MSHSL says No to seeding State FB playoffs

[MaxyJR1]

I believe 6a is looking to go back to more section play during the season. Play the 7 teams in your section and one crossover game. All classes are waiting for enrollment numbers and then classes, sections and districts determined. All schedules will be announced late this year. It will be a two year cycle.

As to the fewer teams making the playoffs, that could be looked at, but there aren’t a ton of sections with more than 6 teams. There is only one 7 team section in 4A or 5A. Class 3A only has one 8 team section. Also there are some sections within district play that are five teams deep. It would be hard to eliminate teams. May have to go to WI model of 9 game season with teams over .500 making playoffs.

I tend to like WI model

 

[Some guy]

I believe 6a is looking to go back to more section play during the season. Play the 7 teams in your section and one crossover game. All classes are waiting for enrollment numbers and then classes, sections and districts determined. All schedules will be announced late this year. It will be a two year cycle.

As to the fewer teams making the playoffs, that could be looked at, but there aren’t a ton of sections with more than 6 teams. There is only one 7 team section in 4A or 5A. Class 3A only has one 8 team section. Also there are some sections within district play that are five teams deep. It would be hard to eliminate teams. May have to go to WI model of 9 game season with teams over .500 making playoffs.

I tend to like WI model

Love the WI model.

Also think there are too many classes if there are classes with just 32-48 teams

 

[gopher-revolution]

My memory is a little fuzzy on this (and many things) - but several years back, I saw or read some kind of statement from a MSHSL official.

the comment was to the effect that the goal of the state playoffs was not to guarantee a matchup of the best teams - it was to guarantee a matchup based on geography and enrollment. this might have been before they started the 1 through 5 seeding in hoops. but my brother, who has been involved with some state coaches' association business, had the same idea or recollection.

the gist was that the MSHSL really didn't care if the state finals matched the best 2 teams, because that really wasn't their intent.

if accurate, that tells you a lot about where the MSHSL is com

I believe 6a is looking to go back to more section play during the season. Play the 7 teams in your section and one crossover game. All classes are waiting for enrollment numbers and then classes, sections and districts determined. All schedules will be announced late this year. It will be a two year cycle.

As to the fewer teams making the playoffs, that could be looked at, but there aren’t a ton of sections with more than 6 teams. There is only one 7 team section in 4A or 5A. Class 3A only has one 8 team section. Also there are some sections within district play that are five teams deep. It would be hard to eliminate teams. May have to go to WI model of 9 game season with teams over .500 making playoffs.

I tend to like WI model

I believe that Wisconsin also sets what level a team is at once they qualify for the tournament. By that I mean you might be playing the regular season at a certain level, but depending upon who makes the tournament, you might be moved up or down. I am not 100% positive on this, so I hope I'm not spreading a rumor.

 

[Some guy]

I believe that Wisconsin also sets what level a team is at once they qualify for the tournament. By that I mean you might be playing the regular season at a certain level, but depending upon who makes the tournament, you might be moved up or down. I am not 100% positive on this, so I hope I'm not spreading a rumor.

Correct.

People are set in some sort of groupings based on a mix of geographic and of size

All teams 5-4 automatically make playoffs
4-5 teams fill in to fill out brackets based on I believe strength of schedule. (Not sure exactly how the 4-5 full in works).

Then they sort teams into groupings based 100% based on size for playoffs. A school like Chaska could be 6A one year and 5a another year depending on who all qualified for playoffs. But then again Chaska also would probably have to play a 6a team in the regular season too

 

[Gophers_4life]

If they're going to continue doing the kumbaya sections brackets feed into the state bracket in predetermined slots thing, then teams should just play the teams in their section for the bulk of the regular season. Fill the rest of them with cross-over teams from other sections in the same class.

Maybe hold one game for a rivalry, border-crossing game, (Moorhead vs Fargo, etc.), and the like.

There should be no need for districts.

 

[Some guy]

There should be no need for districts.

there is no need for districts

Self scheduling

Section football


Both are far superior models to districts

 

[State of Football]

This "kumbaya" crap is trash.

Whoever got ahold of and installed this into the MSHSL ethos, shame on them.

It’s the member schools that choose to continue geographic representation. This past year was arguably the most competitive and entertaining Prep Bowl. The current model isn’t broken and reduces travel.

Not having non-metro representation in the tournament is bad for high school sports and for Minnesota high school football. Football is typically the second most revenue producing tournament. Hockey and football allow for the other tournaments to be funded and played.

 

[State of Football]

there is no need for districts

Self scheduling

Section football


Both are far superior models to districts

Section football would be great if you had an even number of teams and didn’t increase travel.

 

[Some guy]

Section football would be great if you had an even number of teams and didn’t increase travel.

Section football really tough for the middle 5 classes because they have empty sections.
9 man and 6A have full sections so it’s pretty easy.

I get that they wanted to give some teams a chance by putting 6A into a different group than teams like Moorhead and Rochester schools but to be honest there just aren’t enough teams for 7 classes in Minnesota.

 

[State of Football]

Section football really tough for the middle 5 classes because they have empty sections.
9 man and 6A have full sections so it’s pretty easy.

I get that they wanted to give some teams a chance by putting 6A into a different group than teams like Moorhead and Rochester schools but to be honest there just aren’t enough teams for 7 classes in Minnesota.

Exactly. Unfortunately those top 20 schools by enrollment look really different than the next 28. Mega schools like Minnetonka, Wayzata, Eden Prairie, Edina, prior lake, and Shakopee are difficult to manage with their size. I understand the economics behind one high school but they are not a positive for the other schools.

Schools cooping is another difficult set of circumstances. The Mahnomen Waubons of football are difficult for smaller schools.

Football is not easy. Wisconsin schools collectively do not like their model. It has destroyed rivalries in the post season and shortened the season for the average team.

 

[Gophers_4life]

It’s the member schools that choose to continue geographic representation. This past year was arguably the most competitive and entertaining Prep Bowl. The current model isn’t broken and reduces travel.

Not having non-metro representation in the tournament is bad for high school sports and for Minnesota high school football. Football is typically the second most revenue producing tournament. Hockey and football allow for the other tournaments to be funded and played.

If non-metro schools aren't the top 8 best teams in the state in a given sport, they don't deserve to be in a state bracket.

Flat out truth. I won't change my opinion on that.


And I don't need to, for the simple fact that schools in Duluth, Rochester, Moorhead, St Cloud, Mankato, Brainerd ... they can and do compete with metro schools, just fine. They won't be shut out

 

[Gophers_4life]

Wisconsin schools collectively do not like their model. It has destroyed rivalries in the post season and shortened the season for the average team.

"Shortened" is relative to the inflated seasons of the Minnesota model, so that's not a valid complaint.

If you didn't do good enough in the real regular season, you don't deserve "kumbaya" playoff bid. Won't change my opinion on that.

If it's a rivalry ... then play it in the regular season. There is no such thing as a "playoff only rivalry".

 

[Some guy]

Exactly. Unfortunately those top 20 schools by enrollment look really different than the next 28. Mega schools like Minnetonka, Wayzata, Eden Prairie, Edina, prior lake, and Shakopee are difficult to manage with their size. I understand the economics behind one high school but they are not a positive for the other schools.

Schools cooping is another difficult set of circumstances. The Mahnomen Waubons of football are difficult for smaller schools.

Football is not easy. Wisconsin schools collectively do not like their model. It has destroyed rivalries in the post season and shortened the season for the average team.

You can say wisconsin schools don’t like their model collectively, that doesn’t make it true.
The season is literally not shortened for the average team compared to Minnesota.

Can’t speak to rivalries but the Minnesota system has destroyed rivalries

 

[State of Football]

If non-metro schools aren't the top 8 best teams in the state in a given sport, they don't deserve to be in a state bracket.

Flat out truth. I won't change my opinion on that.


And I don't need to, for the simple fact that schools in Duluth, Rochester, Moorhead, St Cloud, Mankato, Brainerd ... they can and do compete with metro schools, just fine. They won't be shut out

Consider the other 5 classes. (Really only 4 since there are no 9 man metro teams)

 

[State of Football]

You can say wisconsin schools don’t like their model collectively, that doesn’t make it true.
The season is literally not shortened for the average team compared to Minnesota.

Can’t speak to rivalries but the Minnesota system has destroyed rivalries

What rivalries have been destroyed?

 

[Gophers_4life]

Consider the other 5 classes. (Really only 4 since there are no 9 man metro teams)

In classes 1A through 4A, the same thing I said still applies.

The number of metro schools in those classes dwindles pretty fast, I would guess.

 

[State of Football]

Not in 4 and 3 A. Champion New London Spicer wouldn’t have made the final 8 and May not have made the playoffs. Stewartville would have been the 2 seed and was blown out by Hutch. Simley May not have made the playoffs and beat Hutch in the Wisconsin model. Point being, no one knows who the top 8 are with a lack of common opponents.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Not in 4 and 3 A. Champion New London Spicer wouldn’t have made the final 8 and May not have made the playoffs. Stewartville would have been the 2 seed and was blown out by Hutch. Simley May not have made the playoffs and beat Hutch in the Wisconsin model. Point being, no one knows who the top 8 are with a lack of common opponents.

I'm an outsider to this whole process but that would be my concern.

You start getting into the politics of seeding, weighting sorta similar games ... maybe. Get into the "Well Alabama is still better because they lost to teams who beat Alabama!" weirdness.

It's hard.

 

[Some guy]

What rivalries have been destroyed?

Like Minnetonka not playing wayzata
Rosemount, Eastview, Apple Valley not all playing each other.
Etc

There are a ton. Not going to list them all.

 

[State of Football]

Like Minnetonka not playing wayzata
Rosemount, Eastview, Apple Valley not all playing each other.
Etc

There are a ton. Not going to list them all.

The schools you mentioned, other than AV, all have the ability to play those teams. All they have to do is request it in their District. AV is a 5A school and struggles. Eastview has struggled as well. Minnetonka has better rivals than Wayzata or Vice Versa.

 

[Some guy]

The schools you mentioned, other than AV, all have the ability to play those teams. All they have to do is request it in their District. AV is a 5A school and struggles. Eastview has struggled as well. Minnetonka has better rivals than Wayzata or Vice Versa.

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about on who is rivals with who
You also clearly have no idea how the schedules are built….they don’t just get to request teams to play.

So I’m done discussing with you on this topic as you’re just making stuff up.

 

[State of Football]

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about on who is rivals with who
You also clearly have no idea how the schedules are built….they don’t just get to request teams to play.

So I’m done discussing with you on this topic as you’re just making stuff up.

I’ll take that bet. Watch how the next round of scheduling goes. Are you aware of the football school information form schools completed two weeks ago? The results were very insightful and would disagree with your take. The AD’s from 6A exactly what they want. Unfortunately there’s a couple of different plans.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Not in 4 and 3 A. Champion New London Spicer wouldn’t have made the final 8

Clearly the East Central South was stacked.
A 6-0 team, a 5-1 team that lost to the 6-0 team by a score of 25-35, and a 4-2 team that lost to the 6-0 team by a score of 29-33 and to the 5-1 team by a score of 36-38 (in the 2nd week of the year).

I don't agree at all that NLS would be a for sure outside the top 8, given those facts.

If they did: well, then don't lose those two games. No matter how many of a "top X" field you have, there will always be a first one out.

Stewartville would have been the 2 seed and was blown out by Hutch.

Hutch was 6-1, Stew'ville 7-0. That's no guarantee that voters/seeding committee wouldn't be able to determine Hutch as the correct #2 seed.

Why did Hutch lose to Becker? That's on them.

Why did Stew'ville sail through their district, which included a 5A Rochester public school, sail through their section, and then get smashed by Hutch?

Simley May not have made the playoffs and beat Hutch in the Wisconsin model.

Huh?? Simley lost one game all year, to 5A Mahtomedi (who went to the 5A semi-final).

They're guaranteed in a top 8 seeded 4A playoff bracket.



None of the examples you cite are good enough reasons for the kumbaya nonsense that is used in Minnesota.

Point being, no one knows who the top 8 are with a lack of common opponents.

This is by far the best point you made. It is a fair point.

But, humans have a great tool at their disposal: you take football experts, like former coaches, and you have them watch games, then rank teams using the eye test.

Completely valid.

 

[Word]

The schools you mentioned, other than AV, all have the ability to play those teams. All they have to do is request it in their District. AV is a 5A school and struggles. Eastview has struggled as well. Minnetonka has better rivals than Wayzata or Vice Versa.

Are you saying Tonka isn't rivals with Wayzata? If so, you don't know those schools very well.

 

[Some guy]

I’ll take that bet. Watch how the next round of scheduling goes. Are you aware of the football school information form schools completed two weeks ago? The results were very insightful and would disagree with your take. The AD’s from 6A exactly what they want. Unfortunately there’s a couple of different plans.

Everything we were talking about was past tense.
I’ve already said they’re fixing 6a in this very thread
Nice hot take that Minnetonka and wayzata aren’t rivals though!

 

[Gophers_4life]

Also, "top 8" is just pulled from a hat. It doesn't have to be 8.

Even top 16 would be vastly better than having every team in the class get in defacto from the section tournaments.

You could do something like "top 8 from the North, and top 8 from the South" and have games like 1N vs 8S, 1S vs 8N, and so on.

 

[Ope3]

None of the examples you cite are good enough reasons for the kumbaya nonsense that is used in Minnesota.

There is no such thing as "kumbaya" in terms of Minnesota HS football either currently nor is it ever attainable. I'm not sure why it's part of your repeated vernacular.

Every system that exists or proposed both in terms of the State Tournament/Prep Bowl and Sections has benefits to some, infuriates others and has significant financial/travel impacts (positive/negative).

Even letting everyone in the Section Playoffs is not "kumbaya" to all. Take Rochester JM this past season, in Sec 1 - 5A. Easily the worst team I have seen in that section since I have followed it in 2015 when Northfield was shifted. JM not have a regular season game where they lost by less than 20 points, and included a defeat of 54-0 to 4A Stewartville. JM I would venture would have had trouble beating any 5A teams and pretty much all 4A teams.

You think JM (6th last seed) really wanted to travel to Northfield (3rd seed) on a Tuesday night to go 0-9 in a game that was running time for the 4th quarter? Nothing kumbaya about that.

Zero gained for Northfield as well. Smallest crowd of the year by far (minimal concessions as I would guess the ticket revenue goes to the section) and put them at a disadvantage for their game the following Saturday at Owatonna who had a bye.

-----
Now my soapbox vantage...

In my opinion, most problematic for HS football and that it seems like 90-95% of the time it seems very easy to know who is going to win before it's ever played. I looked at Northfield's schedule and I KNEW:
- There were 2 games the had no chance of winning.
- There were 4 games they had no chances of losing.
- That meant 2 games that could go either way (Owatonna & New Prague) in my opinion. Which is how it played out.

During their eventual 10 game schedule they played 2 games that were 1 score games (both losses to Owatonna). No other game was decided by fewer than 27 points.

I could say the same for the entire section. For the 6 teams (Roch Mayo, Century, JM, Owatonna, Northfield & Austin) I would have got 1 game wrong. I didn't know JM had surpassed Austin in the basement ahead of time.

Sure that's an anecdotal issue, but looking across the landscape, it's seems pretty common. I have no idea to fix it either, especially without other financial consequences.

 

[Gophers_4life]

There is no such thing as "kumbaya" in terms of Minnesota HS football either currently nor is it ever attainable.

Letting every team in the class into the playoff, is what I mean by that. It is obviously being done.


Teams that win 1, 2, 3, maybe even those that win 4 games in the regular season, out of 8, have absolutely no business in the post-season.

 

[Gophers_4life]

You think JM (6th last seed) really wanted to travel to Northfield (3rd seed) on a Tuesday night to go 0-9 in a game that was running time for the 4th quarter? Nothing kumbaya about that.

Zero gained for Northfield as well. Smallest crowd of the year by far (minimal concessions as I would guess the ticket revenue goes to the section) and put them at a disadvantage for their game the following Saturday at Owatonna who had a bye.

These games should not be happening, period. Waste of everyone's time and resources. Risking injury to the team that is going to win, for no valid reason.


Even if you kept the system exactly in-tact as it is, but simple said "if you win less than 4 games in the regular season, you are not eligible for the section tournament" ...... right there, you just improved everything by 1000%.

 

[MaxyJR1]

These games should not be happening, period. Waste of everyone's time and resources. Risking injury to the team that is going to win, for no valid reason.


Even if you kept the system exactly in-tact as it is, but simple said "if you win less than 4 games in the regular season, you are not eligible for the section tournament" ...... right there, you just improved everything by 1000%.

Maybe they should just have an option to opt in or out of the playoffs. Allow the teams to decide if they want to play another game. I bet some teams would opt out and it would cut down on the dumb Tuesday night games and travel.