MN Daily Op-Ed: Norwood Teague and Title IX

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station19 said:
The smaller ball for women is one of the best sports decisions of all time.
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Women's golf should double the size of the cup, and then women should brag about how much better they are at putting.
 

Section2 said:
Women's golf should double the size of the cup, and then women should brag about how much better they are at putting.
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That would be called a nonsensical statement.

Why do you think they use a smaller ball in the women's game?
 

I guess Norwood could say we just can not afford to add anymore sports, men's or women's if that would make her happier. But the fact is that if the department could afford to add another sport, it would have to be a women's team. because it they add a men's team they still have to add the women's team.
Additionally, if she really just wanted to deal with the issue, she could have called him to discuss it rather than trying to make a political point of it.
 

Section2 said:
Women's golf should double the size of the cup, and then women should brag about how much better they are at putting.
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You need to be careful with your choice of words here. I suspect when Dr.Don saw a comment about doubling the cup size for women he immediately opened a beer and started to celebrate.;)
 


Section2 said:
Women's golf should double the size of the cup, and then women should brag about how much better they are at putting.
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Did it piss you off when the British golf ball was smaller than the American ball?
 

station19 said:
That would be called a nonsensical statement.

Why do you think they use a smaller ball in the women's game?
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I don't know the rationale and its not nonsensical. Wnba players use a smaller ball than 3rd grade boys. Defend.
 

I will stipulate that men on average are bigger, stronger and faster than women.

If you love to watch big guys dunk, more power to you. but, if you enjoy teamwork, passing, defense and intelligent play - factors that often seem to be vanishing from the men's game, try watching women's basketball. The Gopher women's teams with Wahlen and Mc Carville played some of the most fun games I've ever seen.

Back to the original point of the thread: Like it or not, Title IX does impact decisions on adding or retaining sports. Just ask some Wrestling coaches - you'll get an earful.

I think most D1 AD's are in a no-win position. If they cut a men's sport, they get ripped, and if they add a women's non-revenue sport, they get ripped. (remember all the snark that followed the Gophs adding the Crew program?) (I am not against rowing as a sport - my niece was on the rowing team at Harvard....)
 

Section2 said:
Women's golf should double the size of the cup, and then women should brag about how much better they are at putting.
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Yes it is nonsensical. Some woman must have beat you at golf because it sure seems to bother you. Maybe you just aren't very good at putting.



Section2 said:
I don't know the rationale and its not nonsensical. Wnba players use a smaller ball than 3rd grade boys. Defend.
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The reason was because women have smaller hands. The smaller ball makes it easier for them to handle the ball and to make shots. Leads to more enjoyable game to play and watch. It's called win/win.

WNBA players use a smaller ball because they play a women's game.

3rd grade boys play larger ball because they play in the men's game. Pretty basic stuff here.

Now I will admit I'm not sure what size ball the 3rd grade boys were playing with. May be different from state to state for all I know.

Some might say let the younger boys play with the smaller ball until they grow older. The other line of thinking would be get used to it. No sense starting 3rd-6th graders playing with an 8 foot basket either. Get used to what you will be playing as you get older.

Why does it make any difference if WNBA players have a smaller ball than 3rd grade boys? Jealousy? One has no bearing on the other.

Are you so wrapped up in this thought that everything must the same and equal that you have lost all sense of logic and reason?

Does it piss you off that women tee off at a shorter distance than men in golf? BTW you can't call them women's tees anymore - they are forward tees. Do Seniors and gold tees piss you off too?

Why in the world would you effing care if the women's ball was smaller? Do you want to make sure all stats show women are inferior to men? You have serious issues deuce. Get out from under that rock you are living under.

I hope you are not teaching 3rd graders some of these values(or lack of).
 



Section2 said:
I don't know the rationale and its not nonsensical. Wnba players use a smaller ball than 3rd grade boys. Defend.
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If you have ever coached youth basketball you would know that the kids use a smaller ball...even SHOCK...the boys. The reason is because they aren't strong enough to shoot with proper form and if they play with the larger ones they develop bad form.

The reason that women play with the smaller basketballs is because they aren't as strong as men. It is the same reason that women's golf tees are closer to the the green. Most sports (and most everything) were designed for men...so changes are made to compensate. In golf for example, you should be rewarded for a long straight drive. As women aren't able to drive over a water hazard 200 yards away, they are given a different tee, which would permit a solid 180 yard drive to carry the hazard. In basketball it is the same...an easy way to compensate for women not being as physically strong as men.

I can't believe someone can't even figure that out. At any rate..in good leagues...3rd grade boys are playing with smaller basketballs than those in the WNBA....otherwise they are probably developing bad form.
 

BTW, in dance women do everything men do...only they do it backwards in high heels...
 

CoMn said:
If you have ever coached youth basketball you would know that the kids use a smaller ball...even SHOCK...the boys. The reason is because they aren't strong enough to shoot with proper form and if they play with the larger ones they develop bad form.

The reason that women play with the smaller basketballs is because they aren't as strong as men. It is the same reason that women's golf tees are closer to the the green. Most sports (and most everything) were designed for men...so changes are made to compensate. In golf for example, you should be rewarded for a long straight drive. As women aren't able to drive over a water hazard 200 yards away, they are given a different tee, which would permit a solid 180 yard drive to carry the hazard. In basketball it is the same...an easy way to compensate for women not being as physically strong as men.

I can't believe someone can't even figure that out. At any rate..in good leagues...3rd grade boys are playing with smaller basketballs than those in the WNBA....otherwise they are probably developing bad form.
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Kind of true but not totally. For many years men fought the idea of women having their own shorter tee boxes. They also cost money to build.

Once people in the industry informed male members, and more importantly boards of directors, that it would speed up play did the real push begin. If it benefited them they were all for it. There was an old-timer at our club that always said; "there are two things that don't belong on a golf course - pine trees and women." There aren't many of those types around these days.....Deuce maybe.
 

Ok, 3rd grade might have been an exaggeration. Certainly 7th grade. Wnba players are over 6 ft. I wasn't 5 feet as a 7th grader. Why did I use a normal ball? It was certainly heavy and I had a hard time shooting a 3. My hands were smaller than Lisa Leslie's hands. The game is better with a smaller ball? Win win? Why not have the men use that ball? Wouldn't that be win win? Your logic is incredibly flawed.
Women are equal or they aren't. That's my general point. I think the pro title IX crowd claim they are or they aren't whenever it's convenient. That's my issue.
 



OMG Section 2 no one on this thread is saying men and women are equal physically. No one. Men are stronger. 7th grade boys can do more pull ups that super jock women. Should 7th graders be using the same basket height as the NBA? No...that's why when kids are little they use 8 ft. hoops. Why do they stop? Not because they are developed...but because adjustable backboards are as expensive as all heck..so to save money schools and rec centers pick 10 ft. or 8 ft. The court becomes useless to many folks if you opt for 8 ft...so they pick 10 ft. Then as the youngest kids' teams clog up all the 8 ft. courts available...they bump the kids up to 10 foot hoops. So although they should be playing on shorter hoops...they don't exist in great enough numbers. And the NBA should be playing with a 12 foot hoop..or at least 11 to get the game back to how it was designed to be played. Basketballs were not designed to be palmed. The fact that the college guys can palm a basketball is an argument that their basketballs should be bigger. If kids aren't strong enough to shoot a one-handed three pointer, they should have a smaller basketball...girl or boy...or they will develop bad form. Especially because about the only thing kids will practice on their own are three pointers and some free throws so they go to the gym and shoot 200 shots with bad form because the basketball is too large.

Lisa Leslie is a bad example as she wasn't even close to an average WNBA player. I think you would find most of the players don't have huge hands...certainly not bigger than an average guys.
 

Section2 said:
Ok, 3rd grade might have been an exaggeration. Certainly 7th grade. Wnba players are over 6 ft. I wasn't 5 feet as a 7th grader. Why did I use a normal ball? It was certainly heavy and I had a hard time shooting a 3. My hands were smaller than Lisa Leslie's hands. The game is better with a smaller ball? Win win? Why not have the men use that ball? Wouldn't that be win win? Your logic is incredibly flawed.
Women are equal or they aren't. That's my general point. I think the pro title IX crowd claim they are or they aren't whenever it's convenient. That's my issue.
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My logic is not flawed. The problem is you have none.

Women are equal or they aren't. That's my general point.

So if women want to be treated with equality they must play with the same sized ball, right? All or nothing baby.

Get out from under that rock Deuce. At least get out of the cave.
 

Section2 said:
Ok, 3rd grade might have been an exaggeration. Certainly 7th grade. Wnba players are over 6 ft. I wasn't 5 feet as a 7th grader. Why did I use a normal ball? It was certainly heavy and I had a hard time shooting a 3. My hands were smaller than Lisa Leslie's hands. The game is better with a smaller ball? Win win? Why not have the men use that ball? Wouldn't that be win win? Your logic is incredibly flawed.
Women are equal or they aren't. That's my general point. I think the pro title IX crowd claim they are or they aren't whenever it's convenient. That's my issue.
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Really fascinating to know you have small hands but were forced to play with normal balls. It obviously scarred you in many ways. You might seriously think about going back to the Off-Topic Board.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Back to the original point of the thread: Like it or not, Title IX does impact decisions on adding or retaining sports. Just ask some Wrestling coaches - you'll get an earful.

I think most D1 AD's are in a no-win position. If they cut a men's sport, they get ripped, and if they add a women's non-revenue sport, they get ripped. (remember all the snark that followed the Gophs adding the Crew program?) (I am not against rowing as a sport - my niece was on the rowing team at Harvard....)
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True. I totally concede as fact that NT has no choice but to add scholarships and roster spots in pairs. Whether one likes Title IX or not is beside the point. My problem is responding, (paraphrasing) "I'd love to add those sports but my hands are tied because of Title IX" when someone says, "are you going to add men's soccer or Lacrosse?", This response implies that the women's subsidized per athlete cost that would need to be added isn't 'worth it', while the men's subsidized per athlete cost is worth it. The transitive implication of such a statement is that the already existing subsidized female athletes are less worthy than their male counterparts.
 

Mulligan said:
Really fascinating to know you have small hands but were forced to play with normal balls. It obviously scarred you in many ways. You might seriously think about going back to the Off-Topic Board.
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Weird, I know. 7th grade boys have smaller hands than 6 foot women.
 

station19 said:
My logic is not flawed. The problem is you have none.

Women are equal or they aren't. That's my general point.

So if women want to be treated with equality they must play with the same sized ball, right? All or nothing baby.

Get out from under that rock Deuce. At least get out of the cave.
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To be treated with equality, they should actually be equal.
 

CoMn said:
OMG Section 2 no one on this thread is saying men and women are equal physically. No one. Men are stronger. 7th grade boys can do more pull ups that super jock women. Should 7th graders be using the same basket height as the NBA? No...that's why when kids are little they use 8 ft. hoops. Why do they stop? Not because they are developed...but because adjustable backboards are as expensive as all heck..so to save money schools and rec centers pick 10 ft. or 8 ft. The court becomes useless to many folks if you opt for 8 ft...so they pick 10 ft. Then as the youngest kids' teams clog up all the 8 ft. courts available...they bump the kids up to 10 foot hoops. So although they should be playing on shorter hoops...they don't exist in great enough numbers. And the NBA should be playing with a 12 foot hoop..or at least 11 to get the game back to how it was designed to be played. Basketballs were not designed to be palmed. The fact that the college guys can palm a basketball is an argument that their basketballs should be bigger. If kids aren't strong enough to shoot a one-handed three pointer, they should have a smaller basketball...girl or boy...or they will develop bad form. Especially because about the only thing kids will practice on their own are three pointers and some free throws so they go to the gym and shoot 200 shots with bad form because the basketball is too large.

Lisa Leslie is a bad example as she wasn't even close to an average WNBA player. I think you would find most of the players don't have huge hands...certainly not bigger than an average guys.
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Women can make baskets with a normal basketball. Period. The basket height and ball size are the same for both teams. Are people seriously arguing that women need a smaller ball? How silly! So every nba player started with a smaller ball? Do you think Larry bird or Michael jordan used a small ball and that's why they developed good form?
Lol that people are arguing with me, PC is really a serious disease.
 

badgergopher said:
True. I totally concede as fact that NT has no choice but to add scholarships and roster spots in pairs. Whether one likes Title IX or not is beside the point. My problem is responding, (paraphrasing) "I'd love to add those sports but my hands are tied because of Title IX" when someone says, "are you going to add men's soccer or Lacrosse?", This response implies that the women's subsidized per athlete cost that would need to be added isn't 'worth it', while the men's subsidized per athlete cost is worth it. The transitive implication of such a statement is that the already existing subsidized female athletes are less worthy than their male counterparts.
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of course that's the implication. All sports are not equally valuable, lets field the most valuable ones regardless of gender as that is the only way to truly comply with title IX
 

Section2 said:
Women can make baskets with a normal basketball. Period. The basket height and ball size are the same for both teams. Are people seriously arguing that women need a smaller ball? How silly! So every nba player started with a smaller ball? Do you think Larry bird or Michael jordan used a small ball and that's why they developed good form?
Lol that people are arguing with me, PC is really a serious disease.
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Further proof you are totally out to lunch. This whole argument you made was that women should play with the same size ball. It's called common sense. Having the women play with a ball size that is better suited for them is common sense. If the men want to change the size of their ball fine. IT IS A SEPERATE ISSUE. The size of the ball is a common sense issue not a pc issue. It only became a pc issue when you attempted to intertwine them.

Do you have any idea how childish and ignorant you sound?

So Cindy got a sucker and you didn't. Deal with it.
 

station19 said:
Further proof you are totally out to lunch. This whole argument you made was that women should play with the same size ball. It's called common sense. Having the women play with a ball size that is better suited for them is common sense. If the men want to change the size of their ball fine. IT IS A SEPERATE ISSUE. The size of the ball is a common sense issue not a pc issue. It only became a pc issue when you attempted to intertwine them.

Do you have any idea how childish and ignorant you sound?

So Cindy got a sucker and you didn't. Deal with it.
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The issue is that women want to be treated as equals, and want equal fan support. I don't care what size ball they use, I just think its a joke that they want equal treatment yet use a smaller ball. I think it's a joke that I hear people argue that the women's game is more pure, and that their form is better, and free throw percentages are cited as evidence. It's a smaller ball! My bigger cup size for golf is a perfect analogy. If they want to use a smaller ball, fine, I truly don't care, because I don't care much for most women's sports. I do care about title IX and these silly equality arguments.


Thank you for not disappointing and calling me ignorant, I was waiting for it.
 

Section2 said:
The issue is that women want to be treated as equals, and want equal fan support. I don't care what size ball they use, I just think its a joke that they want equal treatment yet use a smaller ball. I think it's a joke that I hear people argue that the women's game is more pure, and that their form is better, and free throw percentages are cited as evidence. It's a smaller ball! My bigger cup size for golf is a perfect analogy. If they want to use a smaller ball, fine, I truly don't care, because I don't care much for most women's sports. I do care about title IX and these silly equality arguments.


Thank you for not disappointing and calling me ignorant, I was waiting for it.
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Women and Men are not equal.....once again...no one is implying that. Are apples and oranges equal? Dogs and cats? That being said...women deserve to be treated equally. It is because of unequal treatment that title ix was passed in the first place. It is because so many people would like to be rid of women's sports because they can't play as well with a big basketball that title ix continues to exist. It is because of that type of attitude that the University might end up with some kind of sanctions. Title ix is not a difficult rule to follow and arguing against it's value does more to argue for its value.
 


CoMn said:
Women and Men are not equal.....once again...no one is implying that. Are apples and oranges equal? Dogs and cats? That being said...women deserve to be treated equally. It is because of unequal treatment that title ix was passed in the first place. It is because so many people would like to be rid of women's sports because they can't play as well with a big basketball that title ix continues to exist. It is because of that type of attitude that the University might end up with some kind of sanctions. Title ix is not a difficult rule to follow and arguing against it's value does more to argue for its value.
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Women do not have an equal INTEREST in sports compared to men. Not even close. So why must two unequal parties, with unequal and distinct interests, be treated equally?
Arguing against its value argues for its value? Lol! So there is no argument against. You said so.

I don't argue that we should abolish women's basketball. I'm arguing why I think most people don't take it seriously.
Overall, my main argument is that the federal government should have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The U is a thoroughly progressive institution. It is more than capable of following misguided paths all on its own without Uncle Sam weighing in.

Women and men are not equal, but deserve to be treated equal. Explain why.
 

Maximus said:
Like the law says?



No, they want more fan support. Just like the football team wants more fan support.
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The law is bad, that's my whole point.

In this case more and equal are not different.
 

Section2 said:
The issue is that women want to be treated as equals, and want equal fan support. I don't care what size ball they use, I just think its a joke that they want equal treatment yet use a smaller ball. I think it's a joke that I hear people argue that the women's game is more pure, and that their form is better, and free throw percentages are cited as evidence. It's a smaller ball! My bigger cup size for golf is a perfect analogy. If they want to use a smaller ball, fine, I truly don't care, because I don't care much for most women's sports. I do care about title IX and these silly equality arguments.


Thank you for not disappointing and calling me ignorant, I was waiting for it.
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CoMn said:
Women and Men are not equal.....once again...no one is implying that. Are apples and oranges equal? Dogs and cats? That being said...women deserve to be treated equally. It is because of unequal treatment that title ix was passed in the first place. It is because so many people would like to be rid of women's sports because they can't play as well with a big basketball that title ix continues to exist. It is because of that type of attitude that the University might end up with some kind of sanctions. Title ix is not a difficult rule to follow and arguing against it's value does more to argue for its value.
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This whole discussion/debate started when duece stated "I just think its a joke that they want equal treatment yet use a smaller ball."(and previous such comment in this thread). The size of the women's basketball vs size of a men's basketball has nothing to do with Title IX or political correctness. It was determined by the governing bodies that the smaller ball would be better for the women's game. If they want to change the size of the men's basketball that would be a separate issue. They have no affect on each other.

The size of the cup in golf is an incredibly absurd example....they play the same green. Do you want two different cups on each green? THAT would affect the men's game and would be stupid.

Title IX was brought into this discussion ONLY because you(Section 2) have a problem with it(as you have stated) and don't think it is fair.

Title IX is about equal opportunity. The size of the basketball has nothing to do with equal opportunity.

If you want to complain about Title IX go ahead and knock yourself out but don't try to include the size of the basketball in discussions of equality and equal opportunity.
 

station19 said:
This whole discussion/debate started when duece stated "I just think its a joke that they want equal treatment yet use a smaller ball."(and previous such comment in this thread). The size of the women's basketball vs size of a men's basketball has nothing to do with Title IX or political correctness. It was determined by the governing bodies that the smaller ball would be better for the women's game. If they want to change the size of the men's basketball that would be a separate issue. They have no affect on each other.

The size of the cup in golf is an incredibly absurd example....they play the same green. Do you want two different cups on each green? THAT would affect the men's game and would be stupid.

Title IX was brought into this discussion ONLY because you(Section 2) have a problem with it(as you have stated) and don't think it is fair.

Title IX is about equal opportunity. The size of the basketball has nothing to do with equal opportunity.

If you want to complain about Title IX go ahead and knock yourself out but don't try to include the size of the basketball in discussions of equality and equal opportunity.
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I should restate the bold part of my post. It was actually a discussion about Title IX and then Section 2 brought the size of the women's basketball into the discussion. Same result of intertwining two subjects that have nothing to do with each other though.
 

station19 said:
This whole discussion/debate started when duece stated "I just think its a joke that they want equal treatment yet use a smaller ball."(and previous such comment in this thread). The size of the women's basketball vs size of a men's basketball has nothing to do with Title IX or political correctness. It was determined by the governing bodies that the smaller ball would be better for the women's game. If they want to change the size of the men's basketball that would be a separate issue. They have no affect on each other.

The size of the cup in golf is an incredibly absurd example....they play the same green. Do you want two different cups on each green? THAT would affect the men's game and would be stupid.

Title IX was brought into this discussion ONLY because you(Section 2) have a problem with it(as you have stated) and don't think it is fair.

Title IX is about equal opportunity. The size of the basketball has nothing to do with equal opportunity.

If you want to complain about Title IX go ahead and knock yourself out but don't try to include the size of the basketball in discussions of equality and equal opportunity.
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Sorry, the fact that they use a smaller ball matters because it is evidence of inequality. You are avoiding the crux of the issue, equality. You want it in some respects and not in others, always when convenient.
My view on title IX has nothing to do with "fairness" it has to do with the freedom of institutions to implement the athletic programs of their choosing. The Feds of course should not be involved.
 

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