Monson vs. Tubby (record comparison)

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WilliamsArenaGuy said:
Injuries and transfers are issues all programs deal with. Some people here think it is only a problem the poor Gophers face. Some deal with it very well; we haven't. We use it as a crutch for our "Hall of Fame" coach.

Get real.

Comparing what Monson had to deal with to Tubby is absurd.

And finally, for those who think we can't possibly land a decent coach, our resident history expert here Dpo would even have to agree that is false. When we faced awful sanctions, we landed the hot up and comer coming off an Elite 8 appearance. Then we got Tubby frickin' Smith to leave Kentucky.

Who knows who we'd get? But don't tell me it's impossible to get someone good.
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The injury and transfer (could be the coach's fault) excuses are insane, we are talking nearly six full seasons of full on mediocrity. Teams suffer injuries and transfers, it's up to the coach to insure adequate depth.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
Injuries and transfers are issues all programs deal with. Some people here think it is only a problem the poor Gophers face. Some deal with it very well; we haven't. We use it as a crutch for our "Hall of Fame" coach.

Get real.

Comparing what Monson had to deal with to Tubby is absurd.

And finally, for those who think we can't possibly land a decent coach, our resident history expert here Dpo would even have to agree that is false. When we faced awful sanctions, we landed the hot up and comer coming off an Elite 8 appearance. Then we got Tubby frickin' Smith to leave Kentucky.

Who knows who we'd get? But don't tell me it's impossible to get someone good.
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That's not it, I just don't think there is any other program in the Big Ten that has suffered the amount of injuries and transfers that we have over the past 3 seasons, which puts us at a disadvantage. Sure they happen to everyone, but not in equal quantities. The 2009-10 Ohio State team only lost 7 games during the regular season, 3 of them came when Evan Turner was injured. Purdue that same year really only got one decent win after they lost Hummel, and that team was absolutely stacked. If you gave our quantity and quality of injuries, transfers, and suspensions to any other Big Ten team, they would have been significantly worse as well.
 

goldengophers said:
The injury and transfer (could be the coach's fault) excuses are insane, we are talking nearly six full seasons of full on mediocrity. Teams suffer injuries and transfers, it's up to the coach to insure adequate depth.
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Adequate depth like when we lose our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd options at point guard in under a year? We're supposed to be prepared for that by having 4 or 5 point guards on the roster? We're supposed to have Trevor Mbakwe II on the bench in case Trevor Mbakwe I goes down? Yeah, nearly six full seasons of mediocrity and more than half of it was spent without a full roster. We're supposed to have a backup 5-star recruit in case our first one decides to be stupid?
 

Cayman said:
Adequate depth like when we lose our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd options at point guard in under a year? We're supposed to be prepared for that by having 4 or 5 point guards on the roster? We're supposed to have Trevor Mbakwe II on the bench in case Trevor Mbakwe I goes down? Yeah, nearly six full seasons of mediocrity and more than half of it was spent without a full roster. We're supposed to have a backup 5-star recruit in case our first one decides to be stupid?
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We lost 4-5 pgs to injury? Transfers are on the coach and his responsibility. Iverson would've been around to fill in Mbakwe's absence but his depth was lost to transfer between his junior and senior season. You're making excuses for items in the job description.
 

station19 --

I stated in the post that I didn't have a problem with everyone critical of Tubby. Only the extreme Tubby HATERS.

So you may find my comments to be condescending, but honestly, if you are not in the wrong, then you shouldn't be offended. If you and your posts have not been examples that I am criticizing, then you should take no offense. Several posters here have been critical of Tubby, and done so without having to exaggerate or make ridiculous comments or accusations. I don't keep track or have a scorecard. Maybe I am lazy and should, but honestly, I don't pay attention to who posts what. I think that the internet is a very impersonal thing, and since I can't see people's faces or see their facial expressions or hear their tone of voice, I try not to imagine. I read people's posts and respond to the words in the post. I honestly couldn't remember one single poster's name who has particularly bugged me, or one single poster who has impressed me. I might remember as I'm scrolling through and see their monikers, but its rare. So that means that you have not made a positive or negative impression on me, so far, or at least not so much that I've made an effort to remember who you are.

So I couldn't tell you whether or not you are one of the posters I was referring to. Between you and me, only you know whether you are guilty or not of doing what I accused the Uber Tubby Haters of doing.

And don't forget that I admitted to being similarly one sided in my comments and analysis. So if I was condescending towards Tubby Haters, well, I was to a degree, being condescending towards myself as well. Granted I think the Tubby HATERS have been the bigger offenders, than I or any of the other Tubby backers, but that doesn't change the fact that both sides should make an effort to change.


Heck, maybe you are one of the reasonable Tubby critics that makes me and SOME of the other Tubby backers look bad?! There are a few out there.


So maybe the "grow a brain" comment was a little uncalled for, but like I said, the Tubby HATERS were the ones who drew first blood, and are the ones who falsely accuse Tubby backers of ridiculous things. It's wrong, and its inaccurate, and it doesn't help the situation out to make such accusations against people.

NO ONE here, that is a Gopher fan, wants anything other than what they think is whats best for the program as a whole. Some care more about short term things than long term, and if I was 80 years old, I might not care about long term sh1t either. Some may be young and impatient, but is that really a crime?! No. Some thing any short term good will turn into long term good, others may feel its not right to do whatever is needed to be done, the win at all costs kind of mentality. Some may desire to do the honorable thing, whether it helps the program or not? Does that mean that they don't love the program?! Some people have religious beliefs and may feel its not nice to fire a decent coach, others may feel that its the nature of the job and there is nothing immoral or unethical with firing someone who is getting paid a TON of money to do a job that they feel he's NOT doing.

I don't think its right to judge Gopher fans and falsely accuse them of ridiculous things like claiming that they want us to be mediocre. They simply don't agree with Tubby HATERS ideas on what would make us more successful. We ALL, Tubby Haters and Tubby Lovers, and more middle of the roaders ALL want whats best for the Gophers, but just disagree on what that is.
 


Cayman said:
The team has only had three healthy seasons with Tubby. The first one Tubby got a 7 win team up to 20 wins. The year after that we made the tournament. I would not call either of those seasons disappointing or underachieving. This one could be if things don't get turned around soon.

Big wins:

2007-08
Indiana (Hoff's game-winner)

2008-09
Louisville
@Wisconsin
Wisconsin

2009-10
Butler
Ohio State
@Illinois (not sure if this one was a big deal, but it was on the road against a team that I think we've typically had trouble against)
Wisconsin
Michigan State
Purdue

2010-11
North Carolina
West Virginia
Purdue

2011-12
@Indiana (Indiana's only home loss last year, beat #1 Kentucky and #2 Ohio State there)

Looking back, the 2009-10 team could have probably challenged for or won the Big Ten title if everyone would have been healthy and eligible, it would have been better than this year's team.
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Gotta admit, you got me. Three true road games in over 5 years. THAT'S a résumé, to be sure.

I was a self-proclaimed Tubby apologist until this season, I'll admit. Defections and injuries had an impact, a big one. The talent on this roster should be light years better than what they've shown. There are disturbing trends.
 

You know, I spend a lot more time at forums where I am the only Gopher fan, and OMG, a team loses ONE PLAYER to injury, and its an absolute guarantee that the team's fans bring it up as an excuse.

Duke, the OVERWHELMING #1 team in the nation, loses ONE player to injury this year, and has since lost embarrassingly to Miami, and they lost to NCSU who isn't even ranked anymore. They almost lost to friggin BC.

And Duke fans, and NON-Duke fans, all point to the injury to Kelly transforming the ALMIGHTY DUKE, into a far inferior team than they were with him.

Duke!!!!


Missouri fans are point to injuries to explain how their team is rated very low in the computer polls and is only getting votes in the AP and Coaches Polls, despite their claims that they are far more talented than Kansas.


I remember a #1 ranked Cincinnati team going out in the 1st or 2nd round of the NCAA tournament the year Kenyon Martin got injured near the end of the season.

Do you think that fans all claimed Cincy sucked?! Cincy fans pointed to the injury, and for the most part, non-Cincy fans agreed.


And those are 3 examples just off the top of my head.


I got one more, a Gopher example. When Sam Jacobson was injured, but came back half way through the season, the difference with him compared to without him, was NIGHT AND DAY!!!!!! We were like 2-8 without him, and 6-2 with him?! Don't quote me on those numbers, just the very strong impression that was left on my mind. But he was out just long enough that the damage was done and we didn't get into the Big Dance.


But I could literally go on for YEARS listing all of the examples of teams losing only ONE player and it negatively affecting the team so much so that their teams just weren't the same without them. And I know the likes of UConn, UNC, Kentucky, Duke, Arizona, all the best and DEEPEST teams in the country would get mentions.
 

We haven't won a first round tourney game and you're banging on about an injury to Duke? Duke won a National Title in 2010, we haven't won an NCAA tournament game in the 5 years of this regime. Mediocrity, especially from Tubby Smith, is unacceptable.
 

goldengophers said:
We lost 4-5 pgs to injury? Transfers are on the coach and his responsibility. Iverson would've been around to fill in Mbakwe's absence but his depth was lost to transfer between his junior and senior season. You're making excuses for items in the job description.
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In the 2009-2010 season we had Al Nolen, Devoe Joeseph, Justin Cobbs and Bryant Allen, by the midway point of the big ten season the next year all for of those point guards were no longer on the roster so yes we did lose four point guards
 



bemidjigopher said:
In the 2009-2010 season we had Al Nolen, Devoe Joeseph, Justin Cobbs and Bryant Allen, by the midway point of the big ten season the next year all for of those point guards were no longer on the roster so yes we did lose four point guards
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To injury? Did you read my post?
 

Station19 --

No need to be offended by my condescending remarks, unless you are one of the guilty parties I was referring to. Are you?! I don't remember honestly. I don't have a scorecard to keep track, and I don't waste space in my brain making sure to remember who is who here. Maybe the turn on your brains comment was inappropriate. I didn't mean it so much as an insult, as I did a challenge.

I've read some well written criticisms in here of Tubby and his coaching abilities, and I just think that a more sensible discussion of the issue would be more helpful and useful and would scare less people away.
 

goldengophers --

Since when does Minnesota deserve to be held to the same standards as Duke?!

What have they EVER done to deserve to be held to such high standards?!


My point is, even Duke, after losing only ONE player, and THIS YEAR, not the year they won a Natl Title, but THIS YEAR, the year they were an overwhelming #1 ranked team, when they lost Kelly and all of a sudden turned into a 2nd rate ACC team.


I want you to, I CHALLENGE you to find me some teams, not among the Top 10 all-time, who lost one of their starting 5, and then continued to kick tail. And not just ONE example, one FLUKE, but a bunch of teams, so that I can know how normally it happens, and how strange it is that Minnesota is the only team that injuries affect.

And find me just ONE team with 2 injuries to one of the starting 5. That went on to have a successful season. And again, not one of the all-time top 10 programs, we are obviously not even close to being top 10 all time, and might not rank among the Top 100? So don't compare us with teams of that caliber.
 

A very good team could go .500 in the B10 this year, and I would not consider the results to be mediocre. If the #1 and #2 team play ten games against each other, their combined record will be .500. The B10 is loaded with very good, great, and elite teams. Hopefully, we can show we are a 'great' team the rest of the way.
 



#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
You know, I spend a lot more time at forums where I am the only Gopher fan, and OMG, a team loses ONE PLAYER to injury, and its an absolute guarantee that the team's fans bring it up as an excuse.

Duke, the OVERWHELMING #1 team in the nation, loses ONE player to injury this year, and has since lost embarrassingly to Miami, and they lost to NCSU who isn't even ranked anymore. They almost lost to friggin BC.

And Duke fans, and NON-Duke fans, all point to the injury to Kelly transforming the ALMIGHTY DUKE, into a far inferior team than they were with him.

Duke!!!!


Missouri fans are point to injuries to explain how their team is rated very low in the computer polls and is only getting votes in the AP and Coaches Polls, despite their claims that they are far more talented than Kansas.


I remember a #1 ranked Cincinnati team going out in the 1st or 2nd round of the NCAA tournament the year Kenyon Martin got injured near the end of the season.

Do you think that fans all claimed Cincy sucked?! Cincy fans pointed to the injury, and for the most part, non-Cincy fans agreed.


And those are 3 examples just off the top of my head.


I got one more, a Gopher example. When Sam Jacobson was injured, but came back half way through the season, the difference with him compared to without him, was NIGHT AND DAY!!!!!! We were like 2-8 without him, and 6-2 with him?! Don't quote me on those numbers, just the very strong impression that was left on my mind. But he was out just long enough that the damage was done and we didn't get into the Big Dance.


But I could literally go on for YEARS listing all of the examples of teams losing only ONE player and it negatively affecting the team so much so that their teams just weren't the same without them. And I know the likes of UConn, UNC, Kentucky, Duke, Arizona, all the best and DEEPEST teams in the country would get mentions.
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We know.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Station19 --

No need to be offended by my condescending remarks, unless you are one of the guilty parties I was referring to. Are you?! I don't remember honestly. I don't have a scorecard to keep track, and I don't waste space in my brain making sure to remember who is who here. Maybe the turn on your brains comment was inappropriate. I didn't mean it so much as an insult, as I did a challenge.

I've read some well written criticisms in here of Tubby and his coaching abilities, and I just think that a more sensible discussion of the issue would be more helpful and useful and would scare less people away.
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Are only the guilty parties allowed to comment/criticize?

Your posts are incredibly long(some might say rambling), and now you are telling people how to structure their posts. Sounds a little high and mighty, don't you think?
 

bemidjigopher said:
In the 2009-2010 season we had Al Nolen, Devoe Joeseph, Justin Cobbs and Bryant Allen, by the midway point of the big ten season the next year all for of those point guards were no longer on the roster so yes we did lose four point guards
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The ones lost to transfer are part of player management. We had an injury to Nolen, tough gazungas. If the coach is going to run all of his players off the team, he can't complain when he turns around and realizes there is no one left.
 

Cayman said:
Looking back, the 2009-10 team could have probably challenged for or won the Big Ten title if everyone would have been healthy and eligible, it would have been better than this year's team.
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No, no, no. If we have learned anything the last week here on GH it is that the Gophers can't compete in the conference. There is no use even worrying about it.
 

Here is the deal. Pro Tubby guys blame injuries and transfers on bad luck, players who quit. Fire Tubby guys say all teams have injuries and its their job to find depth...look at Wisconsin's pg situation this year are they making excuses or is the guy nest up performing? Fire Tubby guys also say when you have 4 transfers leave a program over a couple years and many of them are all conference players you have to wonder what is making them so unhappy to leave. One transfer maybe you don't think that, just bad luck, but 4...4...4!
 


goldengophers said:
We lost 4-5 pgs to injury? Transfers are on the coach and his responsibility. Iverson would've been around to fill in Mbakwe's absence but his depth was lost to transfer between his junior and senior season. You're making excuses for items in the job description.
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Not sure what a coach is supposed to do if guys aren't happy here, not sign their release? It had seemed Justin Cobbs was just homesick, he's from California and he goes to Cal now, so that kinda makes sense. Colt might have just pictured himself not seeing the floor much as a senior, stuck behind Ralph and Trevor, our other senior big men, and he might have been right if Trevor hadn't gotten injured.

goldengophers said:
We haven't won a first round tourney game and you're banging on about an injury to Duke? Duke won a National Title in 2010, we haven't won an NCAA tournament game in the 5 years of this regime. Mediocrity, especially from Tubby Smith, is unacceptable.
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He was giving Duke as one of a series of examples of a good team losing a player and being significantly worse afterward, much like the last two seasons here.

march madness said:
Here is the deal. Pro Tubby guys blame injuries and transfers on bad luck, players who quit. Fire Tubby guys say all teams have injuries and its their job to find depth...look at Wisconsin's pg situation this year are they making excuses or is the guy nest up performing? Fire Tubby guys also say when you have 4 transfers leave a program over a couple years and many of them are all conference players you have to wonder what is making them so unhappy to leave. One transfer maybe you don't think that, just bad luck, but 4...4...4!
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The difference being that they lost Gasser before the season started and were able to play some easy non-conference games without him to get used to his absence, and still lost some of them, like the game against Virginia at Kohl Center, unlike when we lost Nolen about 6 games into the Big Ten season. Wisconsin also still has the two guys behind Gasser still on the team and healthy, which we did not. If Marshall had transferred last April, and Jackson transferred last month (and only played in about half of the games up to that point), where does that put Wisconsin?
 

Cayman said:
I'm still not really sure why Monson's poor performances are excused because of sanctions, but injuries/transfers/suspensions don't count for Tubby. They both equal personnel losses don't they? Not to mention that in one of Tubby's best seasons here, 2009-10, in which we finished 12-10 in conference counting BTT games, Royce White and Trevor Mbakwe, maybe our two best players, were sidelined for the entire season, and Al Nolen missed most of Big Ten play due to academic ineligibility.
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This may have been answered, I have read through the thread but I might have missed it.

They are completely different situations. Monson walked into sanctions. The issues that Tubby has had with suspensions and transfers (i'll excuse injury) are part of his program. He recruited these athletes, the buck stops with him when it comes to them getting into trouble and them going elsewhere. He's the recruiter (brought the kids in), he's their coach when they are here. If you are getting a lot of transfers and suspensions, that's on you.

FWIW. . .Monson also lost 3 of his best players early (Pryz, Rickert, Humphries), but he knew that when he recruited Rickert and Humphries and Pryz leaving is ultimately on him (just like Devoe, Cobbs, White leaving is on Tubby).
 

Cayman said:
The difference being that they lost Gasser before the season started and were able to play some easy non-conference games without him to get used to his absence, and still lost some of them, like the game against Virginia at Kohl Center, unlike when we lost Nolen about 6 games into the Big Ten season. Wisconsin also still has the two guys behind Gasser still on the team and healthy, which we did not. If Marshall had transferred last April, and Jackson transferred last month (and only played in about half of the games up to that point), where does that put Wisconsin?
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When you're a coach, one of your responsibilities is to bring in talent, which often means depth.

Coaches are responsible for their lack of depth, the only excuse that's acceptable is a ton of injuries (but your backups can't be completely inept).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
This may have been answered, I have read through the thread but I might have missed it.

They are completely different situations. Monson walked into sanctions. The issues that Tubby has had with suspensions and transfers (i'll excuse injury) are part of his program. He recruited these athletes, the buck stops with him when it comes to them getting into trouble and them going elsewhere. He's the recruiter (brought the kids in), he's their coach when they are here. If you are getting a lot of transfers and suspensions, that's on you.

FWIW. . .Monson also lost 3 of his best players early (Pryz, Rickert, Humphries), but he knew that when he recruited Rickert and Humphries and Pryz leaving is ultimately on him (just like Devoe, Cobbs, White leaving is on Tubby).
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Good point on Monson losing players. Rickert was a great 4 year college player. Unfortunately, he only played 2.

Monson also had disastrous in season injuries as well to Bauer and. Bickerstaff. So there you have it. He did face the issues Tubby has faced in addition to the sanctions. Again, injuries and transfers, whether you blame the coach or not, are part of the deal everywhere.

If those guys stayed healthy and Rickert stuck around, Monson actually had a chance. He was building something at first; the problem was that he could not sustain it and the ending was ugly.
 

station --

High and mighty!?! Seemed to me that I was just letting you and others know how it is. The more negative people are towards Tubby, the more they are going to fire up those who disagree. Cause and effect.

Nothing high and mighty about the truth.

You going to deny the truth of cause and effect?!



As for coming across as high and mighty?! Well, to be BLUNT, some posters are just naturally going to be smarter or more sensible than other posters, just as some coaches are better coaches than others, and some basketball players are better than others. Some GH posters are just smarter than others, and some are more sensible.

As for being smarter? I'm not making that claim, but as for being more sensible?! Yeah, I am more sensible than some of the posters here. I don't believe in being politically correct, I DO believe in speaking the truth and defending the truth.


When someone asked me if I wrote professionally, I didn't let it go to my head and start thinking that I'm a great writer. I'm not. My first thought upon reading that was that they were being sarcastic or trying to insult me, but then upon further reflection, I don't think they were giving their opinion, but were simply curious. I'm a thinker, and I have some good thoughts at times, but I'm FAR too long winded, I know that, you've stated as much, others have agreed with you, so many of my good thoughts get buried in my long winded posts. I get emotional just as so many others here, but maybe its because of my age or experience or like I said, that I'm more sensible than other people, but I hold off and show restraint. About the only thing I vent about here, is how other people vent too much, lol.

Is it their right to vent? Sure. Does it harm people if they vent here?! no, not really.


But does it lead to constructive discussion?! Rarely.

It fires people up. It leads to arguments that get pretty out of hand sometimes.


I'm not trying to be the boss here, not trying to tell people how to post, I'm simply trying to point out to those who VENT and VENT and VENT and then wonder why so-called Tubby Lovers can't see what they see?


They MIGHT see what they see if they toned down their negativity.


Cause and effect.


YELL FIRE in a crowded theatre and you get chaos, AND arrested if caught.

Cause and affect.

SCREAM OUT HOW MUCH TUBBY SUCKS and people will jump to defend him and call you a Tubby HATER.

Cause and effect.



If you want people to read your criticisms of Tubby, then dress up your criticisms in language that will get them wanting to read what you have to say.


Simple logic. 1 + 1 = 2.



MANY posters here know all of this, and get their posts read, including by me, I remember reading those posts and did not feel compelled to argue with them because they didn't get me fired up.



And if you still think I'm talking all high and mighty?! Sh1t, all that I've said can be learned by taking a simple Speech class. I'm no genius for stated these things. Smarter maybe than the idiots who piss everyone off and fire people up AND THEN wonder why people don't respond more positively to their idiotic posts? But that is only if they don't realize what they are doing. Some people post that way purposely and are well aware of how people will react, and do it on purpose because they think its fun. So if that is their goal, I can't call the stupid when they are accomplishing their goal.
Btw, I got negative marks in every speech I ever gave in speech class in college for being too long winded, lol. Go figure, eh?!
 

As for injuries happening to every team?!


Yeah, on occasion, maybe?! But Minnesota has been especially bitten by the injury bug. And not just Tubby, Monson's teams were injury plaqued as well. 2 and sometimes 3 injuries in the same season.


And I'm still waiting for this list of successful teams that suffered injuries to starters or MORE than 1 player in the same season and who did not suffer.


Duke this season doesn't qualify for they've suffered since losing Kelly. Either does Missouri because they've struggled a lot this season because of injuries. Remember people mentioning how SDSU was missing a player when we played them, but not when they beat New Mexico?! Why should that matter if injuries don't matter?!

People are now writing Kentucky off for the rest of the season because of losing a FRESHMAN.






And not sure the NCAA sanctions hurt Monson's recruiting efforts as much as people think?! Sure, teams with 13 solid players are going to be better than teams with only 10 or 8, on average. But lots of really good teams have survived with only 6-8 really good players. So only being able to have 11 or 12 players on scholarship doesn't have to hurt a coach that much, especially if he gets a decent walkon or two to contribute. I believe I remember Monson having 1 or 2 walkons that made some decent contributions to the depth of his teams.
 

<img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--ekR6jG4Iwk/Tw4zvKN4RCI/AAAAAAAAAn0/IX-VBCUOUvs/s1600/didnt-read-lol-chicken-gif.gif" border="0">
 

tl_dr_sticker-p217171272310410653envb3_400.jpg
 


Sagarin Ratings of our opponents

#1 Indiana
#4 Michigan
#5 Duke
#7 Mich St x 2
#13 Wisconsin x 2
#27 Memphis
#36 Illinois x 2
#39 Iowa
#47 Stanford
#76 Nrthwstrn x 2
#86 Flor St
#89 Southern Cal
#97 Richmond
#99 S Dak St
#108 N Dak St

That's FIVE games vs Top 7 ranked teams and SEVEN games vs Top 13 ranked teams.

11 games vs Top 40 ranked teams, soon to be 12.

And OSU is ranked #12.
 

Winnipegopher said:
Certain things are assumed as true on the Gopherhole.

One of these "truths" is that the Monson program was a disaster. Yet if you compare them six years in, Tubby hasn't really seperated himself from Monson- and Monson had the sanctions to deal with and started with two dismal seasons.

In his first six years, Monson was over 500 in conference play twice (10-6 in 2004-05 and 9-7 in 2001-02) and 500 once (8-8 in 2002-03). In Tubby's first six years (unless things change this year and hopefully they will), his best is 500 twice (9-9 in 2008-08 and 2009-10). Even if gets to 10-8 this year his best three years will be worse than Monson's best three.

Monson went to the NCAA once and lost. Tubby has been twice and lost.

It is an interesting comparison as I remember Monson being much less successful, likely due to the dumpster dive seasons of 2003-2004 and 2005-06 (and the awful start to 2006-07).
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You could also throw Clem into this conversation as well. Clem's inability to win on the road, his losing B1G record, his lack of player development & continual underachievement all seem to be forgotten (especially by younger fans) these days. Much like Tubby he was a winner at one time, then lost his desire & the program went downhill, getting so bad he had to resort to all out cheating to succeed by the end.
 

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