Looking back...

[bga1]

That style does not fly in the Big 10. Again, your titled to use the word incredible for the FIU job but I would go with OK. He has had 7 years. Still behind him to the end, he can still win next year. This team can beat practically anyone but you have to do it as could have, would have, if and but mean absolutely nothing to me.

I'd call this great, certainly better than ok... you saying ok really is revealing

Per Wiki:

Pitino left his position as the associate head coach at Louisville to become the head coach at FIU on April 15, 2012 replacing Isiah Thomas. [3] With only six players remaining from the previous season, and not all of them on scholarship, Pitino cobbled together a team and coached a high-pressure defense that finished eighth in the nation in steals. He was able to compile an 18-14 record (11-9 in the Sun Belt conference) in his first season as head coach. This was FIU's first winning season since 1999-2000 and most wins overall since 1997-98. His FIU team also had the best conference record in school history. Additionally, FIU reached the Sun Belt Tournament Title game as a four seed, before falling to Western Kentucky in the tournament championship game, 65-63.

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MIAMI (AP) — Richard Pitino second-guesses himself after every game. He anguishes over the mistakes he makes on the Florida International sideline, then reviews them repeatedly in an effort to get better.
Fortunately for the Panthers, their first-year coach seems to be making plenty of right decisions.
For the first time in 13 seasons, FIU might be on the way to a winning record. The Panthers are 13-10 heading into a Sun Belt Conference game at North Texas on Saturday night.
Sitting three games over .500 might not sound all that impressive, but keep this in mind: The last time FIU won more than 13 games was 1999-2000, which also was the last season in which the Panthers didn’t finish with a losing mark.
And at this rate, Rick Pitino’s son will soon be making his own name on the sideline.
“We start two walk-ons; we really only play five scholarship guys and I think the lesson to be learned is, in Year 1, you’ve got to have great kids,” Richard Pitino said. “And these guys are great kids. They do whatever we ask. They give unbelievable effort. They’ve been fun for me because I’m far from the coach that I need to be, so I’m able to make my mistakes with them and learn from them, and they’re able to learn from me as well.”
Pitino was hired last year after the Panthers fired Hall of Fame player Isiah Thomas, who went 26-65 in his three seasons at the school. Some turmoil followed that move, with players upset over the firing, a few even protesting it to university administrators, and the roster went into a complete state of flux with names coming and going.
When Pitino sat down to get ready for his rookie season at FIU, he simply said, “I don’t know what we have.”
He’s quickly finding out what he has, and he’s liking what he’s seeing.
Since the start of January, the Panthers are 9-3. Entering Friday’s schedule, only nine teams in the country have won more games in that span than the Panthers, who were widely picked to finish last in their half of the Sun Belt entering the season but are carrying an 8-6 mark in conference play.
“It feels so good, man,” said FIU forward Tymell Murphy. “When I got here in July, people weren’t really high on the basketball team. They knew we’d had some down years, for a long time. The feeling now walking around campus, they know who we are. They know we’re playing hard; they say hello, and I really appreciate that.”
By Pitino’s own estimation, when FIU opened the season, about 100 people were in the seats. More than 1,500 were there Thursday night when the Panthers easily beat archrival Florida Atlantic.
It’s a start.
“By no means have we arrived, but now we’ve got a good environment,” Pitino said. “So now these guys have seen and tasted success and they want more. And when you start from scratch, like we did, they see what happens when you work hard. They’re reaping all the rewards from it and all the benefits from it.”
Pitino’s two biggest mentors are his father — the famed Louisville coach, whose sideline mannerisms are almost perfectly matched now by his son — and Florida coach Billy Donovan, under whom Richard Pitino formerly worked.
FIU’s system is simple: It’s Florida’s offense and Louisville’s defense. OK, so FIU doesn’t have anywhere near the level of talent that you’ll find on the Cardinals and Gators rosters. But what the 30-year-old Richard Pitino is doing is teaching a proven way to win, and his players are taking to it more quickly than anyone expected.
“I love playing for Coach P,” said Murphy, who was a standout on a 36-0 junior-college team last season. “His style of play fits my game so well, that I have no choice but to love the way he coaches and his enthusiasm and his love for the game. Sometimes he gets on me, and it motivates me. I want that, a coach who makes you play hard and gets on you and makes you better when you’re not playing hard.”
Richard Pitino calls his father every day — Rick Pitino usually watches games online, and by the time his kid gets to check his phone, a postgame critique is waiting. And he talks to Donovan nearly as often.
“The great thing about Billy and my dad, they’re always willing to give me advice,” Pitino said. “They understand where I’m at. I call Billy every single day, almost like I call my dad, and I’m so appreciative that they give the time to try to teach me. It’s so exciting. For me, I can’t try to be Billy Donovan, I can’t try to be Rick Pitino. I’ve got to be my own man and play my own style, and it’s been fun trying to figure it out.”
Given the record, he might be closer to figuring things out than he would have expected, 23 games into his career as a head coach.
“I think we’re a little ahead of schedule from where I thought we’d be,” Pitino said. “But these guys have shown a lot of heart. It’s been fun."

 

[skiumah1]

Last night I decided to look back at the Pitino era through the eyes of the GH posters. This is not to nail anyone but just to look and see how perceptions have changed over time and to make some sense of how we got here.

So I looked at key junctures in his path to where we are:

Year one- At the beginning of that year there was an article posted quoting Andre Hollins that Pitino has brought a breath of fresh air to the program - a new excitement. Months later Mo Walker had lost a bunch of weight and we had a speedy little PG. The problem was having no power forward- a fatal flaw in the Big Ten. At the end of the year, we won the NIT and the pretty much universal opinion here was that Pitino has done a terrific coaching job with what he had to work with. That was an opinion shared by Scools and Halsey Hall. The team ran and led the league in +/- turnovers.

But the problems with recruiting were already underway- though we perhaps didn't know it. Pitino shot for 5 star players and seemed to get an audience with a lot of players but could not close the deal. He did get Mason and Martin but reached for Konate and Dheidou and also got Carlos Morris. As we now know- only Mason had a productive career. With the misses year three was now fated to be a bad one. It was a class he had to nail and he didn't. In a 4 year span - the last two years of Tubby and the first two years of Pitino- the Gophers really only got 2 solid players, Lil Dre and Mason. Lofton transferred in but never saw the floor and was dismissed. McNeil got in trouble and he was gone.

For year three he did land a nice class of Murphy, McBrayer, Dorsey, Johnson and Gilbert. Of course we got terrible news on Johnson and he would never play. Still the guys who could were athletic and promising but the on court results were dreadful. There was already talk on the GH that Pitino was in over his head. Then we went into Indiana and looked amazing until losing at the end. Shortly after that we stunned Maryland and it appeared the future might be bright with these young guys. That didn't last long, however, as soon after we had a sex scandal and the three involved were suspended and the season ended in a train wreck, killing the joy. Pitino was on the hot seat with some of the GHers and some of the media right then and there.

Year 4 he gets Lynch to transfer in and we suddenly have post defense. We also add Coffey, Curry and Hurt and go 11-7 in conference- 4th place, Pitino is coach of the year in the Big Ten, Pitino gets his first NCAA appearance and we are ready to be great in the following year. Adding to the excitement we get two New York kids, top 100 PG IW and a great shooter in Harris. We had talent AND depth for the first time in the Pitino era.

Year 5 brings a team that is ranked as high as 12th in the country. Curry was out for the year right off the bat but the team still was strong. But the bizarre Alabama game brought a weird feeling about the team. Then shortly after, the Lynch fiasco. Then Coffey got hurt, McBrayer was playing hurt, IW and Harris were not fitting and the team was gutted. A promising year down the drain and really a total buzz kill for the program which appeared to have great momentum.

In the process we do land Oturu, Gabe and Omersa and in year 6 the team is again competitive. Marcus Carr transfers in but inexplicably the NCAA rules against eligibility - he has to sit. Squeaking into the NCAAs and getting a big win against Louisville with Murphy and Coffey leading the way, with Coffey playing out of position at the point. Perhaps Carr would have been a difference maker? It seems so.

Coffey goes NBA waiting until the last minute to decide. Losing Murph and Coffey, it looks like a mediocre year 7, IW and Harris are gone as IW sees that Carr is the PG. The recruiting class appears solid for the long term but no immediate stars and really not a ton of instant depth either. Curry will be back, but nope, he is hurt again and never plays a minute. The team struggles early against perhaps the toughest schedule in the nation. Pitino feeling the seat being hot, plays a tight lineup and the young guys get little court time. But as Big Ten season starts, Oturu is a star and so is Carr and the team starts to look pretty promising and will perhaps deliver Pitino and fans a third NCAA in four years. Close game after close game are lost through a tragic comedy of errors and here we are today- another losing year.

My assessment is that Pitino can coach at this level, although I think he has been coaching "tight" and not to lose for a few years. He has been off and on the hot seat since year 3 and it shows. He has had a ton of recruiting misses and misfortunes mostly in the early years:

Pure recruiting misses:
Martin, Konate, Dheidou, Harris, Gilbert, Hurt, Greenlee ( I like him but probably), IW (bad fit in Big Ten)

Can play but character issues:
McNeil, Lofton, Lynch, Dorsey

Pure bad luck:
Curry, Johnson, first year of Carr, Buckles ( the big PF we could have had in year 1 but NCAA said no)

Add it up and you have 14 recruits that couldn't/ didn't contribute much for varying reasons and that is behind the serious depth issue Pitino has had. Over that time period you get perhaps 20-24 recruits to work with. You simply cannot survive on a less than 50/50 success ratio.

Bottom line: I think he can coach but his rosters have been dreadfully thin due to the recruiting issues. It has cut down on his options, tightened him up as a coach, put him on the hot seat and changed the arc of his program.
I think his recruiting is getting better with high character guys. I see better defense when the guys aren't worn out and they compete hard in every game save for a few clinkers (Iowa there and home to Indiana). I think he is going to be a good coach somewhere, perhaps really good, but I think it will be difficult for him to regain momentum here without some unexpected shot in the arm like a great spring recruiting crop (maybe Walton a Juco star and a grad transfer would do that). Tough situation.

I think that a whole range of opinions on the situation are valid. In terms of recruiting he has made much of the situation he faces.

Well done. It's nice to see the breakdown over the years. I think you nailed it with Pitino trying not to lose instead of trying to win games. He's always seemed that way to me and inevitably you're gonna lose if that's the mindset. I thought we were fortunate that year he made his first tournament and we lost first round to Mid Tenn St. It always felt like we were waiting for everything to come together with that team and it never really did. We went on a run in the Big Ten regular season but the Big Ten wasn't nearly what it is now and I think we just got fortunate. I don't think we went and won those games. They just landed in our lap.
Overall I'd sum Pitino up with that non-lose mentality. He definitely was in over his head and he might be getting better but after 7 years and looking at it all, you gotta move on. Looking around the country that non-lose vs. play to win mentality is a huge differentiator when you look at the best vs. the rest coaches.
Thanks for the piece. Good read, better overall understanding and validation of the Pitino tenure.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

slightly off-track, but thinking about this:

expectations for the coach depend in large part on expectations for the program.

The raw numbers: Since 1971, Gopher Men's BB has won 3 Conf titles. That's 3 in 49 years.
Gophers had 4 consecutive years with a winning B1G record from '93 to '97. since 1997 - 23 years - they have had 3 seasons with a winning B1G record. 1 season with a winning B1G record since 2005 - 15 years.

Since 1971, Gophers have gone to NCAA tourney 14 Times. NIT 15 times. 20 seasons with no tournament appearance.

So, what are the realistic expectations for the program?

Simply put, Pitino may have a low winning percentage in B1G play, but his performance is generally in line with historical standards.

it's not that Pitino is a terrible coach. to put it Bluntly, the gophers have been an average to below-average program, and definitely below-average for last 15 years.

At some point, you are your record.

 

[bga1]

Great Post. I would be interested where Pitino's straight up recruiting misses stack up against other coaches in the B1G? Pitino has around 8-10 depending on where you stand on the character issues. Is his miss number way higher than other coaches? Does he not force out recruits as hard as other coaches?

So that's a really interesting question but would be some pretty hefty research. I took one coach, Fran at Iowa to look at how he has done, since I think our program ought to do as well as them, and since he has faced some challenges.

He was hitting at about 50 percent for about three/four years years but since then, in the last 5 years almost all of his recruits have been effective players. The jury is out on Nunge because of injuries but Fran has had a lot of hits and because of it even this year with injuries he is at least able to go 8-9 deep without a problem.

As I look at our last three years I would say he is on the right track if Mashburn and Mitchell are as expected. This is just a crystal ball of how it might work out..... some role players and so far 1 star player and I think there are 2-3 more in the making (stars)
Oturu/Omersa/ Gabe 3 for 3
Ihnen/ Williams/ Freeman/Demir/ Greenlee 3 for 5
Mashburn/Mitchell 2 for 2

 

[bga1]

Well done. It's nice to see the breakdown over the years. I think you nailed it with Pitino trying not to lose instead of trying to win games. He's always seemed that way to me and inevitably you're gonna lose if that's the mindset. I thought we were fortunate that year he made his first tournament and we lost first round to Mid Tenn St. It always felt like we were waiting for everything to come together with that team and it never really did. We went on a run in the Big Ten regular season but the Big Ten wasn't nearly what it is now and I think we just got fortunate. I don't think we went and won those games. They just landed in our lap.
Overall I'd sum Pitino up with that non-lose mentality. He definitely was in over his head and he might be getting better but after 7 years and looking at it all, you gotta move on. Looking around the country that non-lose vs. play to win mentality is a huge differentiator when you look at the best vs. the rest coaches.
Thanks for the piece. Good read, better overall understanding and validation of the Pitino tenure.

I think a lot of life is like that. You get started in something and you have success and people like it and everything builds from there. If you have early failures it gets tough to erase that. Pitino's first year was solid and built some momentum but then people expected more and got less- year three with the combination of the losing and the scandal put him into the play not to lose mode to some degree.

 

[bga1]

slightly off-track, but thinking about this:

expectations for the coach depend in large part on expectations for the program.

The raw numbers: Since 1971, Gopher Men's BB has won 3 Conf titles. That's 3 in 49 years.
Gophers had 4 consecutive years with a winning B1G record from '93 to '97. since 1997 - 23 years - they have had 3 seasons with a winning B1G record. 1 season with a winning B1G record since 2005 - 15 years.

Since 1971, Gophers have gone to NCAA tourney 14 Times. NIT 15 times. 20 seasons with no tournament appearance.

So, what are the realistic expectations for the program?

Simply put, Pitino may have a low winning percentage in B1G play, but his performance is generally in line with historical standards.

it's not that Pitino is a terrible coach. to put it Bluntly, the gophers have been an average to below-average program, and definitely below-average for last 15 years.

At some point, you are your record.

That is 100% correct. At some point a coach here is going to have to be given the time, catch a break or two and of course coach well, to get beyond this history. Further to your point - we cheated to win in the Mussy years and we cheated to win in the Haskins years you refer to (93-97). Where would we have been without Bobby Jackson who apparently did not have the transcript to get in? That's how tough it has been here.

 

[MinnGopher]

First mistake was not his, it was Teague who hired him while he had not shown a single thing to be considered a brilliant teacher and builder. At a school this good your not going to build right away to win right away with transfers but you have to recruit character first\, guys you can essentially lose with that you will win with because of that character. you establish a defensive and toughness identity from day one , the thing you can count on every single day. You hire a great staff. Could care less about age , long history of guys that did great early by calendar years but their growth in previous roles as assistant was really impressive. If his last name was Johnson he would never have been hired. That is not his fault for taking the job, thrilled for him that he got the opportunity. There were few if any any basketball folks without a bias that would have listed him as surefire like they did with Bennett or Wright or Stevens,Beard. People everywhere I went were raving about them. They stood out in way anyone would notice right away. He was the 7th choice for a reason, again not his fault but that first part of never having established a identity of character,tougness mentally and physically and committed to the toughness of playing defense is a great place to start. I get it, not everyone is gifted or great in every profession, few are. That is why they are called great. They blow away expectations, never make excuses, learn and grow. Why I stress defense is you can control it, recruit to it and build a team energy. You can survive bad shooting nights. Look at UVA. they are not even any good but they are 5-1 when scoring 50 or less and the rest of the country is 7-476 !!!! The part about your first two teams being guys you can lose with is about growing a culture that the old guys teach the young guys and everyone knows that a team lead by players leading players has a coach that is a true leader. The exception to this is the blue bloods who simply have the most talented players. YOU WILL NOT BEAT THEM AT THEIR GAME. So you find a way, a time tested way that works wonderfully and is sustainable, not a one year 4th place finish to proclaim greatness. That is what intrigues me about Fleck, created a culture, lost and then grew together and won. Will be awesome to see if he builds on that. What he has done on the football side is remarkable. Of course he was hired by a actual athletic director of ability.

I don't disagree with much in there, but wasn't the question "what did he do wrong from day 1?" I asked because I would have thought you had specific things in mind that he did from day 1. You want someone with an "established identity of character, toughness mentally/physically, and are committed to playing defense." Please tell me, what coaches that have those characteristics would consider a job that is essentially a rebuild?

I understand that you aren't a Pitino fan, and there is a lack of results to back that up along with other facts why I someone might not be a fan, but you keep saying outlandish things and defend them with jibberish. I asked what he did wrong from day 1, you haven't responded with things he did/didn't do his first year or when he took over the program. What were those mistakes?

You have been asked this multiple times, before by me too, and you don't ever give concrete examples when asked about why you say things about specific points in his tenure. Then you say something about "everyone can choose their own standard," but seem to have none when it comes to using factual statements or observations to back up the specific statement you made. Once again I appreciate your insight, but this is why people attack you on here (most of the times taking it too far). If you are going to make these statements, have something to back it up that is talking about what Richard did. Not Bennett, Wisconsin, Fleck, Norwood or Coyle, those specifics really have little to do with what he has personally done in his tenure, or his ability to do it at a high level.

 

[BarnBurner]

I don't disagree with much in there, but wasn't the question "what did he do wrong from day 1?" I asked because I would have thought you had specific things in mind that he did from day 1. You want someone with an "established identity of character, toughness mentally/physically, and are committed to playing defense." Please tell me, what coaches that have those characteristics would consider a job that is essentially a rebuild?

I understand that you aren't a Pitino fan, and there is a lack of results to back that up along with other facts why I someone might not be a fan, but you keep saying outlandish things and defend them with jibberish. I asked what he did wrong from day 1, you haven't responded with things he did/didn't do his first year or when he took over the program. What were those mistakes?

You have been asked this multiple times, before by me too, and you don't ever give concrete examples when asked about why you say things about specific points in his tenure. Then you say something about "everyone can choose their own standard," but seem to have none when it comes to using factual statements or observations to back up the specific statement you made. Once again I appreciate your insight, but this is why people attack you on here (most of the times taking it too far). If you are going to make these statements, have something to back it up that is talking about what Richard did. Not Bennett, Wisconsin, Fleck, Norwood or Coyle, those specifics really have little to do with what he has personally done in his tenure, or his ability to do it at a high level.

 

[theczar]

Strange that people who predicted the gophs to win 13 big ten games this year....now all of a sudden say he was never a good coach

 

[BarnBurner]

Strange that people who predicted the gophs to win 13 big ten games this year....now all of a sudden say he was never a good coach

 

[Gopher-in-Keno]

So that's a really interesting question but would be some pretty hefty research. I took one coach, Fran at Iowa to look at how he has done, since I think our program ought to do as well as them, and since he has faced some challenges.

He was hitting at about 50 percent for about three/four years years but since then, in the last 5 years almost all of his recruits have been effective players. The jury is out on Nunge because of injuries but Fran has had a lot of hits and because of it even this year with injuries he is at least able to go 8-9 deep without a problem.

As I look at our last three years I would say he is on the right track if Mashburn and Mitchell are as expected. This is just a crystal ball of how it might work out..... some role players and so far 1 star player and I think there are 2-3 more in the making (stars)
Oturu/Omersa/ Gabe 3 for 3
Ihnen/ Williams/ Freeman/Demir/ Greenlee 3 for 5
Mashburn/Mitchell 2 for 2

Thanks. I agree we should be able to keep pace with an Iowa or almost all the B1G teams in that respect except for maybe Mich St or maybe Ohio St. I know that would take a lot of research or someone that follows another program closely. Built, where does Wisconsin stand on this? How many recruiting misses do the Badgers have over the last several years?

 

[march madness]

Another question is why are a lot of our talented big high school players are not staying home to play with this team?
Why are they chosing the badgers and other teams: Marquette, Baylor. Iowa is full of Iowa players : Bohannon, Kriener, both McCaffery's, Wieskamp, thats a solid nucleus. Wisconsin is full of WI/MN players: Pritzl, Wahl, Anderson, Davidson, Reuvers, and next yr Carlson and Crowl. I think those two teams have a better starting point that we do. Not getting 1 or 2 minnesotans every couple of years, but always having 4-5 solid MN kids who can play. Asking hard questions even if the answer hurts.

 

[Bad Gopher]

The one thing notably missing in this history--and which could still be added in--is Akeem Springs. He transferred in the same year as Lynch, and in my opinion was the MVP of the team contributing both measureables and intangibles including leadership, discipline, character and toughness. He was like a coach on the floor, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him coaching some day.

It's good to look back for historical perspective. Considering the immediate successes he had at FIU and here in his first years both places, it's almost as though he thrives in scramble mode but has a hard time building a program for the long haul, including and especially succession and roster resiliency. The other thing distinctive about those consecutive first seasons: he ran his schemes the way he envisioned them, including pressure defense. He's evidently concluded that his preferred schemes are a poor fit for the nature of this league, so he's abandoned them, which has led almost predictably to confusion and lack of identity, or at least him and his staff trying to mimic other teams' and coaches' styles and, unsurprisingly, not as well as those other teams and coaches do. Considering the statements that he himself has made, he does seem to be perpetually unsure what he's trying to do and how to do it.

 

[bga1]

Strange that people who predicted the gophs to win 13 big ten games this year....now all of a sudden say he was never a good coach
[/

The one thing notably missing in this history--and which could still be added in--is Akeem Springs. He transferred in the same year as Lynch, and in my opinion was the MVP of the team contributing both measureables and intangibles including leadership, discipline, character and toughness. He was like a coach on the floor, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him coaching some day.

It's good to look back for historical perspective. Considering the immediate successes he had at FIU and here in his first years both places, it's almost as though he thrives in scramble mode but has a hard time building a program for the long haul, including and especially succession and roster resiliency. The other thing distinctive about those consecutive first seasons: he ran his schemes the way he envisioned them, including pressure defense. He's evidently concluded that his preferred schemes are a poor fit for the nature of this league, so he's abandoned them, which has led almost predictably to confusion and lack of identity, or at least him and his staff trying to mimic other teams' and coaches' styles and, unsurprisingly, not as well as those other teams and coaches do. Considering the statements that he himself has made, he does seem to be perpetually unsure what he's trying to do and how to do it.

Good catch! I forgot about Akeem. He had a good attitude and took the role that was needed.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Strange that people who predicted the gophs to win 13 big ten games this year....now all of a sudden say he was never a good coach

Isn't that actually logical?

If you think you have a good enough team to win 13 games and the result is this dumpster fire, wouldn't the conclusion be that your coach stinks?

 

[sal]

Add it up and you have 14 recruits that couldn't/ didn't contribute much for varying reasons and that is behind the serious depth issue Pitino has had. Over that time period you get perhaps 20-24 recruits to work with. You simply cannot survive on a less than 50/50 success ratio.

This. Add in the lack of traction with local kids and the perception of the programs trajectory just get worse. Even if you are losing some games, successful recruiting gives the fan base what they want, hope and the expectation that "it" is right around the corner.
With additional bad luck and trouble you have a recipe for getting fired.
Nice job on the post. I'm with you on Richard's tenure.

 

[golfing18now]

Another question is why are a lot of our talented big high school players are not staying home to play with this team?
Why are they chosing the badgers and other teams: Marquette, Baylor. Iowa is full of Iowa players : Bohannon, Kriener, both McCaffery's, Wieskamp, thats a solid nucleus. Wisconsin is full of WI/MN players: Pritzl, Wahl, Anderson, Davidson, Reuvers, and next yr Carlson and Crowl. I think those two teams have a better starting point that we do. Not getting 1 or 2 minnesotans every couple of years, but always having 4-5 solid MN kids who can play. Asking hard questions even if the answer hurts.

What is the appropriate number of Minnesota players on the team that would make people happy?

The team that went to the final four in 1996-1997 had 6 MN kids on the roster.

Last year's team had 5 MN kids on the roster, 7 if you include Jarvis Johnson and Brady Rudrud. This year's team has 5 MN kids on scholarship.

Not everybody grows up hoping to be a Gopher.

 

[skiumah1]

What is the appropriate number of Minnesota players on the team that would make people happy?

The team that went to the final four in 1996-1997 had 6 MN kids on the roster.

Last year's team had 5 MN kids on the roster, 7 if you include Jarvis Johnson and Brady Rudrud. This year's team has 5 MN kids on scholarship.

Not everybody grows up hoping to be a Gopher.

Takes a coach that can convince them to be though. That's what makes a good recruiter. I understand you can't win 'em all but you should hope to win the majority of those you target.

 

[golfing18now]

Isn't that actually logical?

If you think you have a good enough team to win 13 games and the result is this dumpster fire, wouldn't the conclusion be that your coach stinks?

Not trying to defend Pitino here but many of those same posters claim we have two B1G worthy players. Under that assumption, it's a miracle he wins 13 games overall, much less in the conference season. So we like his recruiting but hate how he coaches? Or do we not like his recruiting, as was indicated throughout the majority of this thread? You don't win 13 games in conference with only two players.

 

[theczar]

Isn't that actually logical?

If you think you have a good enough team to win 13 games and the result is this dumpster fire, wouldn't the conclusion be that your coach stinks?

Actually common sense dictates that the prior six seasons were more than an adequate sample to form an opinion on Pitino....Therefore considering the past six seasons and the loss of 2 star players projecting 13 wins would be a shout out to his coaching acumen .. and this season would be function of bad luck, poor free throw shooting , lack of talent/depth ...rather than a chronic inability to coach

 

[golfing18now]

Takes a coach that can convince them to be though. That's what makes a good recruiter. I understand you can't win 'em all but you should hope to win the majority of those you target.

Right....but if there is no bias to wearing maroon and gold, then that recruit is like anybody else. It does become a sales pitch. I get that. But that is no different than a kid that doesn't have a MN zip code. I know I'm in the minority here, but recruiting kids from MN isn't the only problem. It's not the biggest problem, in my opinion. As BGA very nicely summarized, we have had too many strike outs in recruiting, not enough home runs, and frankly not enough solid (singles/doubles) big ten players.

 

[skiumah1]

Right....but if there is no bias to wearing maroon and gold, then that recruit is like anybody else. It does become a sales pitch. I get that. But that is no different than a kid that doesn't have a MN zip code. I know I'm in the minority here, but recruiting kids from MN isn't the only problem. It's not the biggest problem, in my opinion. As BGA very nicely summarized, we have had too many strike outs in recruiting, not enough home runs, and frankly not enough solid (singles/doubles) big ten players.

Agreed. Don't you think the lack of development has a lot to do with recruits not panning out as well though? Seems like other coaches, not all, just develop guys even if they're not high recruits, but giving them expectations and pushing them. I think Omersa and Tre Williams were good examples with this years team that I would've given them some more time. Work through mistakes and make 'em get better because you need them. And they're capable. Feed them confidence. Carr is dying at the end of games, and those minutes needed to be distributed throughout the rest of the roster.
It's always easy from the outside, but when you're not winning it just doesn't work.

Also even if they aren't big gopher fans, with all things equal you do have the geographical advantage and at least a small leg up on everybody else. It's not easy when you're recruiting against the best but that's what's needed.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Actually common sense dictates that the prior six seasons were more than an adequate sample to form an opinion on Pitino....Therefore considering the past six seasons and the loss of 2 star players projecting 13 wins would be a shout out to his coaching acumen .. and this season would be function of bad luck, poor free throw shooting , lack of talent/depth ...rather than a chronic inability to coach

I would hope everyone's opinion would be fluid. I was a Pitino fan after season 1 and I think we should move on from him now. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. My opinion on him has changed because of additional pieces of data.

Likewise, if we win the Big 10 tournament and then go on to make a run in the NCAA, I will gladly eat crow on this forum.

So we've had six meh seasons prior to this year. We had our ups and downs. If someone thought we had a good team coming into this year and thought we were capable of winning 13 Big 10 games, I think that person would likely think they overestimated a couple of things: (1) our talent; (2) coaching ability. Both of those issues fall squarely on Pitino's shoulders.

I really would hope people would not come to the conclusion that a 13 loss team turns into a dumpster fire because of bad luck.

 

[bga1]

Isn't that actually logical?

If you think you have a good enough team to win 13 games and the result is this dumpster fire, wouldn't the conclusion be that your coach stinks?

The dirty little secret is that built badgers never thought it was a 13 win team unless Bennett, Bo Ryan or John Wooden coached them. It was always a set up so that he could whack the legs out of him at the end of the year. This was a team that would have won 6 if everything went wrong and could have won 12-13 games if everything went right.

This team has two really good players. A third that I think is a really good player but is having a bad year and two more who just are not Big Ten starters but could be good depth. That's not 13 wins in the Big Ten. Coffey and a less athletic Curry than we saw as a frosh could have made this team a 13 win team- maybe.

I have liked a lot of what I have seen of this team but they never had any margin for error. Too many errors - missed bunnies, missed free throws, missed open threes have been statistically too frequent. It's not just one guy, it seems like it is the same thing by a different player or two each game that costs us.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The dirty little secret is that built badgers never thought it was a 13 win team unless Bennett, Bo Ryan or John Wooden coached them. It was always a set up so that he could whack the legs out of him at the end of the year. This was a team that would have won 6 if everything went wrong and could have won 12-13 games if everything went right.

This team has two really good players. A third that I think is a really good player but is having a bad year and two more who just are not Big Ten starters but could be good depth. That's not 13 wins in the Big Ten. Coffey and a less athletic Curry than we saw as a frosh could have made this team a 13 win team- maybe.

I agree with that! I never thought this was a team that would win 13 games in the Big Ten.

I also expected Oturu to improve, but probably not this much.

 

[golfing18now]

Agreed. Don't you think the lack of development has a lot to do with recruits not panning out as well though? Seems like other coaches, not all, just develop guys even if they're not high recruits, but giving them expectations and pushing them. I think Omersa and Tre Williams were good examples with this years team that I would've given them some more time. Work through mistakes and make 'em get better because you need them. And they're capable. Feed them confidence. Carr is dying at the end of games, and those minutes needed to be distributed throughout the rest of the roster.
It's always easy from the outside, but when you're not winning it just doesn't work.

Also even if they aren't big gopher fans, with all things equal you do have the geographical advantage and at least a small leg up on everybody else. It's not easy when you're recruiting against the best but that's what's needed.

Your first point is a good one. I've struggled myself with trying to determine whether or not the development is taking place from this coaching staff. The best example is IW. But on the flip side is Oturu. None of us probably envisioned IW working out as poorly as he did but I don't think many of us thought Oturu would be a lottery pick after this year. Does Pitino deserve only blame for IW and no credit for Oturu? Or is it on the players in both cases? I don't know. I'm starting to believe it is more of a systems thing, a culture thing, or maybe a poor job by this coaching staff.

On the second point, I'm not so sure. My first daughter is a third year college student at the University of Minnesota. There is a zero per cent chance she would have ended up at the U of M if she could have had a free ride elsewhere. My second daughter will be a freshman next year and there is a zero per cent chance she would want to go to school far away even with a free ride. In both cases, money played a significant factor in the decision for my kids. It wouldn't play a factor for any of these basketball players. So why do we assume their own desires would be any different than the non-D1 19 year old?

 

[WilliamsArenaGuy]

The dirty little secret is that built badgers never thought it was a 13 win team unless Bennett, Bo Ryan or John Wooden coached them. It was always a set up so that he could whack the legs out of him at the end of the year. This was a team that would have won 6 if everything went wrong and could have won 12-13 games if everything went right.

This team has two really good players. A third that I think is a really good player but is having a bad year and two more who just are not Big Ten starters but could be good depth. That's not 13 wins in the Big Ten. Coffey and a less athletic Curry than we saw as a frosh could have made this team a 13 win team- maybe.

After watching the season play out, I definitely think they could have gone 13-7. I didn't expect it coming in because there were so many unknowns. I had no idea what we could accomplish until they started playing and I could see it with my eyes. Look at all the close games and FT disasters. If Wisconsin can be tied for first in the BT right now, we could have gone 13-7. I wasn't against Pitino until the Iowa game. I honestly believe he is just not good enough. We'd know by now if he was. He is not inspiring anyone: fans, recruits, players. They are coached in a way that they are mentally weak at the end of games and find ways to lose. That is not new this year. I was a fan for a long time. I made a lot of excuses for him. But it's over. If Coyle doesn't move on, I will be disappointed. It is not going to end well if he comes back. I see it being a carbon copy of what happened with Monson his last two years.

 

[skiumah1]

Your first point is a good one. I've struggled myself with trying to determine whether or not the development is taking place from this coaching staff. The best example is IW. But on the flip side is Oturu. None of us probably envisioned IW working out as poorly as he did but I don't think many of us thought Oturu would be a lottery pick after this year. Does Pitino deserve only blame for IW and no credit for Oturu? Or is it on the players in both cases? I don't know. I'm starting to believe it is more of a systems thing, a culture thing, or maybe a poor job by this coaching staff.

On the second point, I'm not so sure. My first daughter is a third year college student at the University of Minnesota. There is a zero per cent chance she would have ended up at the U of M if she could have had a free ride elsewhere. My second daughter will be a freshman next year and there is a zero per cent chance she would want to go to school far away even with a free ride. In both cases, money played a significant factor in the decision for my kids. It wouldn't play a factor for any of these basketball players. So why do we assume their own desires would be any different than the non-D1 19 year old?

I hear ya. This just makes me think the coach has to really develop relationships with these kids, or have assistants that are able to develop these relationships. I think that goes along way. I think I'm probably talking more about the kids that are more up in the air about where they want to go. I know there are kids who just say they're going 500 miles away because that's what they want. I would also say that don't you think kids at that age have a mind that's easily adjusted based on who they interact with (coaches), how much they like them, and what that coach can convince them? I'm not saying this is true for all, or maybe not even most, just making that suggestion.

 

[theczar]

Monson's players did not play hard and did not respect him as a coach in his final season

 

[builtbadgers]

Thanks. I agree we should be able to keep pace with an Iowa or almost all the B1G teams in that respect except for maybe Mich St or maybe Ohio St. I know that would take a lot of research or someone that follows another program closely. Built, where does Wisconsin stand on this? How many recruiting misses do the Badgers have over the last several years?

several but they target fewer as they know what they are looking for. Follow UVA and they miss a lot on guys they wanted but their 2nd tier and 3rd tier guys work out great as they target a very specific profile. Even priority recruits were under the radar as they have as keen of a eye as you will find anywhere. The data is out there, who did you get, what did they do, and how much did they win ?