Looking back...

[builtbadgers]

The dirty little secret is that built badgers never thought it was a 13 win team unless Bennett, Bo Ryan or John Wooden coached them. It was always a set up so that he could whack the legs out of him at the end of the year. This was a team that would have won 6 if everything went wrong and could have won 12-13 games if everything went right.

This team has two really good players. A third that I think is a really good player but is having a bad year and two more who just are not Big Ten starters but could be good depth. That's not 13 wins in the Big Ten. Coffey and a less athletic Curry than we saw as a frosh could have made this team a 13 win team- maybe.

I have liked a lot of what I have seen of this team but they never had any margin for error. Too many errors - missed bunnies, missed free throws, missed open threes have been statistically too frequent. It's not just one guy, it seems like it is the same thing by a different player or two each game that costs us.

Wrong. I thought with Jeter on staff that we would be a top 20 defense . That brings wins. Finding players that buy in is not so easy and even more difficult to teach with practice limits. Also, I spelled out very specifically the day one mistake was not instilling a culture, the thing you will hang your hat on everyday. A identity that you recruit too. If in fact he rerouted to what he hoped would be that he did very poorly. In a bottom line business he has done poorly. I can not be more clear about the need for great defense to build a winner.

 

[builtbadgers]

I hear ya. This just makes me think the coach has to really develop relationships with these kids, or have assistants that are able to develop these relationships. I think that goes along way. I think I'm probably talking more about the kids that are more up in the air about where they want to go. I know there are kids who just say they're going 500 miles away because that's what they want. I would also say that don't you think kids at that age have a mind that's easily adjusted based on who they interact with (coaches), how much they like them, and what that coach can convince them? I'm not saying this is true for all, or maybe not even most, just making that suggestion.

Really tough now as the vast majority of these kids travel and talk about who the best coaches are, where they have the best programs who is their best offer. Unless a kid really wants to stay home he is heavily weighing in those other factors. We have state kids elsewhere that tell the younger kids here what their experiences have been, who they think are the better coaches. These kids are smart and do their research. Very few recruits will think this staff measures up in anyway to their other choices.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Wrong. I thought with Jeter on staff that we would be a top 20 defense . That brings wins. Finding players that buy in is not so easy and even more difficult to teach with practice limits. Also, I spelled out very specifically the day one mistake was not instilling a culture, the thing you will hang your hat on everyday. A identity that you recruit too. If in fact he rerouted to what he hoped would be that he did very poorly. In a bottom line business he has done poorly. I can not be more clear about the need for great defense to build a winner.

I felt the same about Jeter and its why I liked this roster so much at the start of the year.

 

[BarnBurner]

The dirty little secret is that built badgers never thought it was a 13 win team unless Bennett, Bo Ryan or John Wooden coached them. It was always a set up so that he could whack the legs out of him at the end of the year. This was a team that would have won 6 if everything went wrong and could have won 12-13 games if everything went right.

This team has two really good players. A third that I think is a really good player but is having a bad year and two more who just are not Big Ten starters but could be good depth. That's not 13 wins in the Big Ten. Coffey and a less athletic Curry than we saw as a frosh could have made this team a 13 win team- maybe.

I have liked a lot of what I have seen of this team but they never had any margin for error. Too many errors - missed bunnies, missed free throws, missed open threes have been statistically too frequent. It's not just one guy, it seems like it is the same thing by a different player or two each game that costs us.

Nailed it. Badger is dishonest.

 

[bga1]

Wrong. I thought with Jeter on staff that we would be a top 20 defense . That brings wins. Finding players that buy in is not so easy and even more difficult to teach with practice limits. Also, I spelled out very specifically the day one mistake was not instilling a culture, the thing you will hang your hat on everyday. A identity that you recruit too. If in fact he rerouted to what he hoped would be that he did very poorly. In a bottom line business he has done poorly. I can not be more clear about the need for great defense to build a winner.

So I agree with you. Great defense wins a lot of games. There is also a base level of ability you need to play it and as you say, players need to buy in and you need to recruit to it. A lot of that goes right to the point I have been making this year. He is getting better and recognizing flaws. He brought in Jeter. Incoming recruit Mashburn is a quality kid that his coach puts in the best opposing guard. He's a tough kid who defends. Ditto Williams. Omersa is a tough kid. Gabe is tough. Oturu is a so so defender who will get there in time and he is improving. Carr is an ok defender, tough kid but he expends a ton of energy on offense.That could improve. Ihnen didn't play because he was getting lost on defense. I'd see him miss an assignment and he'd get yanked. Clearly he could have been used offensively like he is now but the lights are just now going on defensively (and he still gets burned at times). Demir plays smart on D but he is so ground bound and slow that it is tough for him to be excellent on defense. So I think defense has been an emphasis this year and they need to keep getting better and better guys to play it.

He's going to get fired in all likelihood and I think that's fair. But I also think that he is getting better and will be a good to great coach. He got hired into a tough, tough spot at age 31.

 

[builtbadgers]

So I agree with you. Great defense wins a lot of games. There is also a base level of ability you need to play it and as you say, players need to buy in and you need to recruit to it. A lot of that goes right to the point I have been making this year. He is getting better and recognizing flaws. He brought in Jeter. Incoming recruit Mashburn is a quality kid that his coach puts in the best opposing guard. He's a tough kid who defends. Ditto Williams. Omersa is a tough kid. Gabe is tough. Oturu is a so so defender who will get there in time and he is improving. Carr is an ok defender, tough kid but he expends a ton of energy on offense.That could improve. Ihnen didn't play because he was getting lost on defense. I'd see him miss an assignment and he'd get yanked. Clearly he could have been used offensively like he is now but the lights are just now going on defensively (and he still gets burned at times). Demir plays smart on D but he is so ground bound and slow that it is tough for him to be excellent on defense. So I think defense has been an emphasis this year and they need to keep getting better and better guys to play it.

He's going to get fired in all likelihood and I think that's fair. But I also think that he is getting better and will be a good to great coach. He got hired into a tough, tough spot at age 31.

It is ok to have different opinions. I do not resort to name calling or the ultra imaginative "troll" comment that surfaces when someone hates another's post. Also we seem to have a great divide over what we see and what we call great. Do you think if we kept him that he will win conference championships ? Do you think he will win more games than Greg Gard ? Just a question, do you closely watch what other conference teams are doing with their recruiting classes ? It is only a message board. I have friends who think he can become a top 6 coach in the conference. He needs to be top 3 minimum to be great in my book. And that is just this conference. See, i do not think there is even close to 50 great coaches in the game, that would be one in 7, not so elite. For me you better be top 20 minimum to be considered great.

 

[Bad Gopher]

After watching the season play out, I definitely think they could have gone 13-7. I didn't expect it coming in because there were so many unknowns. I had no idea what we could accomplish until they started playing and I could see it with my eyes. Look at all the close games and FT disasters. If Wisconsin can be tied for first in the BT right now, we could have gone 13-7. I wasn't against Pitino until the Iowa game. I honestly believe he is just not good enough. We'd know by now if he was. He is not inspiring anyone: fans, recruits, players. They are coached in a way that they are mentally weak at the end of games and find ways to lose. That is not new this year. I was a fan for a long time. I made a lot of excuses for him. But it's over. If Coyle doesn't move on, I will be disappointed. It is not going to end well if he comes back. I see it being a carbon copy of what happened with Monson his last two years.

Good thoughts.

Another way I'd put it: anyone who thinks the dreams of the Gophers competing for Big Ten titles are pipe dreams--look to the east. The Badgers are in first place in the last week of the season with a roster having comparable talent to Minnesota's.

 

[builtbadgers]

Good thoughts.

Another way I'd put it: anyone who thinks the dreams of the Gophers competing for Big Ten titles are pipe dreams--look to the east. The Badgers are in first place in the last week of the season with a roster having comparable talent to Minnesota's.

A roster that was mocked by many here. Plus those kids were not the Minnesota elite state recruits. Gard knows how to build a team.If we switched coaches we would crush UW.

 

[bga1]

Good thoughts.

Another way I'd put it: anyone who thinks the dreams of the Gophers competing for Big Ten titles are pipe dreams--look to the east. The Badgers are in first place in the last week of the season with a roster having comparable talent to Minnesota's.

When we play Wisconsin we have the best two players on the floor, then they have the next 7. They have better overall talent. When we hammered Wisconsin by 18 it was because we got 39 points out Willis, Demir and Gabe something that hasn't happened much.

Because of the numbers they have that can score they shoot the ball better by a MILE. FT% - 76 them 67 us 3 pt FG% 35% them 32% us. Their defense is not nearly as good as the Ryan days but they have played disciplined enough and shot well.

 

[bga1]

A roster that was mocked by many here. Plus those kids were not the Minnesota elite state recruits. Gard knows how to build a team.If we switched coaches we would crush UW.

Really poor form that last statement built- low blow that reveals you.
We did crush them though. 70-52. Did Gard coach the Gophers that night?? It looked like Pitino to me.

 

[Bad Gopher]

When we play Wisconsin we have the best two players on the floor, then they have the next 7. They have better overall talent. When we hammered Wisconsin by 18 it was because we got 39 points out Willis, Demir and Gabe something that hasn't happened much.

Because of the numbers they have that can score they shoot the ball better by a MILE. FT% - 76 them 67 us 3 pt FG% 35% them 32% us. Their defense is not nearly as good as the Ryan days but they have played disciplined enough and shot well.

Do a mock draft of the combined rosters. No way the next 7 are all Badgers. That's downright dishonest.

 

[Moonlight]

A roster that was mocked by many here. Plus those kids were not the Minnesota elite state recruits. Gard knows how to build a team.If we switched coaches we would crush UW.

There are a few problems with that. Would we be ok with a UW look?

 

[Moonlight]

I have a lot reason to be critical of the Lynch situation, but remember that Lynch had deep Minnesota ties and Pitino really had to take him. Some of you may remember Kevin...

 

[builtbadgers]

Really poor form that last statement built- low blow that reveals you.
We did crush them though. 70-52. Did Gard coach the Gophers that night?? It looked like Pitino to me.

Low blow ? I believe that Gard is vastly superior coach over Pitino. Opinions.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

Takes a coach that can convince them to be though. That's what makes a good recruiter. I understand you can't win 'em all but you should hope to win the majority of those you target.

Unrealistic for today.... 20 years ago maybe. Social media rules these kids

 

[Gopherbbdude]

This team was never a 13 win team.... 10 maybe

 

[bga1]

Do a mock draft of the combined rosters. No way the next 7 are all Badgers. That's downright dishonest.

No. Wisconsin had 7 different guys lead them in scoring in games this year. We had 4. Willis led us in scoring once. Kalscheur 4 times. If I was drafting players I'd pick Oturu first, Carr second, then Reuvers, Trice, Potter, Davison, Ford, Pritzl and King who played most of their games (19) would all come ahead of the way Kalscheur played this year. Kalscheur if he goes back to form would be in the middle of that pack. You might draft differently but now that you see the actual facts I bet I am not far off if you are honest about it.

 

[builtbadgers]

When we play Wisconsin we have the best two players on the floor, then they have the next 7. They have better overall talent. When we hammered Wisconsin by 18 it was because we got 39 points out Willis, Demir and Gabe something that hasn't happened much.

Because of the numbers they have that can score they shoot the ball better by a MILE. FT% - 76 them 67 us 3 pt FG% 35% them 32% us. Their defense is not nearly as good as the Ryan days but they have played disciplined enough and shot well.

We outscore them ppp, damn near even but they crush us defensively and survive on many nights when shooting fails. We are like 10th or 11th on ppp defense in the conference.

 

[bga1]

Low blow ? I believe that Gard is vastly superior coach over Pitino. Opinions.

The switch coaches thing is a jerk comment and you know it. Otherwise you have a right to your opinion on just how good Gard is- I think he is a solid coach not great. The arc is slight down since Ryan.

 

[builtbadgers]

No. Wisconsin had 7 different guys lead them in scoring in games this year. We had 4. Willis led us in scoring once. Kalscheur 4 times. If I was drafting players I'd pick Oturu first, Carr second, then Reuvers, Trice, Potter, Davison, Ford, Pritzl and King who played most of their games (19) would all come ahead of the way Kalscheur played this year. Kalscheur if he goes back to form would be in the middle of that pack. You might draft differently but now that you see the actual facts I bet I am not far off if you are honest about it.

They are way better without King and never whined about losing him. Gard needed one game to adjust ! Most Gopher fans do not think Davison is any good, Reuvers just ok, Pritzl was called worthless on here. Gard would take your first two picks and made great role players with the other pieces. He would have a top 20 defense with our roster.

 

[builtbadgers]

The switch coaches thing is a jerk comment and you know it. Otherwise you have a right to your opinion on just how good Gard is- I think he is a solid coach not great. The arc is slight down since Ryan.

So you think Pitino will surpass Gard. Comment was not meant as a jerk comment at all. He is just so far superior to Pitino.

 

[Bad Gopher]

No. Wisconsin had 7 different guys lead them in scoring in games this year. We had 4. Willis led us in scoring once. Kalscheur 4 times. If I was drafting players I'd pick Oturu first, Carr second, then Reuvers, Trice, Potter, Davison, Ford, Pritzl and King who played most of their games (19) would all come ahead of the way Kalscheur played this year. Kalscheur if he goes back to form would be in the middle of that pack. You might draft differently but now that you see the actual facts I bet I am not far off if you are honest about it.

I've had my critiques of Pitino's recruiting, but it's nowhere near as shitty as you're making it sound. If our roster is indeed as bad as you're making it out to be, Richard should be fired immediately just on the basis of recruiting.

 

[bga1]

So you think Pitino will surpass Gard. Comment was not meant as a jerk comment at all. He is just so far superior to Pitino.

Of course it was meant as a jerk comment. It was a huge slam. Just say you think Gard is better than Pitino and leave it at that. No one is going to argue that one at this point in their careers. Gard got handed a slow motion basketball franchise and was told to not mess it up. He's done okay. Pitino got handed a 40 year mess and was told to fix it. He hasn't.

Gard at age 31 (age Pitino was hired at) was an assistant coach at Milwaukee and then for 15 years an assistant under Bo. When Bo was going to leave Wisky didn't want to hire him until Bo forced it. Why did no one hire Gard all of those years- the wizard that he is?

 

[bga1]

I've had my critiques of Pitino's recruiting, but it's nowhere near as shitty as you're making it sound. If our roster is indeed as bad as you're making it out to be, Richard should be fired immediately just on the basis of recruiting.

I fully documented the recruiting issue in my initial post. He has been too sporadic and has not gotten enough of the good ones. I think he is getting better (his last three classes including the one we haven't seen yet) but probably too little too late. I see you were unable to refute the draft order once presented with the facts. How would you draft 'em? Where was I off?

 

[Bad Gopher]

Of course it was meant as a jerk comment. It was a huge slam. Just say you think Gard is better than Pitino and leave it at that. No one is going to argue that one at this point in their careers. Gard got handed a slow motion basketball franchise and was told to not mess it up. He's done okay. Pitino got handed a 40 year mess and was told to fix it. He hasn't.

More dishonesty. This is not a 40-year mess. The first 17 years of those 40 years included successes that someone like Pitino could not even dream about much less duplicate.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I fully documented the recruiting issue in my initial post. He has been too sporadic and has not gotten enough of the good ones. I think he is getting better (his last three classes including the one we haven't seen yet) but probably too little too late. I see you were unable to refute the draft order once presented with the facts. How would you draft 'em? Where was I off?

I'm not going to validate your rotten post by trying to refute it. Let's just say I like our players better than you do. You can shit on our players to protect the coach, but I'm not going to.

 

[builtbadgers]

Of course it was meant as a jerk comment. It was a huge slam. Just say you think Gard is better than Pitino and leave it at that. No one is going to argue that one at this point in their careers. Gard got handed a slow motion basketball franchise and was told to not mess it up. He's done okay. Pitino got handed a 40 year mess and was told to fix it. He hasn't.

Gard at age 31 (age Pitino was hired at) was an assistant coach at Milwaukee and then for 15 years an assistant under Bo. When Bo was going to leave Wisky didn't want to hire him until Bo forced it. Why did no one hire Gard all of those years- the wizard that he is?

Gard was never leaving the state for all kinds of very personal reasons. He did 75% of the scouting and recruiting and had a huge hand in Ryan's success. That staff was loaded and everyone knew it. Spent a ton of time here with him watching high school players, he turned down plenty of jobs since 2008. Never called him a wizard. Sorry that you took it as a low blow or jerk comment. It is totally fine that you want to keep Pitino, some fans will call you a jerk for that. I hope we keep him as well. As long as we win the conference tourney and get to the sweet 16.

 

[bga1]

I'm not going to validate your rotten post by trying to refute it. Let's just say I like our players better than you do. You can shit on our players to protect the coach, but I'm not going to.

I really like Gabe. He has just not had a good year. I really really like Ihnen and Williams as well but their time has not arrived yet. Omersa is a role player who I love the spirit of and Willis would be a nice off the bench guy. I don't dislike any of them, they just haven't played like Big Ten starters this year. If you think they are better than the 7 Wisky guys I listed- go for it. I wish it were true based on this year's performance. I have contended all year that if complementary guys were playing at a high level we would be having a good year.

 

[bga1]

Gard was never leaving the state for all kinds of very personal reasons. He did 75% of the scouting and recruiting and had a huge hand in Ryan's success. That staff was loaded and everyone knew it. Spent a ton of time here with him watching high school players, he turned down plenty of jobs since 2008. Never called him a wizard. Sorry that you took it as a low blow or jerk comment. It is totally fine that you want to keep Pitino, some fans will call you a jerk for that. I hope we keep him as well. As long as we win the conference tourney and get to the sweet 16.

Well I have said about 30 times that I will accept it either way. I just don't think he is as bad as you say.

 

[bga1]

More dishonesty. This is not a 40-year mess. The first 17 years of those 40 years included successes that someone like Pitino could not even dream about much less duplicate.

How much cheating did we do? That's at the core of the problem.