nor is worthy, of sacrificing the livelihood of any Minnesotan. It is the height of arrogance, in this economy, to not figure out how to distribute the profits of this cash cow in a way that allows Joe Six Pack a Sunday afternoon's worth of entertainment so he can forget about the fact that his JOB is possibly going away. To so cavalierly cast aside the jobs of others for the sake of these boors is just unimaginable to me.

As of right now, there is no NFL. There is no team moving to LA. There is no season.

We have another year to figure out a better solution for this problem.

I'll pull out this card, for the sake of it--my family is a season ticket holder to the purple since 1961. I'm a fan, but reason tells me, that if they can't figure out a way to have a season, given their own vast resources, I shouldn't have to pay a half cent sales tax forever that I get no benefit from, simply because Ziggy likes having parking revenues.
 

Formo said:
Fortunately how? Because you damn well know that if the Vikes head for LA, the NFL WILL have another franchise in MN again. Only that time, it will cost the state and taxpayers many many more than the $600 million that's proposed now. Read: The Xcel Center and the renovations of downtown St. Paul.
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That may be true, Formo. Although I don't think so. But at least we will be able get a little bit of satisfaction from the fact you will be too old to care, or maybe even be dead, by the time Minnesota gets another NFL franchise.
 

Whether you are pro or con, there is no way a stadium bill will be passed this year.
 


saintpaulguy said:
Professional sports, is not the be all, end all of our existence. Jobs, actually, are. People need jobs, and if you haven't read a paper lately, they aren't plentiful. A league that is currently trying to divvy up billions of dollars between the interests, unsuccessfully, is not functional, nor is worthy, of sacrificing the livelihood of any Minnesotan. It is the height of arrogance, in this economy, to not figure out how to distribute the profits of this cash cow in a way that allows Joe Six Pack a Sunday afternoon's worth of entertainment so he can forget about the fact that his JOB is possibly going away. To so cavalierly cast aside the jobs of others for the sake of these boors is just unimaginable to me.

As of right now, there is no NFL. There is no team moving to LA. There is no season.

We have another year to figure out a better solution for this problem.

I'll pull out this card, for the sake of it--my family is a season ticket holder to the purple since 1961. I'm a fan, but reason tells me, that if they can't figure out a way to have a season, given their own vast resources, I shouldn't have to pay a half cent sales tax forever that I get no benefit from, simply because Ziggy likes having parking revenues.
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You would be choosing to pay the tax. Each time you buy something in the county you'd be voting yes to the tax and the new stadium in Arden Hills.

I agree they have until 2012. No stadium deal by then, Vikings are gone. It'd be a lot easier to solve the problem now with this solution that would give the Vikings a chance to make a lot more money.
 

statewide team - statewide solution

I live in outstate MN, so I don't have a direct stake in the argument. I might go up to the Twin Cities 1 or 2 times a year, so I would contribute very little under a Ramsey County Sales Tax.

And that brings up a larger point - I think the Vikes, more so than any other college or pro sports franchise, are truly a state-wide team. I would guess that a higher percentage of state residents watch the Vikes than any of the other college or pro teams. I know people who have season tickets, or share season tickets, and drive up to every home game from the SW and the SE corners of the state.

So, if the Vikes are a state-wide asset, then there should be a state-wide solution. I think the fairest way to finance a stadium is a state-wide sales tax, with the proceeds going into a stadium/"major projects" fund. That would generate the most revenue, and pay off the bonds sooner.

Only one problem - politics. It's much easier for out-state legislators to vote for a bill that only taxes Hennepin County for the Twins, or Ramsey County for the Vikes. Voting for a state-wide tax would require more political courage, and long-term thinking - both of which are completely absent from the current legislature. (this is not a political rant - both parties are equally guilty.)

I don't want to see the Vikes leave, and I hope they can get a stadium deal. Realistically, I will attend very few events at the stadium, so I don't care if it winds up in Arden Hills or DT Mpls.

But, bottom line, I would be willing to pay a little bit more on a state-wide sales tax to help keep the Vikes in MN. I don't think it's fair to ask 1 county to bear the burden.
 

List of cities Vikings franchise could be playing in by 2014 (in order of likelihood per my opinion):
St Paul/Arden hills
Minneapolis
Las Vegas
Birmingham/Montgomery
Los Angeles
Salt lake city
Portland

I actually took an Econ grad school class that looked at this issue
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I live in outstate MN, so I don't have a direct stake in the argument. I might go up to the Twin Cities 1 or 2 times a year, so I would contribute very little under a Ramsey County Sales Tax.

And that brings up a larger point - I think the Vikes, more so than any other college or pro sports franchise, are truly a state-wide team. I would guess that a higher percentage of state residents watch the Vikes than any of the other college or pro teams. I know people who have season tickets, or share season tickets, and drive up to every home game from the SW and the SE corners of the state.

So, if the Vikes are a state-wide asset, then there should be a state-wide solution. I think the fairest way to finance a stadium is a state-wide sales tax, with the proceeds going into a stadium/"major projects" fund. That would generate the most revenue, and pay off the bonds sooner.

Only one problem - politics. It's much easier for out-state legislators to vote for a bill that only taxes Hennepin County for the Twins, or Ramsey County for the Vikes. Voting for a state-wide tax would require more political courage, and long-term thinking - both of which are completely absent from the current legislature. (this is not a political rant - both parties are equally guilty.)

I don't want to see the Vikes leave, and I hope they can get a stadium deal. Realistically, I will attend very few events at the stadium, so I don't care if it winds up in Arden Hills or DT Mpls.

But, bottom line, I would be willing to pay a little bit more on a state-wide sales tax to help keep the Vikes in MN. I don't think it's fair to ask 1 county to bear the burden.
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This is basically true. A state-wide tax would be the most fair, but is impossible politically. Besides the State is contributing 1/3. Is a county-wide sales tax ideal? No. An 'enterprise zone' taxing the hotels and resteraunts/bars around the stadium would be better. But a half-cent sales tax isn't going to kill any businesses off and the county will benefit. Personally, I haven't spent one penny in Ramsey county in years, but I'd probably drop a few hundred going to a Vikings game now and then. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat. So Ramsey County, do you want my $$ or not?
 

howeda7 said:
T Personally, I haven't spent one penny in Ramsey county in years, but I'd probably drop a few hundred going to a Vikings game now and then. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat. So Ramsey County, do you want my $$ or not?
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Your question was already answered several times in this thread. Residents of the City of St. Paul will pay more than 50% of the new sales tax for the next 30 years. The Mayor of St. Paul and almost the entire City Council is OPPOSED to this tax. They have spoken loudly and clearly on this issue. They Do Not Want your $$.

From MinnPost last week:

“...Six out of seven (St. Paul) City Council members say they're against a half-cent sales tax the county plans to help pay for the stadium and the council might even put the tax up to a vote — a non-binding, but telling gauge of support for the plan.…Council president Kathy Lantry and several other council members say they'd consider a formal resolution opposing the Arden Hills deal.

The council proposed a stadium spending cap and a referendum requirement that helped scuttle city bids for the Twins in 2002 and 2004. Such local opposition could ultimately be a factor in a Vikings deal. Back in 2005, the Legislature skirted a limit on stadium spending in Minneapolis by handing a Twins deal to Hennepin County instead.

Lawmakers also skipped a referendum, normally required for sales tax hikes. But Republicans may now feel differently about imposing new levies against taxpayer opposition — even in DFL strongholds like St. Paul. City Council member Dan Bostrom, who represents much of the East Side, said ‘no-new-taxes Republicans’ are risking hypocrisy if they sign on to the deal for the Vikings in Arden Hills....”
 

howeda7 said:
This is basically true. A state-wide tax would be the most fair, but is impossible politically. Besides the State is contributing 1/3. Is a county-wide sales tax ideal? No. An 'enterprise zone' taxing the hotels and resteraunts/bars around the stadium would be better. But a half-cent sales tax isn't going to kill any businesses off and the county will benefit. Personally, I haven't spent one penny in Ramsey county in years, but I'd probably drop a few hundred going to a Vikings game now and then. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat. So Ramsey County, do you want my $$ or not?
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I'm willing to have someone explain this to me, but I don't understand how the daily burden of paying extra for a bottle of Dawn dishwashing soap when I go to Lund's in St. Paul is offset by the limited number of dates the Vikings play and the money that brings in. And given that that money brought in does not pay Saint Paul city sales tax, but instead just pays the same stadium tax that I pay when I buy dish soap, I'd say "No, I don't want that money", because it doesn't really add anything to Ramsey County or its biggest city.

I do like the idea of an enterprise zone, but I'm guessing that that won't capture enough funds to work, because if it did, they'd have gone for it. Taxing people who have a direct benefit is usually far easier. They are only expanded when there isn't enough revenue.

It's a statewide asset. It needs to be somewhere. I'm more than happy to pay a far lower, statewide sales tax to have the thing in Minneapolis than I am to have it Ramsey County and be the "local partner".
 

This just in from the Strib:

Ramsey County Stadium tax: Let voters decide?

Article by: ROCHELLE OLSON , Star Tribune
Updated: June 6, 2011 - 9:34 PM

Ramsey County Charter Commission calls special meeting on letting the electorate decide whether to raise sales tax by half a cent.

Ramsey County's Charter Commission wants voters to have a say in the taxation for a proposed $1 billion Vikings stadium in Arden Hills.

Notice went out Monday of a special meeting where the commission will vote on a resolution regarding the proposed half-cent countywide sales tax increase that would back $23 million in annual payments on a $350 million stadium investment.

The draft resolution says the commission "opposes any effort to circumvent the ... citizens of Ramsey County by denying Ramsey County citizens the right to vote on a countywide sales tax or preventing Ramsey County citizens from seeking a referendum to place this extremely important public policy on a ballot."

Although the resolution is expected to pass and would send a message, the commission cannot dictate policy to the county or the Legislature.

The Ramsey County charter has a provision that gives voters the ability to overturn ordinances. Once an ordinance is passed, opponents have 45 days to gather signatures to put the issue to a countywide vote. Opponents need to collect signatures of 10 percent of the countywide voters in the 2008 presidential election, or roughly 28,000.

Charter Commission Member Bryan Olson of Falcon Heights said some are concerned "this will be fixed so the County Board [members] won't have to dirty their hands with it and this tax will happen and that's it."

Victoria Reinhardt, chairwoman of the County Board, said the Legislature can exempt the board from voting on the tax, which would mean the tax would be exempt from a petition and countywide vote. As an opponent of the tax, Reinhardt said she welcomed the commission's action.

County Board Member Rafael Ortega, who proposed the Vikings deal, said of the charter resolution: "I don't know anything about that, so I've got to wait to see what's going on."

Said Vikings Vice President Lester Bagley: "The Ramsey County Board makes annual taxing and spending decisions that far exceed the $23 million a year this proposal would require. Those decisions are not put to referendum."

In addition to Ramsey County's investment, the Vikings would contribute $407 million and the state would add $300 million to the stadium project, under an agreement the team has made with the county.

Gov. Mark Dayton wants necessary road upgrades to be paid for by the team, leaving an estimated $131 million funding hole for the project at Interstate 35W and Hwy. 10 in Arden Hills.

Ted Mondale, chairman of the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, isn't concerned about the Charter Commission. "The big issue is the funding. Once that's done; the rest can get done," he said.

The Ramsey County Charter Commission generally hears requests for changes to the charter and decides whether to put issues before the voters. The board's members are appointed by the judiciary.

Sponsors of a stadium bill in the Legislature didn't return calls Monday regarding the commission's position.

The commission meeting is set for 6 p.m. Wednesday in the Willow Room at Vadnais Heights Commons, 655 E. County Road F.
 

saintpaulguy said:
I'm willing to have someone explain this to me, but I don't understand how the daily burden of paying extra for a bottle of Dawn dishwashing soap when I go to Lund's in St. Paul is offset by the limited number of dates the Vikings play and the money that brings in. And given that that money brought in does not pay Saint Paul city sales tax, but instead just pays the same stadium tax that I pay when I buy dish soap, I'd say "No, I don't want that money", because it doesn't really add anything to Ramsey County or its biggest city.

I do like the idea of an enterprise zone, but I'm guessing that that won't capture enough funds to work, because if it did, they'd have gone for it. Taxing people who have a direct benefit is usually far easier. They are only expanded when there isn't enough revenue.

It's a statewide asset. It needs to be somewhere. I'm more than happy to pay a far lower, statewide sales tax to have the thing in Minneapolis than I am to have it Ramsey County and be the "local partner".
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For your personally? I can't say how the Viking Stadium offsets the 2 cents more you paid for your Dawn. If you own a restaraunt or hotel in the area it certainly will. If not, maybe your neighbor does and they will spend a bit more at your business when they make more money. Or maybe you just like the Vikings. FWIW, I'm guessing Dawn is exempt from sales tax anyway?

As I said, an Enterprize Zone would be 'fairer' but probably difficult to base funding on when the site is in the middle of nowhere. They can't really have realiable projections of how much revenue will be generated in that area where nothing exists yet. In theory if the development around the stadium increases the overall county tax revenues enough, they will later be able to lower the rate, off-setting what you paid in this increase. Of course they will never actually do that, but they could.
 

saintpaulguy said:
I'm willing to have someone explain this to me, but I don't understand how the daily burden of paying extra for a bottle of Dawn dishwashing soap when I go to Lund's in St. Paul is offset by the limited number of dates the Vikings play and the money that brings in. And given that that money brought in does not pay Saint Paul city sales tax, but instead just pays the same stadium tax that I pay when I buy dish soap, I'd say "No, I don't want that money", because it doesn't really add anything to Ramsey County or its biggest city.

I do like the idea of an enterprise zone, but I'm guessing that that won't capture enough funds to work, because if it did, they'd have gone for it. Taxing people who have a direct benefit is usually far easier. They are only expanded when there isn't enough revenue.

It's a statewide asset. It needs to be somewhere. I'm more than happy to pay a far lower, statewide sales tax to have the thing in Minneapolis than I am to have it Ramsey County and be the "local partner".
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As already said, it'd never work. Why should a state senator from Duluth vote for a state sales tax if the stadium has no chance of being in Duluth? For getting to have the stadium in the cities, someone in the cities is going to have to fork over a pretty penny. Just how it is.


Here's one for ya, SP guy: does the city of Saint Paul benefit in any way from services provided by the county? Think on that one and answer it honestly.
 

BisonGopher said:
As already said, it'd never work. Why should a state senator from Duluth vote for a state sales tax if the stadium has no chance of being in Duluth? For getting to have the stadium in the cities, someone in the cities is going to have to fork over a pretty penny. Just how it is.


Here's one for ya, SP guy: does the city of Saint Paul benefit in any way from services provided by the county? Think on that one and answer it honestly.
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Certainly it does. These services are also paid for by Ramsey County property taxes, which all St. Paul property owners pay.
 

I think dishwashing soap is taxable, as it is not non-prepared food, clothing, or medicine.

Maybe I should have chosen a $30,000 Toyota at Maplewood Toyota? $150 extra. :D

Also, if I was a State Senator from Duluth, I'd really be quiet about state-supported local projects. Great Lakes aquarium, or the New DECC would come to mind too quickly.
 

Still pissed "my" thread took a 180 into non-gopher related material... and just kept on going.
 

saintpaulguy said:
I think dishwashing soap is taxable, as it is not non-prepared food, clothing, or medicine.

Maybe I should have chosen a $30,000 Toyota at Maplewood Toyota? $150 extra. :D

Also, if I was a State Senator from Duluth, I'd really be quiet about state-supported local projects. Great Lakes aquarium, or the New DECC would come to mind too quickly.
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Not sure about the dish soap, but cars are not subject to regular sales taxes, so you won't pay extra there. This was beaten to death when the HC tax for the Twins stadium was being debated.
 

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