MSHSL to add Class 6A for football

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Per the League's Facebook page (which is essentially John Millea live-reporting from the board room), 6A will start in the fall of 2012. Details haven't yet been released, but it's looking like the 32 biggest schools.

Section football scheduling was defeated 12-5. Motion for this was brought forth by Wayzata AD Jamie Sherwood, due to the fact that they only played 6 regular season games.

MSHSL Facebook page
 

How long until we see a 7A football?
 

Yeah, I think they should add a 7A for just Eden Prairie, Wayzata, CDH, Minnetonka, Lakeville North & South and 2 others. Why not just have a separate class for every 8 teams? Then, we could have dozens of "state" champions.
 

Let's just give everyone a trophy before the season starts and call it a day.
 

where is Cretin-Derham Hall going to be then if it's based on size alone?
 


Is there an MSHSL message board where these sorts of things can be discussed?
 

we just recently added another class here in Wisconsin also. Pretty ridiculous.
 

Every team should have its own class so every child is a champion.
 

MSHSL should have mandated new conference alignment at the 5a level, not sure how this is going to stop the perception that only EP, Wayzata and Cretin matter.
 



I wonder if that might nudge some of the larger schools from 9-man to Class A.
 

MSHSL: Stupid is as stupid does.

They've ruined every other State Tournament, so let's make it more ruiner. I can't wait until 8A, which is only Eden Prairie and Cretin:

"Eden Prairie has just won their 11th 8A State Title in the last 20 years, followed closely by Cretin's 9 titles in the same period."
 





4four4 said:
How long until we see a 7A football?
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You'll see that when there are 7k kids in certain High schools. The point of classes are so nobody is playing a school more than double their size in the playoffs.

99% People who complain about high number of classes don't understand the rationale behind them.

Good for certain schools that they denied section scheduling. South suburban, nw suburban, and east metro (the one with Stillwater, Woodbury, cretin, ect) are the big winners in that. Wayzata and Eden prairie are the big losers in it.
 

Sectional scheduling would have made a lot more sense than adding another class. I'll bet the politics behind the vote was interesting.
 

From what I read about the meeting, the majority of the board felt that they did not want to eliminate the conference structure simply to benefit a minority of schools that were having problems filling out their schedules.

Personally, I think that misses the point. The rationale behind the new class 6A was to reduce the disparity in size between schools in the largest class. The current class 5A has schools ranging from just over 1,000 enrollment to over 3,000.

But, with the current conference structure, there are conferences where smaller schools have to play larger schools on a yearly basis. in SW MN, there's at least one conference where they have schools in 3 different classes.

So, it's a bad thing when smaller schools play bigger schools in class 5A, but it's ok to have smaller schools play bigger schools in their conferences? I have given up trying to understand any decision the MSHSL makes. (by the way, I think the initials stand for Metro and Suburban High School League.
 

The reason it is okay for smaller schools to play larger schools in their conferences and not in section tourneys is because schools are in conferences by choice and in sections by placement.

If they went to sectional scheduling it would eliminate football conferences. If they eliminated conferences and forced the lakevilles to travel an hour south 3 times a year along with many schools in similar situations, the mshsl would risk overstepping and losing multiple metro conferences in football. Forced regular season scheduling would run the risk of non-lake metro 5A conferences simply dropping out of the mshsl in football just to save money on transportation costs.

Does the mshsl have the power or clout to force lakeville north to play at Rochester mayo and Kennedy to play at Wayzata in the same week while they would rather be playing each other?
Doing so would expand mshsl power beyond what it has ever been. I am not sure they would have the clout to force scheduling upon the south suburban, northwest suburban, and suburban
east. They would run the risk of losing these conferences to their own kind of association. Especially in bad economy it would be very dangerous for the long term health of the mshsl to force section scheduling on a bunch of schools that already have strong conference ties who wouldn't hesitate to do what is best for themselves.
 


Rosemountian said:
The reason it is okay for smaller schools to play larger schools in their conferences and not in section tourneys is because schools are in conferences by choice and in sections by placement.

If they went to sectional scheduling it would eliminate football conferences. If they eliminated conferences and forced the lakevilles to travel an hour south 3 times a year along with many schools in similar situations, the mshsl would risk overstepping and losing multiple metro conferences in football. Forced regular season scheduling would run the risk of non-lake metro 5A conferences simply dropping out of the mshsl in football just to save money on transportation costs.

Does the mshsl have the power or clout to force lakeville north to play at Rochester mayo and Kennedy to play at Wayzata in the same week while they would rather be playing each other?
Doing so would expand mshsl power beyond what it has ever been. I am not sure they would have the clout to force scheduling upon the south suburban, northwest suburban, and suburban
east. They would run the risk of losing these conferences to their own kind of association. Especially in bad economy it would be very dangerous for the long term health of the mshsl to force section scheduling on a bunch of schools that already have strong conference ties who wouldn't hesitate to do what is best for themselves.
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The truth is that the state should have mandated school size long ago, there is no reason for Eden Prairie to not have split into two schools...Chaska and Chanhassen did for gods sake.
 

goldengophers said:
The truth is that the state should have mandated school size long ago, there is no reason for Eden Prairie to not have split into two schools...Chaska and Chanhassen did for gods sake.
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Give me a break. The only reason you want Eden Prairie to split is because your jealous of their athletic success. EP and Wayzata students and taxpayers benefit from their choice to have one high school. With the budget cuts coming to lakeville, perhaps they should have followed EP's example.
 

Rosemountian said:
The reason it is okay for smaller schools to play larger schools in their conferences and not in section tourneys is because schools are in conferences by choice and in sections by placement.

If they went to sectional scheduling it would eliminate football conferences. If they eliminated conferences and forced the lakevilles to travel an hour south 3 times a year along with many schools in similar situations, the mshsl would risk overstepping and losing multiple metro conferences in football. Forced regular season scheduling would run the risk of non-lake metro 5A conferences simply dropping out of the mshsl in football just to save money on transportation costs.

Does the mshsl have the power or clout to force lakeville north to play at Rochester mayo and Kennedy to play at Wayzata in the same week while they would rather be playing each other?
Doing so would expand mshsl power beyond what it has ever been. I am not sure they would have the clout to force scheduling upon the south suburban, northwest suburban, and suburban
east. They would run the risk of losing these conferences to their own kind of association. Especially in bad economy it would be very dangerous for the long term health of the mshsl to force section scheduling on a bunch of schools that already have strong conference ties who wouldn't hesitate to do what is best for themselves.
Click to expand...

1. There is obviously choice involved with athletic conferences but not for a lot of schools. One or two schools go elsewhere from a conference and other schools start scrambling. It becomes more a matter of necessity rather than choice as to the conference that is formed. Not sure about the south, but in the far north metro it's been musical chairs at times. And, I believe, the MSHL has stepped in at times and dictated where schools go.
2. Pretty sure that Fridley versus Totino Grace or Spring Lake Park or Mahtomedi versus North Polars or Simley isn't a game those schools want. Yet those schools are in the same conferences and sectional scheduling would get rid of mismatches that really don't do either team much good. The conference with Spring Lake Park and Fridley is a result of schools like Cambridge or Princeton deciding to pull out and setting off a chain reaction years ago.
3. Yes, some football teams would travel more. You would also have less travel for some and many rivalries would remain intact. Conversely, without worrying about a conference for football, you probably could form conferences that would be more compact and compatible. That would cut down the traveling for all sorts of other teams.
4. It's ridiculous to state that schools would pull out of the MSHL if sectional scheduling came about. They might be unhappy until they adjust, but this is as empty a threat as could be. So, Rosemountain, why should a school like, oh, let's say Rosemount, for example, be able to dictate who they play in football, while a school like Fridley has their asses kicked pretty much all the time and not have much say about it?
 

AO54 said:
Give me a break. The only reason you want Eden Prairie to split is because your jealous of their athletic success. EP and Wayzata students and taxpayers benefit from their choice to have one high school. With the budget cuts coming to lakeville, perhaps they should have followed EP's example.
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Wayzata is one of two schools in Plymouth, no single city in the state of Minnesota has gone Eden Prairie's route. I personally think it's dumb for a city to sacrifice education for athletics.
 

goldengophers said:
The truth is that the state should have mandated school size long ago, there is no reason for Eden Prairie to not have split into two schools...Chaska and Chanhassen did for gods sake.
Click to expand...

This is a rather common but poorly researched position. Eden Prairie administrators made the decision in the early 1980's to remain a single-HS community as they realized the enrollment would peak (it did several years ago and is currently declining) and they didn't want to be saddled with multiple buildings that were being underused. You only need to look at Edina (East and West) and Bloomington (Lincoln, Kennedy, and Jefferson) for examples of communities where multiple high-schools were eventually closed as enrollments declined.
Chaska and Chanhassen will eventually have a population (5, 10, 15, 20 years from now?) that can support a second high-school. The decision to build it now was probably premature but their hand was forced as the existing high-school had reached its capacity.
Finally, who is the arbiter of what the maximum should be? There are several schools (Wayzata among them) that are larger than Eden Prairie now; should they build a second high school also?
If you want to believe schools are making these decisions based on athletics rather than fiscal prudence you may want to research the school-board meeting minutes when these decisions were made.
 

epgopher said:
This is a rather common but poorly researched position. Eden Prairie administrators made the decision in the early 1980's to remain a single-HS community as they realized the enrollment would peak (it did several years ago and is currently declining) and they didn't want to be saddled with multiple buildings that were being underused. You only need to look at Edina (East and West) and Bloomington (Lincoln, Kennedy, and Jefferson) for examples of communities where multiple high-schools were eventually closed as enrollments declined.
Chaska and Chanhassen will eventually have a population (5, 10, 15, 20 years from now?) that can support a second high-school. The decision to build it now was probably premature but their hand was forced as the existing high-school had reached its capacity.
Finally, who is the arbiter of what the maximum should be? There are several schools (Wayzata among them) that are larger than Eden Prairie now; should they build a second high school also?
If you want to believe schools are making these decisions based on athletics rather than fiscal prudence you may want to research the school-board meeting minutes when these decisions were made.
Click to expand...
Shockingly I've heard the argument a million times but I understand it's a difference of opinion that we aren't going to come to agreement on.
 

goldengophers said:
Shockingly I've heard the argument a million times but I understand it's a difference of opinion that we aren't going to come to agreement on.
Click to expand...

Yiour statement is an opinion, mine is a statement of facts based on knowledge and an understanding of the rationale behind the decisions.
 

epgopher said:
This is a rather common but poorly researched position. Eden Prairie administrators made the decision in the early 1980's to remain a single-HS community as they realized the enrollment would peak (it did several years ago and is currently declining) and they didn't want to be saddled with multiple buildings that were being underused. You only need to look at Edina (East and West) and Bloomington (Lincoln, Kennedy, and Jefferson) for examples of communities where multiple high-schools were eventually closed as enrollments declined.
Chaska and Chanhassen will eventually have a population (5, 10, 15, 20 years from now?) that can support a second high-school. The decision to build it now was probably premature but their hand was forced as the existing high-school had reached its capacity.
Finally, who is the arbiter of what the maximum should be? There are several schools (Wayzata among them) that are larger than Eden Prairie now; should they build a second high school also?
If you want to believe schools are making these decisions based on athletics rather than fiscal prudence you may want to research the school-board meeting minutes when these decisions were made.
Click to expand...
If you can dig up school board meeting minutes from nearly 30 years ago, maybe I'll take a look.
 

goldengophers said:
The truth is that the state should have mandated school size long ago, there is no reason for Eden Prairie to not have split into two schools...Chaska and Chanhassen did for gods sake.
Click to expand...

Mandating school size to independent school districts is not done in any state in the united states. Big schools are cheaper to run. There are positives and negatives to both large and small schools.
 

Mulligan
If you don't think doubling or tripling transportation costs in a bad economy while forcing schools to play schools they would rather not play would be incentive for 3 major conferences to split from the mshsl and potentially form their own association championship, then you clearly don't understand the budgetary and political concerns of many of the schools in these districts. In Minnesota, the schools have a lot of power over the mshsl. It is just the way it is. Not saying it would definitely happen, but I am saying that through speaking with many people who I know especially in the south metro it would definitely on the table.

When the south suburban signed a deal with the lake to play non conference games, the other option they considered was not signing. The lake would have disbanded, the mshsl would have placed 3-4 of the 5 in the SSC. And all of the other schools (the schools currently in the SSC) would have immediately dropped out of the SSC to form a new conference leaving the newly placed former lake schools out in the cold.

Fact of the matter is, in minnesota, in terms of power, the schools and districts > the mshsl
 

Rosemountian said:
Mulligan
If you don't think doubling or tripling transportation costs in a bad economy while forcing schools to play schools they would rather not play would be incentive for 3 major conferences to split from the mshsl and potentially form their own association championship, then you clearly don't understand the budgetary and political concerns of many of the schools in these districts. In Minnesota, the schools have a lot of power over the mshsl. It is just the way it is. Not saying it would definitely happen, but I am saying that through speaking with many people who I know especially in the south metro it would definitely on the table.

When the south suburban signed a deal with the lake to play non conference games, the other option they considered was not signing. The lake would have disbanded, the mshsl would have placed 3-4 of the 5 in the SSC. And all of the other schools (the schools currently in the SSC) would have immediately dropped out of the SSC to form a new conference leaving the newly placed former lake schools out in the cold.

Fact of the matter is, in minnesota, in terms of power, the schools and districts > the mshsl
Click to expand...
Section scheduling makes more sense in a 3 or 4 class system. With 7, travel costs would definitely get up there.

The south suburban is a joke. They absolutely robbed games from the lake conference kids, especially the Wayzata kids. And the non-conference games they did get, they had to pay the opposing school thousands of dollars to schedule the game regardless of whether the game was home or away. I could have possibly seen the south suburban runaway as ultimately a good thing that resulted in fewer classes and section scheduling, but they've obviously moved in the other direction.

Whatever happened to wanting to improve yourself by playing against the best? What kind of example are we setting for the kids?
 

Think logically!

What reason would south suburban schools have for playing Wayzata?

It is by far the longest trip they would make all year. Think about 9th and 10th grade sports. It is completely illogical for being in a conference with Wayzata. There are 20 schools within 20 minutes of Eagan high school and you want them to drive 50 to play Wayzata? Nice

Why would a school possibly want to make a longer trip to play a school that is not a comparable opponent. You are lakeville north. You can choose to drive 10 minutes and play eastview who has a similar number of students and who has a similar socio-economic population and facilities. Or you can drive an hour and play a school that has 50% more students, better facilities, and a more wealthy student body.

If you are an administrator at lakeville north and you decide to play Wayzata every year, you are an absolute idiot.

You are obviously a lake conference guy. Let me ask you a question:
Why should districts in the south metro be forced to do something that is bad from both a financial and competitive standpoint? Just to be nice?

In the real world, schools don't put their own self interest on the backburner to look out for wayzatas interest. I'm sorry if you feel they should.

It isn't the west metros athletic success that gets others around the state pissed at them. It is their sense of entitlement that you so beautifully displayed here.

If my districts administrators were putting the well being of Wayzata football players ahead of the well being of my districts athletic programs and athletes, they would get dismissed or relieved rather quickly.

Those living in the west metro must believe that the purpose of schools around the state are to provide kids from Wayzata with a great athletic experience. Earth to Wayzata fan. The purpose of the district 196 athletic programs is to provide an experience for kids from apple Valley, rosemount, and Eagan. Down here, we quite frankly don't care one bit about wayzatas problems scheduling football games. Maybe if you think we should, people in Wayzata should start sending some tax dollars our way.
 

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