I've Seen Enough

[CPTMidnight]

Well, that's what you want him to do, so he must not be doing it.

I'm wondering how you know he's not doing it?

Maybe you could relate to some other big 10 teams. What are they doing that we are not in terms of having a vision?

Who in big 10 basketball has a "row the boat" motto or vision like that? I'm thinking none!

I did say that he is doing it. Am also saying that I have not seen it communicated in a tight cohesive format which was overly compelling. This is an area that builds over time. Fleck has turned this into an art form he is marketing on such a high level.

Everyone can get better, why not Pitino?

Here is my take on Izzo in an overly-simplified way.

Come in, be a part of my personal family Lupe and I. I treat all my the players as a part of it. We dont look for "one and done's" - if that is you we are not interested. I am painfully honest with my kids. If you come here you will find me a very warm person that genuinely looks the best for you both personally and on the court - my former players still call me for advice. I am also a hard coach - you will find me to be very passionate and unrelenting in getting you to the next level. We have a winning tradition and if you come here you can expect to win and be on the public stage every year. Essentially he gets to say - Im the best coach and you will be on the best team and have the best experience and be the best person in the future. Obviously style of play and playing time are important as they are everywhere.

This is "Frontal approach" sales and is powerful stuff for some. They are easily overcome with a "flanking" type strategy which focuses on specifics non negotiable opportunities which will be attractive to a slice of the demographic. Frankly, I have the experience on the sales and marketing side to break it down on a granular level for you, I just don't have the time. If you don't believe that a better tighter communications and sales strategy gets more recruits - so be it...

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

To me, the best coaches demand a defense that wins games when shots are not falling. We have a 48th ranked defense. We have been top 25th one year in 7. I talked about a identity, not a vision. We are not known as anything. MSU is a elite program, they get better players, they get guys that can rebound and outlet and secondary break, those last two are very refined skills. They push it on opportunity because they have the skill. They have also had for decades a physical and mental toughness that he recruits to.A vision is something you can tell a recruit how you see him being used. A identity is something players already know about a program and have a attraction for. I do like this roster and the players but they should not be 12-12. The conference is brutal but it does not have a dominant team and every game is there for the taking.

The only real identity you keep preaching over and over on here defense, usually along the lines of your love affair with Wisconsin and Virginia, and now MSU. The years those teams have been really good are the years their offense was as good or better than their defense. I've said before on here I think 'identity' is an overrated term as very few teams have an identity that differs significantly from others. Wisconsin's and Virginia's are two of those teams because they always play defense, but an incredibly slow and boring brand of offense. I would like to know what the identity of each of these teams are and how they recruit to them:

Baylor
Gonzaga
Duke
Kansas
Kentucky
Maryland
Villanova
UNC

 

[justthefacts]

False. Michigan state has always played this game. They push the ball hard and always have. The difference is they play solid defense and have a foundation of being one of the best rebounding teams in the Big Ten.

That said. I agree with you. Playing good defense, rebounding hard and not giving away possessions is the best way to win in this conference. It helps to have some shooters too. I am not sure why more emphasis isn't placed on bringing in a few guys that can make it rain every year. Every team needs a JJ Reddick type that if they are open it is going down. Don't have to be as talented as he is, but when an open 3 is there, we need a few guys that can knock it down at a high rate.

MSU's adjusted tempo ranking by year:

2020: 97
2019: 200
2018: 238
2017: 245
2016: 247
2015: 229
2014: 190
2013: 245
2012: 189
2011: 170

So this is the first season in the last 10 that MSU has been in the top half of the country in fastest pace. They were basically the consensus pick to lead the conference, and were #1 in the AP overall. They're currently in a 3 way tie for 3rd and they're closer to 12th than they are to 1st

MSU has the #1 defense in conference play according to both Adjusted Efficiency and Effective FG%.

The only conference team in the top decile for pace nationally is Nebraska.

 

[Go Gophs]

The only real identity you keep preaching over and over on here defense, usually along the lines of your love affair with Wisconsin and Virginia, and now MSU. The years those teams have been really good are the years their offense was as good or better than their defense. I've said before on here I think 'identity' is an overrated term as very few teams have an identity that differs significantly from others. Wisconsin's and Virginia's are two of those teams because they always play defense, but an incredibly slow and boring brand of offense. I would like to know what the identity of each of these teams are and how they recruit to them:

Baylor
Gonzaga
Duke
Kansas
Kentucky
Maryland
Villanova
UNC

Pay off your players. That's pretty much all those programs are successful. Maybe one or two that don't. The rest, for sure.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

You can talk about "identity" and "vision." I prefer to use the word "style."

And to me, style should be self-evident. If you watch a team play 2 or 3 teams, it should be fairly obvious what their style of play is. Do they try to run and jack up 3's? Do they pound the ball into the post? Do they use every second of the shot clock, or put up quick shots? Do they do the little things - set good screens, block out, go hard to the glass? Do they run the same defense all game, or mix things up - throw in some traps and presses?

In short, when you watch a team, you should be able to discern their style. As God is my witness, I cannot tell you what the Gophers' style is. At times, it looks like they are making it up on the spot.

AND - if a team does not have a clearly evident style, then it makes it that much harder to recruit players who fit their style. In a perfect world, a program should have a blueprint - we want a PG who can do this.....We want a SG who can do this.....We want a post who can do this.... And then you recruit players who fit the blueprint. You know, like Wisconsin did under Bo. and it worked. they won.

if I am Coyle, I am putting a short list of candidates together - assuming he doesn't already have one.

 

[Bad Gopher]

He's done well at Wright State. I don't see him wowing a lot of our local recruits though and he's no spring chicken anymore. Still I wouldn't hate it. He's sort of in the Ben Jacobsen category. He could have moved up from SDSU a long time ago but chose not to. Now it sort of feels too late.

Having seen college recruiting first hand (my daughter), I can say that the first step to wowing recruits is wowing their high school coaches with your coaching ability and the way your team plays. When you have the respect of their coach, that's a very important foot in the door. I can't verify this, not being in the middle of it, but I get the feeling that a major factor in Richard not getting serious play with the top recruits in the area is that the local coaching community isn't sold on him as a coach and program manager.

 

[bga1]

What are the identities of the Big Ten teams?
There are only a few teams I can really readily say what their identity is:
MSU- tough, talented defend and get out on the break
Wisconsin- slow plodding control the tempo with less talent but good shooters
Iowa- get as many scorers on the floor as possible and let them shoot

That's it for consistent identities I can think of. The rest seem to change with the players they get.

Purdue used to be the toughest team in the league under Keady but not as much any more. They are different this year than last year with Edwards and the other kid that could fill it up.

 

[builtbadgers]

The only real identity you keep preaching over and over on here defense, usually along the lines of your love affair with Wisconsin and Virginia, and now MSU. The years those teams have been really good are the years their offense was as good or better than their defense. I've said before on here I think 'identity' is an overrated term as very few teams have an identity that differs significantly from others. Wisconsin's and Virginia's are two of those teams because they always play defense, but an incredibly slow and boring brand of offense. I would like to know what the identity of each of these teams are and how they recruit to them:

Baylor
Gonzaga
Duke
Kansas
Kentucky
Maryland
Villanova
UNC

Your listing a ton of elite winners that have national brands. That is who i am trying to beat another way. Villanova was built very much along the lines of the way UVA and UW followed. Texas Tech is built this way. Check out Bob Knights methods when he could not get UNC or UCLA TALENT. What exactly has Baylor won, plus they are shady. Check out the pace of play for Michigan UNDER JB. Your entitled to think UVA and UW are boring, their games sell out, get huge TV ratings, huge donations, win multiple conference titles, get to the final 4 and in UVA's case win it all. I will take that kind of boring. Their identity goes far deeper than defense. There is a poise and dignity to it. Watch what Pitino Sr. says about it. He loves UVA. Jerry West would not miss a game for what can be gleaned. Watching them now can be painful, they shoot it far worse than we do but every single kid that came in knew what was required,it is the program DNA and that package brings them to 17-7 with a horrible offense. It sustains them in a year losing 3 early NBA guys and allows for this freshman class and the next two for more championship runs. I mention programs we could be, that we could model. Those coaches in those programs would have won huge here. I am not fighting you on this. Your entitled your opinion as i am entitled mine. Not for one moment do i think my opinion is more powerful, more important. Each person can read, ignore, agree or disagree with part or all of every post.

 

[howeda7]

I know it's taboo, but could we go after the Rutgers coach or would Kevin Warren rain down pain upon us?

 

[leftyslefty]

Pitino's last chance was yesterday. Let's move on.

 

[builtbadgers]

Pitino's last chance was yesterday. Let's move on.

He was given extra time and this season deserves to play out. In my opinion we need to support the staff and the team to the end. If it ends poorly i will name guys i think are better that would take the job. For now this is his team, a team i cheer for.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I really like Pitino and really want him to do well. But I'm just tired of games like yesterday. It's just inexcusable in a big game at home to only get up 2 shots in the final 5+ minutes. I'm not going to say they should or shouldn't fire him, but I'll say I wouldn't be upset if they did.

 

[USAF]

2 things that I don't think can be disputed nor do I think you would
1. He is improving
2. His initial vision was not workable and he has changed it- I think that's laudable.

I am looking at the coach he is becoming, not the whole 7 years, because, face it he wasn't ready for this. There was nothing going in his favor when he accepted this job. It was too tough of a job for a kid 31 years old with one year of D1 experience. That said I think he is a much better coach than the one we hired, but he still needs a little better players in a few spots.

You like this roster and in fact you have said that you like how it is put together. None of us could have expected that Gabe and Willis would have shot his badly in the Big Ten. That's the difference maker. I don't have my finger on the exact stats right at the moment but the team is shooting 28% in Big Ten play from 3 point range and I have to believe both Gabe and Willis are at or below that number which is unreal considering their ability to shoot it. Gabe especially is missing wide open shots and sometimes badly.

It cant be disputed that Pitino is improving??

In what way?

 

[tikited]

It cant be disputed that Pitino is improving??

In what way?

I'm confused by that as well. What has been improved?

 

[WHB Brewer]

You can talk about "identity" and "vision." I prefer to use the word "style."

And to me, style should be self-evident. If you watch a team play 2 or 3 teams, it should be fairly obvious what their style of play is. Do they try to run and jack up 3's? Do they pound the ball into the post? Do they use every second of the shot clock, or put up quick shots? Do they do the little things - set good screens, block out, go hard to the glass? Do they run the same defense all game, or mix things up - throw in some traps and presses?

In short, when you watch a team, you should be able to discern their style. As God is my witness, I cannot tell you what the Gophers' style is. At times, it looks like they are making it up on the spot.

AND - if a team does not have a clearly evident style, then it makes it that much harder to recruit players who fit their style. In a perfect world, a program should have a blueprint - we want a PG who can do this.....We want a SG who can do this.....We want a post who can do this.... And then you recruit players who fit the blueprint. You know, like Wisconsin did under Bo. and it worked. they won.

if I am Coyle, I am putting a short list of candidates together - assuming he doesn't already have one.

this is my issue also. after 7yrs of watching Pitino coached teams, I can't figure out what they are trying to do on offense.

The things I watch this year that drive me insane include

1. Carr jacking up a shot before any offense cans start,
2. carr holding the ball for eternity to either turn it over or forcing a mad scramble to get a shot off before the clock expires
3. forcing the ball to Gabe to take a 3pt shot, no matter what
4. Demir taking 3pt shots at random times

The two 10 second violations in the 2nd half were inexcusable. One might be OK, but the second was downright maddening

 

[KillmeNow]

Which scenario is more likely to occur?

1. We win out the season with Pitino.
2. We win out the season after firing Pitino right now.
3. We lose out the season with Pitino.
4. We lose out the season after firing Pitino right now.

Of those 4 options, our winning out is the most likely. Only game that seems like a really hard to imagine win, is the Maryland game, at home. Otherwise we have games vs NW and Nebraska, both should be easy wins, and 2 games vs IU, and they are not that good, and one other game vs a team in the bottom 3rd of the conference.

You all act like these coaches doing well in conferences with like no competition, proves they could win here? LMAO, this is the B1G, a conference with 12 teams ranked in the Top 50 basically. Name me a single program that takes their cbb program lightly? NONE of them do.

Pitino has a young team and a shallow bench, and yes, I know that is partly his fault, but my question is, what will the team look like in 2 years if Pitino remains the coach? I know Oturu won't be here in 2 years, but most of the rest of the team will be, right?

 

[SPEGOPHER]

I think the only reason Pitino should get another year (barring a miracle NCAA berth this year) is if Oturo is coming back. If Dan returns, we should be a really strong team and can keep our solid recruiting class together.

 

[bga1]

I think the only reason Pitino should get another year (barring a miracle NCAA berth this year) is if Oturo is coming back. If Dan returns, we should be a really strong team and can keep our solid recruiting class together.

I agree with this as a reason. The tricky bit is this- the decision has to be made pronto- right after the BTT if they fail to get in the NCAAs. Oturu may declare he is done or he may declare that he is testing the waters- ala Coffey. In that case we wouldn't know. I agree with you though- if Oturu is back next year, this is a VERY good team.

 

[bga1]

It cant be disputed that Pitino is improving??

In what way?

That's easy. His record the past 4 years is much better than the first three years. Even Built says Pitino has his best staff and is running a more efficient team.

 

[Goldteam]

I think the only reason Pitino should get another year (barring a miracle NCAA berth this year) is if Oturo is coming back. If Dan returns, we should be a really strong team and can keep our solid recruiting class together.

ESPN's latest mock draft on Oturu:

Jonathan Givony has him being drafted in the No. 37 spot to Sacramento. Here is the scouting report he gave.

"Arguably the best player in what many consider the toughest conference in college basketball, Oturu has made a strong case as a first-rounder. Slightly undersized for a center -- measuring 6-9 prior to college -- Oturu is a fluid and agile big man with long arms. He has benefited from the outsized role he has been forced to shoulder for 12-12 Minnesota, allowing him to score from all over the floor.

Oturu does most of his damage in the post with his 240-pound frame, showing physicality carving out space, strong footwork mixing in spin moves and the ability to use either hand to score off the glass. He has also demonstrated some potential stepping outside and shooting 3s, making midrange jumpers or creating his own shot in small doses.

Oturu isn't much of a passer, and his poor assist-to-turnover ratio does put somewhat of a damper on his shot-creation potential, but he should continue to improve his feel over time. His defense has been a mixed bag this season, as he shows somewhat questionable decision-making while still figuring out how to use his tools on a consistent basis.

Players at age 20 who produce at Oturu's level are clear NBA prospects, but the value of players in his mold has dipped, which might relegate him to the second round. With Minnesota appearing likely to miss the NCAA tournament, Oturu might consider returning to college, fine-tuning his skills and trying to enter the NBA on a higher note next year."

 

[scools12]

That's easy. His record the past 4 years is much better than the first three years. Even Built says Pitino has his best staff and is running a more efficient team.

Might as well give Pitino a 5 year extension based on that.

 

[builtbadgers]

That's easy. His record the past 4 years is much better than the first three years. Even Built says Pitino has his best staff and is running a more efficient team.

It is his best staff and we are now winning at a 42% rate.

 

[Keyser Söze]

ESPN's latest mock draft on Oturu:

Jonathan Givony has him being drafted in the No. 37 spot to Sacramento. Here is the scouting report he gave.

"Arguably the best player in what many consider the toughest conference in college basketball, Oturu has made a strong case as a first-rounder. Slightly undersized for a center -- measuring 6-9 prior to college -- Oturu is a fluid and agile big man with long arms. He has benefited from the outsized role he has been forced to shoulder for 12-12 Minnesota, allowing him to score from all over the floor.

Oturu does most of his damage in the post with his 240-pound frame, showing physicality carving out space, strong footwork mixing in spin moves and the ability to use either hand to score off the glass. He has also demonstrated some potential stepping outside and shooting 3s, making midrange jumpers or creating his own shot in small doses.

Oturu isn't much of a passer, and his poor assist-to-turnover ratio does put somewhat of a damper on his shot-creation potential, but he should continue to improve his feel over time. His defense has been a mixed bag this season, as he shows somewhat questionable decision-making while still figuring out how to use his tools on a consistent basis.

Players at age 20 who produce at Oturu's level are clear NBA prospects, but the value of players in his mold has dipped, which might relegate him to the second round. With Minnesota appearing likely to miss the NCAA tournament, Oturu might consider returning to college, fine-tuning his skills and trying to enter the NBA on a higher note next year."

Love the bolded part. Masburn is going to (hopefully) give us a much needed 3rd player who can create offense next year, which I think will make a huge difference in preventing the occasional offensive lapses we have. If Oturu comes back and Ihnen develops like I think he can, we could be a really good team next season.

 

[golfing18now]

It cant be disputed that Pitino is improving??

In what way?

After Pitino's second season, he lost a bunch of players to graduation -- Andre Hollins, Dre Matthieu, Elliot Eliason, and Mo Walker. His year three roster included one senior that played much (Joey King), was led by a sophomore point guard (Mason) and had all of its talent in the freshman and sophomore classes (Mason/Murphy/Dorsey/McBrayer) and/or had yet to arrive. That roster had a disastrous conference season (2-16) in sort of a reset year but went on to the tournament two of the next three years and likely would have been three for three if not for all the injuries and suspension in year five.

Fast forward to "year seven". After losing seven players off last year's team, the roster is configured very similarly to his "year three" team -- one senior that plays (Demir), led by a sophomore point guard, and all the talent is in the freshman and sophomore classes and/or coming in next year.

I'm not completely against the thought of moving on. It wouldn't be the biggest sports travesty in history. But I'm also quite sure his team this year would destroy his year three team and I'd put my money on the over if we looked at the number of tournament appearances and wins over the next three years relative to the prior group's success. My own perception is that this team, this coaching staff, the recruits, or something has improved over the last few years.

I sometimes wonder if his lack of cachet that he earned over the first six years will distort the perception (and ultimately be his undoing) in what should have been the viewpoint of year seven from the beginning -- a reset year.

 

[Go Gophs]

Of those 4 options, our winning out is the most likely. Only game that seems like a really hard to imagine win, is the Maryland game, at home. Otherwise we have games vs NW and Nebraska, both should be easy wins, and 2 games vs IU, and they are not that good, and one other game vs a team in the bottom 3rd of the conference.

You all act like these coaches doing well in conferences with like no competition, proves they could win here? LMAO, this is the B1G, a conference with 12 teams ranked in the Top 50 basically. Name me a single program that takes their cbb program lightly? NONE of them do.

Pitino has a young team and a shallow bench, and yes, I know that is partly his fault, but my question is, what will the team look like in 2 years if Pitino remains the coach? I know Oturu won't be here in 2 years, but most of the rest of the team will be, right?

Most the rest aren’t good. Carr is. The rest are replaceable by almost any division 1 talent. Who cares really. You wouldn’t even have to leave the borders or Midwest to field this same type of roster.

 

[USAF]

That's easy. His record the past 4 years is much better than the first three years. Even Built says Pitino has his best staff and is running a more efficient team.

So he's improved by hiring better coaches?

His third straight sub-.500 B1G record is "much better?"

 

[USAF]

After Pitino's second season, he lost a bunch of players to graduation -- Andre Hollins, Dre Matthieu, Elliot Eliason, and Mo Walker. His year three roster included one senior that played much (Joey King), was led by a sophomore point guard (Mason) and had all of its talent in the freshman and sophomore classes (Mason/Murphy/Dorsey/McBrayer) and/or had yet to arrive. That roster had a disastrous conference season (2-16) in sort of a reset year but went on to the tournament two of the next three years and likely would have been three for three if not for all the injuries and suspension in year five.

Fast forward to "year seven". After losing seven players off last year's team, the roster is configured very similarly to his "year three" team -- one senior that plays (Demir), led by a sophomore point guard, and all the talent is in the freshman and sophomore classes and/or coming in next year.

I'm not completely against the thought of moving on. It wouldn't be the biggest sports travesty in history. But I'm also quite sure his team this year would destroy his year three team and I'd put my money on the over if we looked at the number of tournament appearances and wins over the next three years relative to the prior group's success. My own perception is that this team, this coaching staff, the recruits, or something has improved over the last few years.

I sometimes wonder if his lack of cachet that he earned over the first six years will distort the perception (and ultimately be his undoing) in what should have been the viewpoint of year seven from the beginning -- a reset year.

He gets a "reset year" in year 7?? After having gone 9-11 in the B1G last year, winning his one and only NCAA Tournament game??

People, raise your expectations. If the fan base continues to accept this, it's all we will ever get

 

[Goldteam]

What Big 10 team would replace their current coach with Pitino?

Could I get a list of teams?

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Your listing a ton of elite winners that have national brands. That is who i am trying to beat another way. Villanova was built very much along the lines of the way UVA and UW followed. Texas Tech is built this way. Check out Bob Knights methods when he could not get UNC or UCLA TALENT. What exactly has Baylor won, plus they are shady. Check out the pace of play for Michigan UNDER JB. Your entitled to think UVA and UW are boring, their games sell out, get huge TV ratings, huge donations, win multiple conference titles, get to the final 4 and in UVA's case win it all. I will take that kind of boring. Their identity goes far deeper than defense. There is a poise and dignity to it. Watch what Pitino Sr. says about it. He loves UVA. Jerry West would not miss a game for what can be gleaned. Watching them now can be painful, they shoot it far worse than we do but every single kid that came in knew what was required,it is the program DNA and that package brings them to 17-7 with a horrible offense. It sustains them in a year losing 3 early NBA guys and allows for this freshman class and the next two for more championship runs. I mention programs we could be, that we could model. Those coaches in those programs would have won huge here. I am not fighting you on this. Your entitled your opinion as i am entitled mine. Not for one moment do i think my opinion is more powerful, more important. Each person can read, ignore, agree or disagree with part or all of every post.

So really there are three identities in college basketball. You play lock down defense with a slow pace of play, getting talent because you're a blue blood, or getting talent because you're shady.

So you feel like the only way the Gophers can be successful is to play lock down d with a slow pace of play, the Virginia/Wisconsin models which you preach night and day on here.

I would still like to know what the identities of Baylor, Gonzaga, Kansas, San Diego St, Dayton, Duke, Maryland, Florida St, Penn St, and Kentucky are, all current top 10 teams, which differentiates them from the rest of the pack? It's not obvious to me when watching them, but it should be right? The only thing that's obvious is that they have better players than the teams they are beating.

 

[bga1]

So he's improved by hiring better coaches?

His third straight sub-.500 B1G record is "much better?"

Is this season over? I hadn't heard that.

I said- to repeat- his last 4 years have been much better than his first three. I am correct on that. With any luck he would have gone to the NCAAs his last three years. Anyone who sees what happened two years ago as anything different than terrible luck is just not looking at things objectively.