Kill is running against wind guys.

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akgopher said:
Madison had some advantages that made the conditions for their program blossoming more possible. It was more of an untapped resource, rather than a miracle. Alvarez and Shalala saw it and executed the vision.

Because of that, I don't think Madison is an appropriate model for the University to follow. I think Northwestern or the past success and present momentum at Washington are more appropriate.
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What advantages did Madison have? The U is a huge untapped resource. 4th (or so) largest university in the country.
 

Mngoph79 said:
Coach Kill is 20-months into the process of turning around a program that the so called experts considered a basket case. So a 17-year old kid decides to head elsewhere. Should anyone be surprised when a 17-year old demonstrates youthful decision making skills?

The important questions are:

1) Are coach Kill and his staff competent?
2) Do they have a plan for moving Minnesota football forward?
3) How does this evolve? Is it like a light switch where most everything turns our way at once or is it a process that takes time?

It gets tiring reading the ADD post from people expecting overnight miracles. And a lot of such posts are from folks who have substantial front-line football experience (at least they describe themselves as such). But may such people apparently never learned the basics of organizational leadership and coaching. Such skills are very rare, involve hard work and it take time to implement. A lot of time.

If after a few years we haven’t seen meaningful progress, then it’s time to be asking if we have the right staff in place. But if you’re a true fan, look a bit deeper into what’s going on and hold off on the negativity. My opinion is we are very fortunate to have Coach Kill leading the Gopher football program and I can’t wait for the season to begin.
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+1
 

Are we really throwing in the towel because 1 kid jumped ship verbally? C'mon, men, buck up. I am looking forward to this football season.
 

FreakyDeke said:
What advantages did Madison have? The U is a huge untapped resource. 4th (or so) largest university in the country.
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The problem with that stat - and it's not just you who cites it - is that the U's undergraduate enrollment is about middle of the pack for the B1G. Per Wikipedia:

Undergraduate Enrollment:
1. Ohio State 43,000
2. Penn State 39,000
3. Michigan State 37,000
4. Indiana 33,000
5. Illinois 32,000
6. Purdue 31,000
6. Minnesota 31,000
8. Wisconsin 29,000
9. Michigan 27,000
10. Iowa 21,000
11. Nebraska 19,000
12. Northwestern 8,500

So while yes, the U is a huuuge school a large proportion of that comes from graduate students who - for a large portion - don't care about the sports. The undergraduates are where the lifeblood of student support comes from.
 

FreakyDeke said:
What advantages did Madison have? The U is a huge untapped resource. 4th (or so) largest university in the country.
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-Campus, campus, campus.
-Mifflin Street Block Party, Halloween, etc
-Possibly the nicest mid-sized city in the nation
-Great alumni connections in Chicago
-The biggest game in town
-A true college town- student engagement

Two years ago, I walked around Dinkytown with my daughter on a Saturday evening after a football game, the night before Halloween and it was dead a sprinkle of students lingering in packs. The student section at the game was 1/2 full and the campus was dead. The one night of fun at the University is homecoming night- that is if you are in a frat or sorority.

In fairness, the additions of apartment buildings during the past 15 years has helped exponentially. I don't know how they got a non-hockey player recruit here in the 80's and 90's.
 


Gopher07 said:
The problem with that stat - and it's not just you who cites it - is that the U's undergraduate enrollment is about middle of the pack for the B1G. Per Wikipedia:

Undergraduate Enrollment:
1. Ohio State 43,000
2. Penn State 39,000
3. Michigan State 37,000
4. Indiana 33,000
5. Illinois 32,000
6. Purdue 31,000
6. Minnesota 31,000
8. Wisconsin 29,000
9. Michigan 27,000
10. Iowa 21,000
11. Nebraska 19,000
12. Northwestern 8,500

So while yes, the U is a huuuge school a large proportion of that comes from graduate students who - for a large portion - don't care about the sports. The undergraduates are where the lifeblood of student support comes from.
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And how many of those students are living in apartments in Roseville, Richfield, or other parts of the metro? Housing options near campus has improved, but it is still not near where it needs to be to create a college experience.
 

Dean S said:
Are we really throwing in the towel because 1 kid jumped ship verbally? C'mon, men, buck up. I am looking forward to this football season.
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You're right, let's win some games and see who comes on official visits before making final judgement on this years recruiting class.

Hopefully we win all 4 non-conference games beat NW, Purdue and retain Floyd then be competitive against the likes of Wisky, MSU, Nebraska and Michigan (optimistically hoping for an upset here) and we're BOWLING.

The optimist in me says we win 8 but my realistic expectations are 7 wins!
 

I'm seeing the bottom- perfect storm of injuries, bad luck, etc is 4 wins
I think the ceiling- running 4-0 in non-conference and 3-5 conference with a lower tier bowl win is 8.

Realistically, I predict 6-7 or 7-6 depending on bowl outcome.
 

youngstowngopher said:
I'm sick of these people who think the pyramids were built in the same time frame that the Amish put up barns.
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Who are these people? I didn't get a response from the first person so I'll ask you. This is such an empty straw man. The patience among the people on this board is incredible. Kill was 3-9 last year, but the vast majority of posts on this board are overwhelmingly positive, and those that aren't usually go to great lengths to explain that they like Kill, but that he has a lot of large forces working against him. We are so well programmed to expect nothing that our patience is almost a negative at this point.

I don't think I have EVER seen anyone suggest that Kill should be seriously competing in the Big Ten next year.
 



Here are the 2 reasons I am excited about what could be with Kill in charge:
1. Their offense is built to gain yardage and score whereas Brew installed an offense to recruit.
2 Their defense seems to have a plan; put pressure on the QB and stop the run. This is an idea that neither Mason or Brew came close to realizing. Mason's main defensive goal was his offense running the ball and the clock down where his defense didn't have to be on the field.

Heck I will even add a 3rd;
3. Norwood Teague and KFAN. I truly believe these two additions will pay dividends down the road and in some ways usher in a 'different' look to the programs. Imagine 15 years down the road and somehow through Teagues leadership we become the program with the best facilities in the Big Ten. With the new leadership in all aspects of the athletic department anything really is possible.
 

The facilities question is a big one. I feel like we're behind the 8-ball now though, and by the time we catch up to what other schools have, they'll be moving on to bigger and better things. Closing that gap will - in my opinion - take a T. Boone Pickens-esque donor to step up and say, this is how it's going to be. I don't think the Gophers have anyone that will do that. If Teague can rustle up that person though, he will be a godsend to the athletic department.
 

Let's be honest. When a recruit makes a game-day visit to Madison, he sees an entire city devoted to one event - Badger FB. He sees tailgating, a packed student section, chanting and cheering, the 5th quarter, etc. You can understand how a recruit sees all that, and visualizes himself in that scene.

Now, on the other hand, when a recruit makes a game-day visit to Mpls, he sees a city where large sections of the populace don't know there's a FB game, or don't care. He sees limited or scattered tailgating, a half-full student section, plenty of empty seats, and a fan base that is skewing older and (shall we say) less energetic than most college FB crowds. And, if that recruit happens to tune in one of the local radio stations, he's likely to hear Reusse, Eric Nelson, or someone else ripping the Gopher FB program.

Is it any wonder that a 17-year, impressionable kid would choose WI over MN given all of that?

Yes, winning will help, but the U MUST find a way to change the game-day atmosphere.
 

Wow. More mob behavior on the boards today. Ornie, get a life. Minnesota football has good game day atmosphere. We do it here differently. Instead of spending an entire day grilling, drinking and playing board games outside of the stadium, we get in and we get out.

In my minds eye, I don't remember seeing too many empty seats.

Sept. 10 New Mexico State 48,807
Sept. 17 Miami (Ohio) 49,950
Sept. 24 North Dakota State 48,802
Oct. 22 Nebraska 49,187
Oct. 29 Iowa 46,543
Nov. 12 Wisconsin 49,158

Missing date at the end of the season.

No sell outs, but good numbers. These will rise again. I, for one, will be attending games.

Now, I must stop reading and watch the Prudential employee benefits challenge ad.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
Let's be honest. When a recruit makes a game-day visit to Madison, he sees an entire city devoted to one event - Badger FB. He sees tailgating, a packed student section, chanting and cheering, the 5th quarter, etc. You can understand how a recruit sees all that, and visualizes himself in that scene.
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The student section in Wisconsin can't even bother to show up on time for a Big Ten winning team. It's patently absurd to compare the two teams in fan support and attribute it to anything but winning.

Also, I teach in Wisconsin, and outside of Madison, a large % of the state only gives a *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# about the Packers.
 

What was the game-day atmosphere before Alvarez was hired?
 

RodentRampage said:
What was the game-day atmosphere before Alvarez was hired?
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Don't know from personal experience. I had friends who went over to Madison for a game and said it was an absolute drunken orgy in the stands, but that was long ago. They didn't tell me if the place was packed. They just everyone who was in the stadium was loaded.

As to the original post, like everyone here, I'm disappointed with Brookins' decision, but there are going to be more decisions like the one that Brookins made. Kids want to leave for other destinations now in a way they didn't in previous eras. A lot of guidance counselors (and coaches) urge student/athletes to be comprehensive in their assessment of their college options. UW-Madison is a good school. Only game in town. Nice college feel to the place. Solid football program (Ooops. Just threw up in my mouth a little.). If that fits for him. Great.

Kill is going to need all five years and unlike Brewster, I don't think he'll wear out his welcome midway through his contract. I don't know if Kill is "different," like one recent thread contended. One place where I don't want him to be "different" is in dedication to building a winning program and everything he's shown me is that he'll build a solid program here or "die (not literally) trying." He's organized, committed, and has an idea of what he's doing. The question is whether his tools will transfer from MAC-level to FBS-level. That's going to take some time, so let's sit back and enjoy and assess the progress.

I'm optimistic.
 

Nope you don't see tailgating at Camp Randall. get a brat across the street at the corner of Breese and Regent but no tailgating.
 

RodentRampage said:
What was the game-day atmosphere before Alvarez was hired?
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Madison is not a fair comparison. The structure was in place there. It is a college with a historically activist student body. Talk to anyone who has played hockey in the WCHA. They hate playing there with those fans. Alvarez saw that, even Mariucci is flooded with adults and not imposing.

It wasn't about game day experience. The infrastructure was in place, great town, amazing campus, famously activist student body.

The U is non of those, thus making Wisconsin an inappropriate model to follow.
 


Killjoy said:
Well to name one how about Rosemountain?
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Rosemountain has a generally negative tone, but I've never seen anything that suggests he has unrealistic expectations. Far from it, in fact.
 

If Wisconsin had hired Wacker, and Minnesota had hired Alvarez, this discussion would be completely different. Before Alvarez was hired, Minnesota and Wisconsin's situations looked very similar. The difference was the hires. It probably was a mistake to fire Stoll, he gave the Gophers their last 6-win big ten season, and was 4-4 in his last three seasons, which was the last time the Gophers have had three consecutive non-losing Big Ten seasons. That error was compounded by hiring Joe Salem. Salem did well at the D-II level, but was over his head. The U was overly swayed by his being a former Gophers. After Holtz pulled the Gophers out of the ditch, Gutekunst was only able to keep the Gophers more or less at the same mediocre level.

Then there was the Wacker era, the worst stretch for Gopher football. Wacker had a losing record as a D-I coach. The Gophers didn't have a winning season in the years between 1991 and 1998, and Wacker never won more than 5 games. Then there was the Brewster gamble, that a coach with no experience as a head coach or as a coordinator could turn recruit is way into success. It didn't work.

It wasn't at all obvious before Alvarez was hired which team would do better. The difference is a series of mistaken hires made by Minnesota.
 

Question is would Alvarez taken the job here? Holtz cautioned him against Wisconsin, but he saw potential. The U hasn't has a Shalala at the helm either.
 

50PoundHead said:
I don't know if Kill is "different," like one recent thread contended. One place where I don't want him to be "different" is in dedication to building a winning program and everything he's shown me is that he'll build a solid program here or "die (not literally) trying."
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I think what Killjoy was saying (and correct me if I'm wrong, Killjoy) is that Kill is different from most in that he has a very clear idea of where he wants to be, the vision/experience/capabilities to get there, and the unwillingness to compromise on his basic principles to do so. Finding all 3 of those attributes in the same coach is very difficult, and if Kill really does possess all 3 (and I think he does), we could be in for a special run. Brewster's biggest problem is that he wanted to be a winning head coach, but had no idea how to get there. I can think of several other recent examples, notably Charlie Weis. I think Weis will be surprisingly good at Kansas because he's learned what not to do from his ND experience. I think Brewster would be very good if he's ever given another chance at a HC job. Kill has had almost two decades' worth of learning what to do and what not to do. If it takes a little longer to "get there" doing it his way than it does the "conventional" way - then he's going to take a little longer to "get there".
 

His resume was no overwhelming when he was hired. 2 years as a DC, and about 8 years as a LB coach. He may well have taken this job if he was offered it. I don't think the Wisconsin job was seen as a higher profile than the Minnesota job. The potential was about equal, the available local talent was similar.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I think what Killjoy was saying (and correct me if I'm wrong, Killjoy) is that Kill is different from most in that he has a very clear idea of where he wants to be, the vision/experience/capabilities to get there, and the unwillingness to compromise on his basic principles to do so. Finding all 3 of those attributes in the same coach is very difficult, and if Kill really does possess all 3 (and I think he does), we could be in for a special run. Brewster's biggest problem is that he wanted to be a winning head coach, but had no idea how to get there. I can think of several other recent examples, notably Charlie Weis. I think Weis will be surprisingly good at Kansas because he's learned what not to do from his ND experience. I think Brewster would be very good if he's ever given another chance at a HC job. Kill has had almost two decades' worth of learning what to do and what not to do. If it takes a little longer to "get there" doing it his way than it does the "conventional" way - then he's going to take a little longer to "get there".
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I may have misread that thread or went in with a pre-conceived notion of what was trying to be said given the Penn State scandal.

Good call on the Weis/Brewster comparison. Two pro guys who were used to having players in need of less teaching. I don't break out in hives like some do in here whenever Brewster's name is mentioned and I agree he would do a better job the second time around. Curious if he'll ever get that chance. His behavior seemed so erratic during his last season that it may be a red flag.

And I agree on Kill and it's why I am willing to be very patient (and I was patient with Brewster). He does have an idea of what he wants to do and I think he knows how to get there. He is just going to need to land some talent at the skilled positions. I am so old I remember when Bob Devaney (followed by Tom Osborne) built the Nebraska program. Big corn-fed lineman, lots of teachable speed on defense, and a couple of big-time skilled position players. Don't make mistakes and never lose the physical battle. I don't discount star ratings, but I've always thought that stars are more valuable when attached to QBs, RBs, and WRs as opposed to other positions.

Should be interesting.

As for the change in Brookins' decision, I'm still ticked that Rochester's Maury Daigneau chose Northwestern over the Gophers back in the late-1960s.
 

Brewster doesn't seem to have the mental makeup or football knowledge to be a successful head coach at the BCS level, but if I were starting a college staff he'd be one of my first hires as a TE coach/recruiting coordinator.
 

Starting with Malcolm Moos the U made a deliberate decision that football was not a priority. Football was just something they had to put up with having around. That attitude has just recently changed. I belief the Regents received enough outside pressure to decide it was time the program could be turned around. The legislature followed suit in approving TCF. It was a Minnesota mental thing and it will take time to recover from it. It is turning around and Kill is the right guy at the right time. We will compete no later then when Kill's first class are seniors RS juniors. We will see real improvement in the team this year even if the record isn't turned around.
 

The U can't keep firing coaches either. Kill is a football coach, just like Mason was a football coach. Unlike Mason, Kill has a personality that people respond positively to and doesn't have an ego that turns people off. Lock in and give him the same security Tubby Smith enjoys without great accomplishments and hope he gets it done.
 

dpodoll

dpodoll68 said:
I think what Killjoy was saying (and correct me if I'm wrong, Killjoy) is that Kill is different from most in that he has a very clear idea of where he wants to be, the vision/experience/capabilities to get there, and the unwillingness to compromise on his basic principles to do so. Finding all 3 of those attributes in the same coach is very difficult, and if Kill really does possess all 3 (and I think he does), we could be in for a special run. Brewster's biggest problem is that he wanted to be a winning head coach, but had no idea how to get there. I can think of several other recent examples, notably Charlie Weis. I think Weis will be surprisingly good at Kansas because he's learned what not to do from his ND experience. I think Brewster would be very good if he's ever given another chance at a HC job. Kill has had almost two decades' worth of learning what to do and what not to do. If it takes a little longer to "get there" doing it his way than it does the "conventional" way - then he's going to take a little longer to "get there".
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You pretty much summed up why I think Coach Kill is different. The problem is that people often believe that by saying that I am crowning him as the savior of the program. That is not my intention. I am just trying to point out that he has these attributes. I wish that was enough to guarantee that he is going to turn the program around but it isn't.

Personally, I feel better about his chances of turning the program around knowing that he has these attributes. The reality is that it is going to take time, patience, and luck for this to happen. It also might just take Jerry Kill to do it.
 

akgopher said:
Madison had some advantages that made the conditions for their program blossoming more possible. It was more of an untapped resource, rather than a miracle. Alvarez and Shalala saw it and executed the vision.

Because of that, I don't think Madison is an appropriate model for the University to follow. I think Northwestern or the past success and present momentum at Washington are more appropriate.
Click to expand...

Is this a joke? Northwestern?
 

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