MSHSL says No to seeding State FB playoffs

[short ornery norwegian]

(disclaimer - could not find the HS FB thread)

The MSHSL held an executive board meeting on Thurs, Feb 2. There was a proposal to seed the State FB playoffs from 1 to 8 in Classes 9-Man to 5A. The proposal was voted down.

Under the existing policy, 9-Man to 5A have brackets set by pre-determined matchups based on Section # - i.e. Sect 2 vs Sect 3 and so forth. The proposal would have seeded each class 1 to 8. but again, it was voted down.

In other sports, the State Tournaments are seeded 1 through 5, with the remaining teams assigned by random drawing. This in theory helps the chances of the 'best' teams making it to the state finals and avoids a situation where the best two teams might meet in the quarter-finals.

The HS league has always resisted seeding tournaments 1 through 8 - because (apparently) they don't want the #8 team to feel bad because "they were the worst team" or something like that. We'll see if there is a proposal next year to at least do the 1-5 seeding in Football.

(but they did approve changing HS WR from 14 weight classes to 13......)

 

[rugger14]

Win all your games and you are the champ. I do not love it but at the end of the day just win games.

 

[MinnGopher]

If they have shot 8 down before I'm wondering why they didn't just propose 1-5. I think that would be just as effective.

 

[Ope3]

If they have shot 8 down before I'm wondering why they didn't just propose 1-5. I think that would be just as effective.

If I were to guess, it's because the Quarters are held at neutral sites. Sec 1-4 (southern) are one bracket, 5-8 (northern) on the other side. They can limit travel somewhat without seeding for that round.

 

[denguegopher]

Win all your games and you are the champ. I do not love it but at the end of the day just win games.

Well, that goes without saying. How accurate are seedings at the high school level for team sports? My guess is that they might not be very precise.

 

[Gophers_4life]

If I were to guess, it's because the Quarters are held at neutral sites. Sec 1-4 (southern) are one bracket, 5-8 (northern) on the other side. They can limit travel somewhat without seeding for that round.

How does this reasoning not apply to other sports, who have state brackets that are seeded?

The sections, roughly, are the same across sports, no? Not the classes, but the section numbers?

 

[Ope3]

How does this reasoning not apply to other sports, who have state brackets that are seeded?

The sections, roughly, are the same across sports, no? Not the classes, but the section numbers?

State Tournaments for most of the other sports are held at a single site (or city in the case of basketball). Football is not single site until the Semis. It's also spread out over 3 weeks, rather than consecutive days.

Soccer is about the only sport I can think of where the Quarterfinals are multiple sites, but fewer classes and smaller teams perhaps travel is not as much of a concern for that one game.

 

[Gophers_4life]

State Tournaments for most of the other sports are held at a single site (or city in the case of basketball). Football is not single site until the Semis. It's also spread out over 3 weeks, rather than consecutive days.

Soccer is about the only sport I can think of where the Quarterfinals are multiple sites, but fewer classes and smaller teams perhaps travel is not as much of a concern for that one game.

Fair enough.

But then why can't they just say the truth. Travel concerns are an excuse.

Don't make it some BS about not wanting the lowest seeded teams to "feel bad".

 

[Some guy]

If I were to guess, it's because the Quarters are held at neutral sites. Sec 1-4 (southern) are one bracket, 5-8 (northern) on the other side. They can limit travel somewhat without seeding for that round.

Correct.
And transportation for football is a different animal for both team and fans than any other sport.

However, I wish they would’ve still done it. I get why they didn’t.



Then again,
I wish they would drop a class
Go 9 game schedules
Only half the teams make the playoffs in a completely seeded tourney.

 

[Gophers_4life]

They could seed at the semi's? But by then I suppose most of the badness of refusing to seed at the quarters has already taken effect. IE, two of the best teams in the state play in a quarter-final game, robbing fans of getting to see them as the Prep Bowl.

 

[Ope3]

Fair enough.

But then why can't they just say the truth. Travel concerns are an excuse.

Don't make it some BS about not wanting the lowest seeded teams to "feel bad".

There was no stated excuse/reasoning was provided in this thread as to why the MSHSL decided not to seed. My presumption is it's travel related.

The Seeding 1-5 applies to the other sports (not football) which is what SON was alluding to, though if football ever decides to seed they probably won't want the bottom 3 to "feel bad/slighted" either. It was not provided by anyone as to why football decided not to seed at all.

Note, the MSHSL has never stated that's the rationale for seeding the other sports seeding 1-5 only, but I am confident that is the reason.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Under the current format, do they consider travel when picking which sections play each other in the quarterfinals? To prevent teams from one end of the state playing another from the other end?

 

[MaxyJR1]

Fair enough.

But then why can't they just say the truth. Travel concerns are an excuse.

Don't make it some BS about not wanting the lowest seeded teams to "feel bad".

I think that's perception when the fact is travel and regional play. Pretty sure the MSHSL has never said it's due to competition.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Under the current format, do they consider travel when picking which sections play each other in the quarterfinals? To prevent teams from one end of the state playing another from the other end?

Yes, I believe Section 1-4 and 5-8 always are paired for Quarterfinals. That's a south/north split. However there are still some odd locations for those games where there would be closer options. However, turf, seating capacity, and wanting to host all play into that.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Under the current format, do they consider travel when picking which sections play each other in the quarterfinals? To prevent teams from one end of the state playing another from the other end?

well for the 2022 State playoffs, the brackets for every class (except 6A) had
Sect 3 vs Sect 4
Sect 7 vs Sect 8
(winners meet in semis)
Sect 1 vs Sect 2
Sect 5 vs Sect 6
(winners meet in semis)

so the quarter-final matchups each had adjacent sections. The semi-finals each had one 'southern' team against one 'northern' team.

in other years I think they have gone 1 vs 3, 2 vs 4, 5 vs 7 & 6 vs 8 - but they don't cross the 'southern' 4 sections with the 'northern' 4 sections in the quarter-finals.

another issue is that all the quarter-final games are played on artificial turf fields - which means some of the smaller schools still have to travel. in 9-man, Spring Grove and Hancock played at Macalester College in St. Paul - so both schools had long trips.

Note - the geographical differences tend to be the greatest in the smaller classes: 9-man, A and AA because those schools are in smaller, more rural communities. as you get into 3A, 4A and 5A, those schools are in larger communities and less likely to be in the boonies.

 

[MaxyJR1]

(disclaimer - could not find the HS FB thread)

The MSHSL held an executive board meeting on Thurs, Feb 2. There was a proposal to seed the State FB playoffs from 1 to 8 in Classes 9-Man to 5A. The proposal was voted down.

Under the existing policy, 9-Man to 5A have brackets set by pre-determined matchups based on Section # - i.e. Sect 2 vs Sect 3 and so forth. The proposal would have seeded each class 1 to 8. but again, it was voted down.

In other sports, the State Tournaments are seeded 1 through 5, with the remaining teams assigned by random drawing. This in theory helps the chances of the 'best' teams making it to the state finals and avoids a situation where the best two teams might meet in the quarter-finals.

The HS league has always resisted seeding tournaments 1 through 8 - because (apparently) they don't want the #8 team to feel bad because "they were the worst team" or something like that. We'll see if there is a proposal next year to at least do the 1-5 seeding in Football.

(but they did approve changing HS WR from 14 weight classes to 13......)

They also cut out overtime for regular season soccer and games will end in a tie. Expanded playoff volleyball rosters from 15-18. They turned down a request to add a 3rd class in boys and girls tennis. Approved 1-5 seeding for class A tennis to match AA tennis at State. Approved running time in Soccer if 5 goal lead in second half.

Still waiting on numbers to reclass/section football for 2023/24 seasons.

 

[MaxyJR1]

well for the 2022 State playoffs, the brackets for every class (except 6A) had
Sect 3 vs Sect 4
Sect 7 vs Sect 8
(winners meet in semis)
Sect 1 vs Sect 2
Sect 5 vs Sect 6
(winners meet in semis)

so the quarter-final matchups each had adjacent sections. The semi-finals each had one 'southern' team against one 'northern' team.

in other years I think they have gone 1 vs 3, 2 vs 4, 5 vs 7 & 6 vs 8 - but they don't cross the 'southern' 4 sections with the 'northern' 4 sections in the quarter-finals.

another issue is that all the quarter-final games are played on artificial turf fields - which means some of the smaller schools still have to travel. in 9-man, Spring Grove and Hancock played at Macalester College in St. Paul - so both schools had long trips.

Note - the geographical differences tend to be the greatest in the smaller classes: 9-man, A and AA because those schools are in smaller, more rural communities. as you get into 3A, 4A and 5A, those schools are in larger communities and less likely to be in the boonies.

Back in the 90's the sections would set for 2 years. For example, section 1 played 4 for two years in the quarterfinal and each section hosted a home game.

 

[Some guy]

The national federation also changed the enforcement of holding to closer match that of the nfl

No more 1st and 28 after a hold 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage

 

[MaxyJR1]

The national federation also changed the enforcement of holding to closer match that of the nfl

No more 1st and 28 after a hold 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage

Fresh off the presses.

Player Towels Part of High School Football Rules Changes for 2023 Season - National Sporting Goods Association

Player towels were the one piece of equipment that is part of the 2023 NFHS rule changes for high school football.

nsga.org

 

[MaxyJR1]

The national federation also changed the enforcement of holding to closer match that of the nfl

No more 1st and 28 after a hold 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage

HS and the College game become more alike. It allows for easier transition for officials back and forth between officiating the two levels.

 

[gopher-revolution]

I don't know if this clarifies or muddies anything, but it is information I can share with you. Two years ago a couple of coaches took a look at the previous two years of playoffs in classes 9-man through 5A. 6A was left out due to the fact that they already seed their state brackets. It was noticed that there were only two 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 upsets in sectional playoff first round games. The average win margin in 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 was closer to 40 points than 30 points, I believe. A head coach in the SE corner of the state presented a plan to the MFCA with the hopes they would bring it to the MSHSL for approval. The plan would have been to reduce the sectional playoff games to the top four teams and allow the rest of the teams to play one more game if they wish. Perhaps play another section where you can put 8 vs. 8, etc. These teams would have one more chance to win a game against a team that they would be more evenly matched up against. There have been a couple of teams that have chosen to forfeit their first round game instead of taking a whooping to end their season.

The proposal would have one round of sectional playoffs which would reduce the teams to 16 in each class. Then they would seed the remaining 16 teams using the QRF system and play at neutral sites for the rest of the tournament. Part of the rationale for this was in order to allow the best teams to have a chance to make it the farthest. An example of this would be to look at Section 1AA. Caledonia has had a stranglehold on the state tournament for several years. Often times another top team is sitting in the same section but never gets a chance to make it to state. (Btw, congrats to Barnesville for ending the long section 1AA streak.)

Another reason for the proposal to reduce the number of teams to make the playoffs is due to safety concerns. The state always talks about player safety, yet the last two games of the season for most teams are played on a Friday with the last game being the following Wednesday. Playoffs start on the Tuesday afterwards with the second round that Saturday. That is 4 games over a 16 day span. In my opinion, money lost to first round games being cut has something to do with it.

One of the committee members said that the playoffs represent a "new season" for all the teams, so every team should be included. This was backed by another member and the proposal died on the table.

Player numbers in football have been dropping. IMO, sectional tournament games where teams 1 and 8 play 2 and 7 are not helping.

Sorry for being long-winded. This is something that I could speak to having some inside insight. I am not saying that what is stated above is the way it should be, but I believe it would be better than the current situation.

Now I'll go back to only reading everyone's awesome posts. Perhaps in another 10-12 years I'll add another one!

 

[Ope3]

Another reason for the proposal to reduce the number of teams to make the playoffs is due to safety concerns. The state always talks about player safety, yet the last two games of the season for most teams are played on a Friday with the last game being the following Wednesday. Playoffs start on the Tuesday afterwards with the second round that Saturday. That is 4 games over a 16 day span. In my opinion, money lost to first round games being cut has something to do with it.

I think the entire proposal has merit. Especially because of the 4 games on 16 days thing, which I am astounded that they still do. That should have been done away a long time ago.

 

[Some guy]

I don't know if this clarifies or muddies anything, but it is information I can share with you. Two years ago a couple of coaches took a look at the previous two years of playoffs in classes 9-man through 5A. 6A was left out due to the fact that they already seed their state brackets. It was noticed that there were only two 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 upsets in sectional playoff first round games. The average win margin in 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 was closer to 40 points than 30 points, I believe. A head coach in the SE corner of the state presented a plan to the MFCA with the hopes they would bring it to the MSHSL for approval. The plan would have been to reduce the sectional playoff games to the top four teams and allow the rest of the teams to play one more game if they wish. Perhaps play another section where you can put 8 vs. 8, etc. These teams would have one more chance to win a game against a team that they would be more evenly matched up against. There have been a couple of teams that have chosen to forfeit their first round game instead of taking a whooping to end their season.

The proposal would have one round of sectional playoffs which would reduce the teams to 16 in each class. Then they would seed the remaining 16 teams using the QRF system and play at neutral sites for the rest of the tournament. Part of the rationale for this was in order to allow the best teams to have a chance to make it the farthest. An example of this would be to look at Section 1AA. Caledonia has had a stranglehold on the state tournament for several years. Often times another top team is sitting in the same section but never gets a chance to make it to state. (Btw, congrats to Barnesville for ending the long section 1AA streak.)

Another reason for the proposal to reduce the number of teams to make the playoffs is due to safety concerns. The state always talks about player safety, yet the last two games of the season for most teams are played on a Friday with the last game being the following Wednesday. Playoffs start on the Tuesday afterwards with the second round that Saturday. That is 4 games over a 16 day span. In my opinion, money lost to first round games being cut has something to do with it.

One of the committee members said that the playoffs represent a "new season" for all the teams, so every team should be included. This was backed by another member and the proposal died on the table.

Player numbers in football have been dropping. IMO, sectional tournament games where teams 1 and 8 play 2 and 7 are not helping.

Sorry for being long-winded. This is something that I could speak to having some inside insight. I am not saying that what is stated above is the way it should be, but I believe it would be better than the current situation.

Now I'll go back to only reading everyone's awesome posts. Perhaps in another 10-12 years I'll add another one!

No question this would be better. It would also give a struggling program something to sell (a playoff birth).

 

[short ornery norwegian]

My memory is a little fuzzy on this (and many things) - but several years back, I saw or read some kind of statement from a MSHSL official.

the comment was to the effect that the goal of the state playoffs was not to guarantee a matchup of the best teams - it was to guarantee a matchup based on geography and enrollment. this might have been before they started the 1 through 5 seeding in hoops. but my brother, who has been involved with some state coaches' association business, had the same idea or recollection.

the gist was that the MSHSL really didn't care if the state finals matched the best 2 teams, because that really wasn't their intent.

if accurate, that tells you a lot about where the MSHSL is coming from.

 

[Some guy]

My memory is a little fuzzy on this (and many things) - but several years back, I saw or read some kind of statement from a MSHSL official.

the comment was to the effect that the goal of the state playoffs was not to guarantee a matchup of the best teams - it was to guarantee a matchup based on geography and enrollment. this might have been before they started the 1 through 5 seeding in hoops. but my brother, who has been involved with some state coaches' association business, had the same idea or recollection.

the gist was that the MSHSL really didn't care if the state finals matched the best 2 teams, because that really wasn't their intent.

if accurate, that tells you a lot about where the MSHSL is coming from.

Covid might have been MSHSLs favorite year because they didn’t have to host all the state tournaments and most district kept fans out of games

The only thing they didn’t like about it was the lack of hockey tourney revenue

 

[GophersInIowa]

I don't know if this clarifies or muddies anything, but it is information I can share with you. Two years ago a couple of coaches took a look at the previous two years of playoffs in classes 9-man through 5A. 6A was left out due to the fact that they already seed their state brackets. It was noticed that there were only two 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 upsets in sectional playoff first round games. The average win margin in 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 was closer to 40 points than 30 points, I believe. A head coach in the SE corner of the state presented a plan to the MFCA with the hopes they would bring it to the MSHSL for approval. The plan would have been to reduce the sectional playoff games to the top four teams and allow the rest of the teams to play one more game if they wish. Perhaps play another section where you can put 8 vs. 8, etc. These teams would have one more chance to win a game against a team that they would be more evenly matched up against. There have been a couple of teams that have chosen to forfeit their first round game instead of taking a whooping to end their season.

The proposal would have one round of sectional playoffs which would reduce the teams to 16 in each class. Then they would seed the remaining 16 teams using the QRF system and play at neutral sites for the rest of the tournament. Part of the rationale for this was in order to allow the best teams to have a chance to make it the farthest. An example of this would be to look at Section 1AA. Caledonia has had a stranglehold on the state tournament for several years. Often times another top team is sitting in the same section but never gets a chance to make it to state. (Btw, congrats to Barnesville for ending the long section 1AA streak.)

Another reason for the proposal to reduce the number of teams to make the playoffs is due to safety concerns. The state always talks about player safety, yet the last two games of the season for most teams are played on a Friday with the last game being the following Wednesday. Playoffs start on the Tuesday afterwards with the second round that Saturday. That is 4 games over a 16 day span. In my opinion, money lost to first round games being cut has something to do with it.

One of the committee members said that the playoffs represent a "new season" for all the teams, so every team should be included. This was backed by another member and the proposal died on the table.

Player numbers in football have been dropping. IMO, sectional tournament games where teams 1 and 8 play 2 and 7 are not helping.

Sorry for being long-winded. This is something that I could speak to having some inside insight. I am not saying that what is stated above is the way it should be, but I believe it would be better than the current situation.

Now I'll go back to only reading everyone's awesome posts. Perhaps in another 10-12 years I'll add another one!

This makes a lot of sense. The thing would have to change if you did this is teams would have to make sure teams are playing a bulk of the other teams in their section. Right now not everyone does that.

BOLD in 5A, for instance, didn't play a single 5A team during the regular season. But they still got a #1 seed in 5A come playoff time. The #4 seed in that section, Minneota, ended up winning the state championship.

In 4A, Parkers Prairie got the #4 seed too without playing a 4A team. They ended up getting beat by 3 scores by the #5 team that wouldn't have made the playoffs in this scenario. It's hard to determine the top 4 teams in a section if they don't play each other.

 

[Gophers_4life]

MSHSL really didn't care if the state finals matched the best 2 teams, because that really wasn't their intent.

This "kumbaya" crap is trash.

Whoever got ahold of and installed this into the MSHSL ethos, shame on them.

 

[Some guy]

This makes a lot of sense. The thing would have to change if you did this is teams would have to make sure teams are playing a bulk of the other teams in their section. Right now not everyone does that.

BOLD in 5A, for instance, didn't play a single 5A team during the regular season. But they still got a #1 seed in 5A come playoff time. The #4 seed in that section, Minneota, ended up winning the state championship.

In 4A, Parkers Prairie got the #4 seed too without playing a 4A team. They ended up getting beat by 3 scores by the #5 team that wouldn't have made the playoffs in this scenario. It's hard to determine the top 4 teams in a section if they don't play each other.

At least at the 6a level. This is slowly going to be fixed.

They used to classify teams, schedule districts, then schedule teams, then pick sections.

The order is now:
Classification
Sectioning
Districting/scheduling

It is why nobody has their 2023 schedule yet. They’re trying to fix it. I’m 95% sure it’ll be fixed at the 6a level this year. Less certain about the other levels.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

At least at the 6a level. This is slowly going to be fixed.

They used to classify teams, schedule districts, then schedule teams, then pick sections.

The order is now:
Classification
Sectioning
Districting/scheduling

It is why nobody has their 2023 schedule yet. They’re trying to fix it. I’m 95% sure it’ll be fixed at the 6a level this year. Less certain about the other levels.

that is one positive thing they've done is to adjust the scheduling process. when they started "district" football, the district assignments were not being done in the same year as the re-classification and section assignment process. now, it all takes place in a combined effort, so they have the most current information on enrollment, pairing agreements, teams opting up and so forth - so the classification, section assignments and district assignments are all on the same 2-year schedule.

(what, the MSHSL did something that makes sense? I bet the person responsible for that is on the hot seat....)

 

[Some guy]

that is one positive thing they've done is to adjust the scheduling process. when they started "district" football, the district assignments were not being done in the same year as the re-classification and section assignment process. now, it all takes place in a combined effort, so they have the most current information on enrollment, pairing agreements, teams opting up and so forth - so the classification, section assignments and district assignments are all on the same 2-year schedule.

(what, the MSHSL did something that makes sense? I bet the person responsible for that is on the hot seat....)

I get what you’re saying in your last paragraph but I’m not going to give them too much credit for doing something obvious about 10 years after it was obvious