MSHSL says No to seeding State FB playoffs

[Ope3]

Letting every team in the class into the playoff, is what I mean by that. It is obviously being done.


Teams that win 1, 2, 3, maybe even those that win 4 games in the regular season, out of 8, have absolutely no business in the post-season.

Yes, I do get that and agree on the under .500 teams. There may be a rare case of a 3 win team that had to play primarily teams above their class that could do some damage, but that's an outlier.

I just associate "kumbaya" as harmony and unanimously in favor of. I question if most lower seeds want to continue at that point.

I am not trying to be antagonizing, just pointing out even the "every one gets in" philosophy has significant downstream impacts.

In my example for Sec 1/5A it's a huge advantage to the 1 & 2 seeds. In the end Mayo was going to win anyway, no matter what the format was.

 

[Ope3]

Maybe they should just have an option to opt in or out of the playoffs. Allow the teams to decide if they want to play another game. I bet some teams would opt out and it would cut down on the dumb Tuesday night games and travel.

Allowing the teams to decide seems problematic. What if the Coaches-Players are at odds with the AD on that call?

As for the players, majority rule? I would never think that would be a unanimous decision.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Allowing the teams to decide seems problematic. What if the Coaches-Players are at odds with the AD on that call?

As for the players, majority rule? I would never think that would be a unanimous decision.

I agree it's not the way to go. The Tuesday night games in the 1st round have been an issue for 30+ years. It's a school night, no one attends, blow outs, etc. etc. It's time the MSHSL revamp the playoffs. Add in player safety and it's a not brainer. Teams should get more rest between Wednesday MEA game and the playoffs.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Maybe they should just have an option to opt in or out of the playoffs. Allow the teams to decide if they want to play another game. I bet some teams would opt out and it would cut down on the dumb Tuesday night games and travel.

I know of several instances where a #8 seed has forfeited its opening-round Section playoff game - often due to low numbers and not wanting to play FR on varsity.

but that is not necessarily a seeding issue. IMHO, having covered HS sports in MN for 24 years before I retired, the issue is that the good teams generally stay good while the bad teams get worse. when a program is bad, kids don't want to be involved with a losing program. it's just no fun. so kids don't go out, numbers go down, and the program gets worse while the gap between the top and the bottom gets larger.

I don't know how you fix that, short of allowing more consolidation. in recent years, I've seen several programs announce they were not playing a Varsity schedule for a year or two while they tried to build up the numbers in the lower classes - but that mucks up scheduling for the other teams in the district or section. I've also seen teams petitioning to move down a class - and I know of at least one Class AA school that was allowed to play a Class A schedule in football, because the alternative was that the school was not going to field a Varsity team.

 

[Some guy]

I know of several instances where a #8 seed has forfeited its opening-round Section playoff game - often due to low numbers and not wanting to play FR on varsity.

but that is not necessarily a seeding issue. IMHO, having covered HS sports in MN for 24 years before I retired, the issue is that the good teams generally stay good while the bad teams get worse. when a program is bad, kids don't want to be involved with a losing program. it's just no fun. so kids don't go out, numbers go down, and the program gets worse while the gap between the top and the bottom gets larger.

I don't know how you fix that, short of allowing more consolidation. in recent years, I've seen several programs announce they were not playing a Varsity schedule for a year or two while they tried to build up the numbers in the lower classes - but that mucks up scheduling for the other teams in the district or section. I've also seen teams petitioning to move down a class - and I know of at least one Class AA school that was allowed to play a Class A schedule in football, because the alternative was that the school was not going to field a Varsity team.

The correct solution is to have larger classes so the teams at the bottom of these 32-48 team classes aren’t getting rocked in 7 games a year.

Another way is to create smaller successes for programs to celebrate. It seems counter intuitive to exclude teams from the playoffs. But right now Eagan goes 5-3 and loses in the first round and it’s kind of forgotten about 2 years later. In a different system Eagan gets to celebrate a playoff birth for the first time in X years.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I know of several instances where a #8 seed has forfeited its opening-round Section playoff game - often due to low numbers and not wanting to play FR on varsity.

but that is not necessarily a seeding issue. IMHO, having covered HS sports in MN for 24 years before I retired, the issue is that the good teams generally stay good while the bad teams get worse. when a program is bad, kids don't want to be involved with a losing program. it's just no fun. so kids don't go out, numbers go down, and the program gets worse while the gap between the top and the bottom gets larger.

I don't know how you fix that, short of allowing more consolidation. in recent years, I've seen several programs announce they were not playing a Varsity schedule for a year or two while they tried to build up the numbers in the lower classes - but that mucks up scheduling for the other teams in the district or section. I've also seen teams petitioning to move down a class - and I know of at least one Class AA school that was allowed to play a Class A schedule in football, because the alternative was that the school was not going to field a Varsity team.

Some people don't understand how fragile football programs are in the out-state areas. Barely hanging on.

 

[Some guy]

Some people don't understand how fragile football programs are in the out-state areas. Barely hanging on.

This is true in the metro too.

Burnsville is like the 15th biggest school in the state.
They don’t carry a JV team or sophomore team the past two seasons.

 

[MaxyJR1]

This is true in the metro too.

Burnsville is like the 15th biggest school in the state.
They don’t carry a JV team or sophomore team the past two seasons.

But yet they should be in the same class with teams that have 9A/B, 10A/B, JV and Varsity, plus 4 teams per grade in youth football. This is all the more reason to go to the WI model of scheduling.

 

[gopher7]

The HS league has always resisted seeding tournaments 1 through 8 - because (apparently) they don't want the #8 team to feel bad because "they were the worst team" or something like that.

So instead only one team left with low self esteem there are 3.

 

[MaxyJR1]

So instead only one team left with low self esteem there are 3.

I'd be curious to know how many unseeded teams have advanced in the state basketball tournaments. Same would likely happen in football. Tough to see a 6-8 seed winning it all if even winning a game. I really have no preference of 1-8 vs 1-5.

 

[Gophers_4life]

when a program is bad, kids don't want to be involved with a losing program. it's just no fun. so kids don't go out, numbers go down, and the program gets worse while the gap between the top and the bottom gets larger.

I think this issue is especially pronounced at some metro schools that are forced to be in a large class because of their enrollment size, but have awful programs, with low numbers, and just can't compete with the other schools in the class.

They have plenty of good players within their boundaries, but those players play at other schools elsewhere (private or public).


Competitiveness and program numbers should be a bigger component of classification.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I'd be curious to know how many unseeded teams have advanced in the state basketball tournaments. Same would likely happen in football. Tough to see a 6-8 seed winning it all if even winning a game. I really have no preference of 1-8 vs 1-5.

Last year: State Boys BB --
Class A: a 5 seed beat a 4 in the Qtrs. 1 vs 2 in finals, 1 wins title
Class AA: a 5 beat a 4 in Qtrs. 1 vs 3 in finals. 3 seed wins title
Class AAA: top four seeds advanced. 1 vs 3 in finals. 1 seed wins title
Class 4A: A random draw team beat the 2 seed in Qtrs. 1 vs 3 in finals. 1 Seed won title.

so at least one lower seed advanced in 3 of the four classes, with one random-draw team making the semi-finals. the 2 seed did not make the finals in 3 of the four classes.

 

[GFBfan]

These games should not be happening, period. Waste of everyone's time and resources. Risking injury to the team that is going to win, for no valid reason.


Even if you kept the system exactly in-tact as it is, but simple said "if you win less than 4 games in the regular season, you are not eligible for the section tournament" ...... right there, you just improved everything by 1000%.

Every sport lets every team into the postseason tournament. Football should be no different.

Playing Friday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Saturday is should not happen. The HS league mandated different practice schedules at the beginning of the year back in about 2015, due to player safety concerns, yet has done nothing about that end of season stretch, which is ridiculous. Extend the season one more week like they had to this year (just wouldn't have a two week layoff between semi's and finals)

 

[Gophers_4life]

Every sport lets every team into the postseason tournament.

It should happen for no sports!

Playing Friday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Saturday is should not happen. The HS league mandated different practice schedules at the beginning of the year back in about 2015, due to player safety concerns, yet has done nothing about that end of season stretch, which is ridiculous.

Agreed.

Get rid of the silly Tuesday round. One giant leap, for mankind.

 

[Ope3]

Every sport lets every team into the postseason tournament. Football should be no different.

Playing Friday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Saturday is should not happen. The HS league mandated different practice schedules at the beginning of the year back in about 2015, due to player safety concerns, yet has done nothing about that end of season stretch, which is ridiculous. Extend the season one more week like they had to this year (just wouldn't have a two week layoff between semi's and finals)

I don't think playing the Prep Bowl in December is really optimal. I was out of town but was attendance affected? I have to think it was, playing on the first Friday in December as opposed to Thanksgiving Friday when everyone has the day off.

Semi-Final Weekend would also be a mess, as Thursday would not be available due to a holiday, forcing games to be played Wed-Fri-Sat.

Also has impacts to the Winter Sports waiting for their football players to finish their seasons.

I also just don't agree with the "football should be no different" sentiment. It is different. Football is a "once a week" sport with different injury components. All other sports play twice or three times as many regular season games. Tacking on 1 game is not that big of a deal for every other sport.

 

[GopherRock]

Or move Week 1 of football the week before Labor Day.

As for the COVID year that someone mentioned the League supposedly loved: losing the gate and TV revenue for boys basketball and football for 2020 blew a huge hole in the FY21 budget that took a huge amount of hassle to resolve.

 

[Ope3]

Or move Week 1 of football the week before Labor Day.

Also problematic, having everyone's summer vacation cut a week short, lower attendance and playing an additional week in hot temperatures.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I don't think playing the Prep Bowl in December is really optimal. I was out of town but was attendance affected? I have to think it was, playing on the first Friday in December as opposed to Thanksgiving Friday when everyone has the day off.

Semi-Final Weekend would also be a mess, as Thursday would not be available due to a holiday, forcing games to be played Wed-Fri-Sat.

Also has impacts to the Winter Sports waiting for their football players to finish their seasons.

I also just don't agree with the "football should be no different" sentiment. It is different. Football is a "once a week" sport with different injury components. All other sports play twice or three times as many regular season games. Tacking on 1 game is not that big of a deal for every other sport.

Correct.

Eliminating the Tuesday round, of a bunch of stinker games for teams who don't deserve to be in the section playoffs in the first place, is the solution that should be done.

 

[disco]

Are you saying Tonka isn't rivals with Wayzata? If so, you don't know those schools very well.

They're huge rivals. I was at the basketball game a few weeks ago. I haven't seen that kind of excitement at a high school sporting event in a really long time.

 

[disco]

This is true in the metro too.

Burnsville is like the 15th biggest school in the state.
They don’t carry a JV team or sophomore team the past two seasons.

Same with schools like Hopkins and Park Center. Though I have a theory on Hopkins. They are I believe the last major metro school district to have a Junior High model, with the high school 10-12 only. They also have a very strange youth model compared to surrounding schools which I think hinders their feeder program.

 

[disco]

I think this issue is especially pronounced at some metro schools that are forced to be in a large class because of their enrollment size, but have awful programs, with low numbers, and just can't compete with the other schools in the class.

They have plenty of good players within their boundaries, but those players play at other schools elsewhere (private or public).


Competitiveness and program numbers should be a bigger component of classification.

Open enrollment has definitely had an impact. Almost everyone I know who lives in the Hopkins district has open enrolled their kids into Minnetonka. And if not for open enrollment, Minnetonka would be ~ 20% smaller and wouldn't be the 2nd or 3rd largest school in the state. That's how many of their students come from outside the district.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

John Millea of the MSHSL (media specialist) does a podcast with Jim Souhan on HS sports topics.

In their most recent podcast, they discussed the vote on seeding State FB.

in a nutshell, Millea's points:
-the vote was unanimous
-no state tournament in any sport is seeded 1-8
-if the Football advisory committee presented a proposal to seed 1-5, Millea said "it would pass."
-Millea said the state does not want a team to be the #8 or 'last' seed in a tournament.

 

[Gophers_4life]

-Millea said the state does not want a team to be the #8 or 'last' seed in a tournament.

"The state"

No. You don't represent "the state". You're just a small group of clowns who get to assert your terrible opinions.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

"The state"

No. You don't represent "the state". You're just a small group of clowns who get to assert your terrible opinions.

I meant the State High School League. I thought that was understood from the context. I was wrong.

But, if I wanted to quibble, the MSHSL executive board - in theory - represents all the high schools in the state. the members are either elected or appointed. there are advisory committees for each sport, which have the ability to present suggestions for rule changes, which are then voted on. so, in that sense, the board does speak for "the state."

there have to be rules. and there has to be some process for adopting rules.

what alternative would you propose?

 

[xyz1]

The seeding thing is a perfect example of what drives people so crazy about the MSHSL (my view is that a fair amount of the criticism is justified but that they also have a difficult job and in some cases have to answer to many constituencies with conflicting desires). Is it really that bad to be seeded 8th in a state tournament? Will kids get scarred? Of course not, but the MSHSL apparently thinks it is. This leads to stupid things like A through 6A in football - rather than scar kids for life by having them play class C or D football (sarcasm . . . ) we have to have unwieldy, difficult to use class names with multiple A's.

 

[disco]

The seeding thing is a perfect example of what drives people so crazy about the MSHSL (my view is that a fair amount of the criticism is justified but that they also have a difficult job and in some cases have to answer to many constituencies with conflicting desires). Is it really that bad to be seeded 8th in a state tournament? Will kids get scarred? Of course not, but the MSHSL apparently thinks it is. This leads to stupid things like A through 6A in football - rather than scar kids for life by having them play class C or D football (sarcasm . . . ) we have to have unwieldy, difficult to use class names with multiple A's.

The whole AAAAAAAAAAAAA (however many A's you want to add), is a huge pet peeve of mine. It IS unwieldy and stupid. I don't think we're the only state that does this however.

 

[disco]

Was there a vote again this year on boy's volleyball? I'd really love to see it pass.

 

[Ope3]

The whole AAAAAAAAAAAAA (however many A's you want to add), is a huge pet peeve of mine. It IS unwieldy and stupid. I don't think we're the only state that does this however.

Instead of Class 6A/AAAAAA why isn't just called Class 6? (and so on down the line)

 

[Some guy]

Instead of Class 6A/AAAAAA why isn't just called Class 6? (and so on down the line)

Because if we did it that way it would be class 7 not class 6

 

[Gophers_4life]

I meant the State High School League. I thought that was understood from the context. I was wrong.

But, if I wanted to quibble, the MSHSL executive board - in theory - represents all the high schools in the state. the members are either elected or appointed. there are advisory committees for each sport, which have the ability to present suggestions for rule changes, which are then voted on. so, in that sense, the board does speak for "the state."

there have to be rules. and there has to be some process for adopting rules.

what alternative would you propose?

I was replying to Millea saying "the state". The MSHSL is not "the state", they don't well represent the opinions of the state, and they aren't elected.

Many better alternatives to what we have now, have been proposed in this thread.