MSHSL to add Class 6A for football

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I don't think south metro schools should be forced to do anything. They should want to play against the best. All of the south suburban schools are capable of improving enough to play with the Lake and they along with the northwest suburban are the logical leagues for the lake teams to play against. Instead, they've managed to run away and leave all of the top programs looking for games. That's great that rosemount wants to play eastview more often, but jefferson has a shorter trip to edina or eden prairie than it has to rosemount or eagan.

If the system changed to fewer classes and section scheduling this whole argument would be over and teams like rosemount wouldn't be in wayzata's section; they'd have to wait until the state final again to get beat.
 

Jefferson wants nothing to do with edina for the simple fact that if they did they would have to repeatedly play Wayzata, Eden prairie, Minnetonka, and Hopkins. Richfield would be a better matchup for the bloomingtons than Edina.

The Bloomington district is doing what they believe is best for them. Which would be not having their kids get destroyed by 3 of the superschools every season.

What on earth would give you the idea that the south metro schools should simply want to "play the best"

You said it yourself, they are the best. You want south metros to simply want to spend more money in order to get their teeth knocked in by schools with more money, more students, and better equipment and facilities? You think being economically inefficient and putting yourself in a bad situation for success is a lesson we should be teaching our kids down here?

I think I am going to have to disagree and say that I am happy my district is teaching our kids to be efficient and do the things that gives you the best chance for success.
That must be why your team is better than the teams down here. The recipe for success in life is economic inefficiency and setting yourself up for failure.
 

Haven't Wayzata and EP been more economically efficient by not building multiple high schools? In addition to their athletic success, they're also outperforming the south suburban schools in the classroom despite having higher minority populations. and how is it more economically efficient for bloomington to travel to lakeville or rosemount rather than edina or ep?

I think the Rosemount kids looked pretty excited to be in the state final last year. I would guess that if you let the kids take a vote, they would step up and want to play EP or Wayzata instead of Burnsville and Kennedy. Kids are smart, they don't need to be coddled. They'd rather play in the big game with the big crowd.
 

AO54 said:
Haven't Wayzata and EP been more economically efficient by not building multiple high schools? In addition to their athletic success, they're also outperforming the south suburban schools in the classroom despite having higher minority populations. and how is it more economically efficient for bloomington to travel to lakeville or rosemount rather than edina or ep?

I think the Rosemount kids looked pretty excited to be in the state final last year. I would guess that if you let the kids take a vote, they would step up and want to play EP or Wayzata instead of Burnsville and Kennedy. Kids are smart, they don't need to be coddled. They'd rather play in the big game with the big crowd.
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The arrogance of this post alone is amazing.

Yes Eden prairie and Wayzata have been more efficient by only having 1 high school. And now they are dealing with the negative consequences of this action. If you dont like it, build another school.

The fact that you would bring up race should make you feel embarrassed. You realize that minorities tend to score lower on tests because they have lower incomes and that it has nothing to do with their race?
I wonder if half of the minorities at Wayzata High school come from families with more money than half the general student body at Kennedy?

I am done talking to you as it is coming to my attention that you are an ignorant, pompous, self-entitled clown.


You keep whining about the south metro schools and we will keep on not caring. You keep whining about how no one will play you, and we will keep enjoying the checks you send us for doing what no one else is willing to do (play you).
 

Out of curiousity, i checked the numbers for wayzata and rosemount. they both have similar levels of poverty based upon the free/reduced price lunch count. 13 percent for Wayzata, 14 for Rosemount, and Wayzata does outperform Rosemount in the classroom. Wayzata's kids passed the state math test at a 72% rate while Rosemount is at 53%. For the reading test it's a little closer with 90% for Wayzata and 80% for Rosemount. I would say any of the Wayzata and EP administrators would be pretty happy with the decision to build just one high school. I have faith that someday new coaches and administrators at schools like Rosemount will wake up and decide their kids will only be helped by playing the tough games where they might not be the favorite and that there's more to the game than winning and losing.
 


Wow. Nice numbers man. The schools have similar poverty rates.

Check the median incomes of the schools and get back to me. Seriously get a clue. You are an embarrassment to the human species.


You are right though. There is more to the game than winning and losing. There is playing cross town rivals, there is fair play, there is paying for your districts teams and there is putting the west metro superschools interests in front of your own.
 

It amazes me how fallacious your arguments are.

You argue that the south metro need to play the best to get better so they can beat the best. Then you argue there is more than winning and losing. At some point I am sure your great educational system would help realize that you have absolutely no argument as to why people should play Wayzata for free other than the fact that you would prefer that.

Sometimes I wish people like you would realize it is not all about you and your school.
It isn't all about championships. As a matter of fact,
In 5a football it is about 4% about wayzata and Eden prairie.
 

Rosemountian said:
Wow. Nice numbers man. The schools have similar poverty rates.

Check the median incomes of the schools and get back to me. Seriously get a clue. You are an embarrassment to the human species.


You are right though. There is more to the game than winning and losing. There is playing cross town rivals, there is fair play, there is paying for your districts teams and there is putting the west metro superschools interests in front of your own.
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I didn't say they were similarly wealthy among the rest of the student body, just that they had similar rates of poverty.

and as I've explained to you multiple times, I feel it is in the interest of a school like Kennedy or Rosemount to schedule up. It's possible to schedule up and maintain crosstown rivalries. and what is this business about fair play? This isn't even the NCAA where the different divisions have different rules. Every high school in the state regardless of enrollment is playing by the same rules.
 

I love when this ridiculous thread keeps getting posted every few weeks.

I love it even more when it is kept on the Gopher Football Forum, because it has anything at all to do with Gopher football.

Stay tuned to Six National Titles, your MSHSL news leader, for all the MSHSL news as it happens!
 



As a resident of outstate MN, I don't know whether to laugh or cry reading the pissing match between Rosemountain and AO54.

In my admittedly biased opinion, it's a perfect example of the arrogance of the Metro area schools who think they are the center of the universe. Believe it or not, there are actually many more schools and many more athletes outside the Twin cities metro area.

Rosemountain talks about a school "having to go 50 miles" for a game like it was some unfair hardship. Hey, come out to rural MN where teams routinely drive 90 to 100 miles or more 1-way for Conference games, or teams have to play non-conference games in South Dakota to fill out their schedule.

The conference roulette and gamesmanship described in your posts is, in my opinion, the #1 reason why Section FB was needed.

As far as why this is on a Gopher FB site, a lot of MN HS players will wind up playing for the Gophers, so it's logical that a Gopher fan would want to keep track of what's happening on the MN HS FB scene.
 

It makes total sense that this would get discussed here. Most of us live in Minnesota, or did. We're football fans. Many of us probably either played the game at the high school level - some beyond that, or have children or other relatives who do or did.

Someone else brought up Edina and Hopkins overbuilding back in the 1960's, and reverting back to one school. So did Roseville (Ramsey and Kellogg) and White Bear Lake (White Bear and Mariner). Things change. When I was a little kid, the North Suburban was Anoka, Blaine, Coon Rapids, Forest Lake, Fridley, Spring Lake Park, Columbia Heights, MV and Irondale (I think that was it). Can you even imagine Heights being in the same conference as Anoka today? I can certainly see from a long-term perspective why EP and Wayzata would not want to split the schools, based on long-term thinking. EP is basically completely built up, and will start to show aging in the next 10-15 years most likely.

I don't agree that we needed another class. We have too many already. In fact, I don't know anyone who thinks more classes is a good idea, except the bureaucrats at the MSHSL that think they know better than everyone else and seem to want to justify their existence. That said, I don't like the idea of sectional play either, but something needs to be done to stabilize the conferences. Allowing teams to jump willy nilly to avoid certain schools or punish them (nobody will play EP in part because they're good, but also because other AD's don't want to work with Mike Grant - thus their trip to Winnipeg last year). Perhaps a mandatory conference review every five years or so would make some sense?
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Rosemountain talks about a school "having to go 50 miles" for a game like it was some unfair hardship. Hey, come out to rural MN where teams routinely drive 90 to 100 miles or more 1-way for Conference games, or teams have to play non-conference games in South Dakota to fill out their schedule.

The conference roulette and gamesmanship described in your posts is, in my opinion, the #1 reason why Section FB was needed.
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+10 I used Fridley versus Totino as an example of unfair competition in a conference formed from shotgun marriages and not by choice. This is probably an even bigger problem in some outstate conferences. Doesn't matter though as long as Rosemount doesn't have to play anyone they don't want to.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Rosemountain talks about a school "having to go 50 miles" for a game like it was some unfair hardship. Hey, come out to rural MN where teams routinely drive 90 to 100 miles or more 1-way for Conference games, or teams have to play non-conference games in South Dakota to fill out their schedule.

As far as why this is on a Gopher FB site, a lot of MN HS players will wind up playing for the Gophers, so it's logical that a Gopher fan would want to keep track of what's happening on the MN HS FB scene.
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When have I said Schools having to travel 50 miles is unfair?

I have said it is something that the mshsl doesn't have the power to do. I have also said that doing it would put them at risk of losing 60% of 5A football schools.
Outstate schools have a lot of problems scheduling. I get that. Some metro schools have trouble scheduling. I get that too. If you understand the power structure of the mshsl, they have no power to enforce section scheduling on metro 5a schools or any schools for that matter. And they are not going to be able to get schools pass up short drives to evenly matched schools for longer drives to less evenly matched opponents.

That's the way it is. You can think it is a bad thing. But that's the way it is politically and economically.

And yes it is also a big deal in the Outstate, but if you would like to face reality, I has been an issue for the Outstate for years and it has only gotten attention once Wayzata and den prairie started complaining. So although it isn't just a metro problem, it is the center of discussion whether you like to admit it or not.
 



Mulligan said:
+10 I used Fridley versus Totino as an example of unfair competition in a conference formed from shotgun marriages and not by choice. This is probably an even bigger problem in some outstate conferences. Doesn't matter though as long as Rosemount doesn't have to play anyone they don't want to.
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A couple of things
1) I am from rosemount, but rosemount is not the high school team I have closest ties to.
2) facts are facts. The fact is that the mshsl doesn't have the power to force sectional scheduling. If they forced it then they would be at risk of losing a majority of 5A football. Metro districts have no incentive to do what is economically bad for them in order to help the little guy or the Outstate.
I understand 100% where you are coming from. I am saying as a realist that the mshsl has no power to enforce sectional scheduling. They would put themselves at risk if they tried to force it upon metro schools.
A great number of schools would benefit from sectional scheduling. A large number of schools would get hurt by it. The schools that would get hurt have an awful lot of political power and leverage.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I love when this ridiculous thread keeps getting posted every few weeks.

I love it even more when it is kept on the Gopher Football Forum, because it has anything at all to do with Gopher football.

Stay tuned to Six National Titles, your MSHSL news leader, for all the MSHSL news as it happens!
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I love it when a self proclaimed genius and gopher football expert tries to make the claim that Minnesota high school football is not relevant when discussing gopher football.

I love it even more when the genius posts in it twice to whine about it, not realizing that he bumps it to the top of the board.

If you don't like the thread, try not clicking it. If you have no self control and have to click it, try not responding. If you have no self control and have to post, try making a post relevant to the thread topic. When you make an off topic post complaining how the thread is off topic....you kinda are doing in this thread the exact same thing you are complaining about on this board. But you already knew that.
 

Rosemountian said:
I love it when a self proclaimed genius and gopher football expert tries to make the claim that Minnesota high school football is not relevant when discussing gopher football.
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Please show me once, one singular time, where I have declared myself a "genius" or "gopher football expert". One time. Thanks in advance!

Further, the Gophers have players from TX, FL, CA, IL, MO, KS, etc. Should I start a thread about how Dallas ISD considering cuts to athletic programs will affect Skyline HS? Think that makes a lot of sense on a Gopher football board? Yes, exactly.

Minnesota HS football is fair game on this board insofar as discussing Minnesota HS players who are being recruited by the University of Minnesota football team. Period. Do you think Jerry Kill gives a sh*t how many classes there are in Minnesota HS football? Does it change his life or his career one iota? Does it have anything at all to do with University of Minnesota Golden Gopher football? No, no, and hell no.

Rosemountian said:
If you don't like the thread, try not clicking it. If you have no self control and have to click it, try not responding. If you have no self control and have to post, try making a post relevant to the thread topic. When you make an off topic post complaining how the thread is off topic....you kinda are doing in this thread the exact same thing you are complaining about on this board. But you already knew that.
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I frankly can't believe these threads are left on the football board every time they're brought up on a monthly basis. If no one says anything, it's a tacit admission that OT posts are okay to clutter up the football board:

discochris said:
It makes total sense that this would get discussed here. Most of us live in Minnesota, or did. We're football fans. Many of us probably either played the game at the high school level - some beyond that, or have children or other relatives who do or did.
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So what? Many of us are Twins fans. Should I start a thread on the football board talking about how the Twins won their home opener? Does that make sense?

Many of us are Vikings fans. Should I start a thread on the football board talking about the new stadium bill and its implications on our family finances?

Many of us live and own homes in Minnesota. Should I start a thread about how plunging real estate values have affected all of us?

Think any of those make any sense? Those types of threads, along with threads about MN HS football alignment bitching, are what the OT board was created for. This monthly MN HS football thread being here is even more ridiculous than most OT threads, because all it is is a soapbox for people to complain about their favorite MN HS and how it's getting screwed. It's even more political than Obama threads on the OT board, and I get sick of reading it every 4-6 weeks. I know I'm not alone, I'm just the only one saying anything about it. Try and tell me that I'm wrong.

See you in 4-6 weeks for the next MN HS football thread bitchfest!
 

MSHSL

The MSHSL does whatever it wants. A couple of big and powerful schools can threaten to do whatever but so what? They are going to form an 8 team association and organize their own state tournament? Make their own rules? Schools are powerless.

The MSHSL does whatever it wants. Sometimes they heed to the majority. Sometimes they have votes and actually follow the results. And sometimes after discussion they just do whatever they want.

Become a representative. Go to meetings. Follow issues. The MSHSL does whatever it wants.
 

Section football should have been adopted before the addition of 6A. The big metro schools aren't the only ones having scheduling issues. Football is the sport that's driving a lot of conference scrambling all over the state, and it's screwing up a lot of other sports in it's wake.

As for your claim that the MSHSL hasn't enough power to enforce section football scheduling, the WIAA and IAHSAA were in the same position prior to adopting section football scheduling, and you haven't seen any defections from the membership of those associations.

And yes, this is a discussion that should be here in the Gopher football forum.
 

I've decided to give up the fight for section scheduling. The real problem is 4 classes too many and silly rules making it difficult for teams to travel out of state to find games. It would also make a lot of sense to not send every team to the playoffs and avoid those first round blowouts. and why don't we seed the state football tournament? Is it the fine arts/speech crowd that have been voting to give everyone a trophy?
 

epgopher said:
This is a rather common but poorly researched position. Eden Prairie administrators made the decision in the early 1980's to remain a single-HS community as they realized the enrollment would peak (it did several years ago and is currently declining) and they didn't want to be saddled with multiple buildings that were being underused. You only need to look at Edina (East and West) and Bloomington (Lincoln, Kennedy, and Jefferson) for examples of communities where multiple high-schools were eventually closed as enrollments declined.
Chaska and Chanhassen will eventually have a population (5, 10, 15, 20 years from now?) that can support a second high-school. The decision to build it now was probably premature but their hand was forced as the existing high-school had reached its capacity.
Finally, who is the arbiter of what the maximum should be? There are several schools (Wayzata among them) that are larger than Eden Prairie now; should they build a second high school also?
If you want to believe schools are making these decisions based on athletics rather than fiscal prudence you may want to research the school-board meeting minutes when these decisions were made.
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Demographics, growth, and cost should be the thing that drives how a community decides to build it's schools.

Edina and Bloomington were good examples but you left out Richfield as an offsetting example. Edina's last year as a single high school at Edina East had around 4000 students in grades 10-12. They had to separate into morning and afternoon schedules to handle the logistics. Basically if they didn't add a second school it would have been to the detriment of the students. But they did it knowing that they would have to eventually use the old school for something else when enrollments declined.

Richfield on the other hand had around 3300 students in grades 10-12, but the demographics showed that the size was only going to be for a few years and then enrollments were going to start declining, they really did not have the population to support two schools for any period of time and chose to stay a single school and add temp module classrooms.

I think school boards make informed decisions based on what is best for the students and the community and sports really do not play that big of a factor in it. Eden Prairie probably isn't large enough to support two schools long term.
 

60's Guy said:
The MSHSL does whatever it wants.
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Actually, they don't in the sense I think you mean. It's not some autonomous group of bureaucrats making the decisions. The board of directors that make the major decisions is made up of representatives from school districts around the state. Regions are evenly represented and terms are limited in an attempt to make sure nobody gets undue power. So the schools themselves decide what the MSHSL does.

If anything, it's too much of a democracy. Listening to everyone results in adding classes to try to keep everyone happy. The Thread Policeman will get very angry again, but along with another football class, three new events were approved for regular track meets at the April meeting. They are two race events for wheelchair athletes along with a wheelchair shot put. I understand the rationale and, thank God, my child was never in a wheelchair. But are we going to have meets where two or even one kid goes around the track in a wheelchair? How meaningful is that? At big meets you've added six more events that will make meets even longer. You wouldn't want to be on record voting against this, but it doesn't seem very practical and what's next?
 

60's Guy said:
The MSHSL does whatever it wants. A couple of big and powerful schools can threaten to do whatever but so what? They are going to form an 8 team association and organize their own state tournament? Make their own rules? Schools are powerless.
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Well, it's possible. It's basically what Shattuck-St. Marys did when they left the MSHSL for hockey (they may have for other sports as well) and decided to play a junior schedule because the high school league limits the number of games they can play. While I don't think this will happen, there is the precedent for a school telling the MSHSL to shove it.
 

Schools have a lot more power than people give them credit for. If they didn't section scheduling would have happened years ago like it did in Wisconsin. The mshsl is weak, the know it so they aren't going to try anything that alienates themselves.

I don't understand why people think even 4 classes is too many. The Eden prairie sophomore team could probably beat a quarter of the teams in 2A football. The purpose of the class system is so that no school is in the playoffs against a school that is more than double their size.

Maybe you think that 4 classes is too many. Maybe you think that lakeville south vs kasson manterville would be a heck of a playoff game. I would disagree.
 

Rosemountian said:
Schools have a lot more power than people give them credit for. If they didn't section scheduling would have happened years ago like it did in Wisconsin. The mshsl is weak, the know it so they aren't going to try anything that alienates themselves.

I don't understand why people think even 4 classes is too many. The Eden prairie sophomore team could probably beat a quarter of the teams in 2A football. The purpose of the class system is so that no school is in the playoffs against a school that is more than double their size.

Maybe you think that 4 classes is too many. Maybe you think that lakeville south vs kasson manterville would be a heck of a playoff game. I would disagree.
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Kasson would have to get past Rochester Lourdes before getting to play Lakeville, and I do think Lourdes could give Lakeville South a game. Maybe that's because I don't think much about South after watching them get waxed by Wayzata, though.

For the off-topic gremlins: it would have been fun to see Westerhaus from Holy Family play against some better competition. Our multi-class system also prevented us from seeing VanDeSteeg or Decker play in a big game.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Let's just give everyone a trophy before the season starts and call it a day.
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They are already doing that. I was amazed at the Hutchinison High School Trophy Case. You would be hard pressed to find the State Championhsip Trophy by the clutter of Playoff Participant, District Participant Trophies.

The MSHSL is the problem not the solution.

If Wazata cannot find a game, give Glencoe Silver Lake a call. They would love to get a chance.
 

This reason has been alluded to. From John's Blog

"The sun is shining here at MSHSL World Headquarters, making me think (hope) we’ll have a nice week with temperatures heading in the right direction and spring sports going at a good pace.

Let’s kick off the week by revisiting a big news item from last week: The addition of a seventh class in football. Some clarifications seem to be in order, based on feedback following Thursday’s decision by the MSHSL board of directors to add a new class for the largest 32 schools beginning in 2012. Some of the screamers and shouters seem to think this is about awarding more medals and trophies. It is not.

First, the size disparity between Class 5A schools was a major factor in the decision. Ideally, the largest football schools in a class should not have an enrollment more than twice the enrollment of the smallest schools. Under the current 5A setup, the disparity is approaching 3 to 1.

A related reason for the change is very simple: the safety of the athletes. Concussions and other injuries are a real concern in high school athletics, and at the board of directors meeting in January, safety issues in 5A football were addressed by Rochester Century athletic director Mark Kuisle.

Kuisle, a former board member as well as past president of the board, told the members that 5A football “needs to be fixed” because of the size disparity between schools. Kuisle suggested adding a new class for the largest schools, telling the board, “The disparity of a 3-1 ratio is becoming unsafe for kids. 1,200 vs. 3,000; it’s wrong and I’m tired, as an athletic administrator, of trying to defend this and tolerate this disproportionality.”

So the next time you hear someone complaining about how “the MSHSL wants everyone to win a medal,” tell them that the MSHSL is just a bit more concerned with safety than medals.

A possible football change that was not approved was section football scheduling. This issue centers on the difficulties some schools have in filling their regular-season football schedules. For several months the board has received input and discussed the issue. The members voted against instituting section football on Thursday, although if the problems persist the question will be revisited at some point in the future.

Now for another clarification: If section football had been approved, everything’s not as simple as some appear to think. There have been questions about travel and long road trips, but people are not realizing what section football might change besides the scheduling system.

Bottom line: If section football were implemented, the sections might not look like the current sections. So don’t go down that, uh, road and assume the section your team is in right now will look exactly the same under section football scheduling."
 


Is Cretin opting up to 6A or will they battle Totino, Mahtomedi, etc. in the new 5A?
 


JTristesse said:
At least wait till Texas go's to 6A. Geez
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I understand Texas plays high quality High School football. I for one am glad nobody involved in High School athletics in Minnesota is striving to be like Texas.
 

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