Is it just me or is the star level of our recruiting

[Pompous Elitist]

Where have I worshipped Fleck? Where have I strawmanned for Fleck. I think he will be a better coach than the previous coach that's it. Not once have I worshipped him.

It's ok

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[PMWinSTP]

I was hoping to get some useful information. Nothing but another bashing thread. Are people that bored with their lives?

Trolling or puzzling comment...this thread has been remarkably on topic for GH.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

It doesn't on Rivals. They only consider the top 20 recruits for team rankings, and most teams sign 20.

It's a little less clear on 247. It appears it's weighted so once the team is beyond somewhere between 20-22 recruits, it also matters very little to the overall ranking.

That still matters though, players 20-28 fill out a roster.

Here is my point (for this hypothetical, let's assume that recruiting rankings are 100% accurate in predicting talent):

Team #1:
Year 1 - 25 recruits (20- 3 star & 5 - 2 star)
Team #2:
Year 1 - 20 recruits (19 - 3 star & 1 2 star)

Team #1 will likely have a better team recruiting ranking for that year even though it has a worse star average.

Year #2 - Team #1 has attrition, loses people and signs 28 people
Team #1:
28 recruits - (20 - 3 star; and 8 - 2 star)
Team #2:
21 recruits - (19 - 3 star; and 2 - 2 star)

Again, Team #1 has a better recruiting ranking for Year #2. However, because of attrition, they actually have a worse star ranking and less experience. A coach who continually has attrition issues (see the context of what you're quoting) will always have this false advantage in terms of recruiting rankings.

I'm not saying that is what happened with PJ, I pointed out that I had never heard that before. I'm saying if a coach has continuous attrition issues, he could easily have 5 straight recruiting classes that ALL have higher team recruiting rankings than another team and that other team has higher rated and more experienced recruits.

 

[MennoSota]

Where have I worshipped Fleck? Where have I strawmanned for Fleck. I think he will be a better coach than the previous coach that's it. Not once have I worshipped him.

Fleck tucks you in at night, johnnyboy. [emoji287]

 

[Johnnyboy18]

Same 3-4 posters saying the same things over and over. So boring

 

[Johnnyboy18]

FIFY.

You are one of the only ones on here who the moment someone says anything that could be considered a slight negative towards PJ has to respond to defend PJ. Not only that, but you also need to make comments to disparage the previous coaches to show how great PJ is.

I think you're confusing me with yourself.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Yeah, this is the unknown variable with PJ. Can he win consistently when he doesn't have the best talent?

He did an amazing job of bringing in talent to Western Michigan. I think he'll recruit higher caliber athletes (on the whole) to the U. However, I still don't think we will regularly finish in the top 5 in the Big 10 in recruiting. I could be wrong on that, I hope I am. So, is he going to be able to finish in the top 6 of the Big 10 every year despite NOT recruiting at that level? Please note, I'm not arguing he can't or won't, I'm saying it's an unknown. It's largely an unknown because of his good work (great recruiter), so this isn't a rip on him.

Maybe my question is wrong and he will be able to bring in those great classes every year.

BTW - I hate the kid gloves we have to use around here now to avoid Fleckophiles going crazy.

The guy can coach. He had never been more than a position coach and at 33 became a HC. He already had a plan to build his way. He went 1-11 in year one and then 29-11 over the next three season out recruiting many in the bottom half of the Big Ten. I just hope for a signature win in year one and a bowl to help recruiting going into year number two. Experts have his current class in the 25-35 range if he keeps on the current path. That blows away the previous staff.

 

[John Galt]

...awfully similar to the recruits we got when Kill & company were running the farm?

Most kids are 2 and 3 star, under the radar type kids.

Personally, I have no problem with the recruits we are getting, but I don't see any real upgrade over the past regime.

We're ranked what, #18 in the country for our recruiting class currently? Did we ever sniff the top 30 under Kill? Top 40?

 

[PMWinSTP]

The guy can coach. He had never been more than a position coach and at 33 became a HC. He already had a plan to build his way. He went 1-11 in year one and then 29-11 over the next three season out recruiting many in the bottom half of the Big Ten. I just hope for a signature win in year one and a bowl to help recruiting going into year number two. Experts have his current class in the 25-35 range if he keeps on the current path. That blows away the previous staff.

More like bottom 20% of B1G, twice. Pretty sure Fleck's predecessor at WMU had some classes ranked higher nationally than Fleck's at WMU.

With his current commits he needs 4*s to have a chance at that range. If he gets one and fills out the rest with 3*, he will more likely end up in the 45-50 range, which would be Fleck's best recruiting class by about 15 spots.

 

[corcoran1]

...awfully similar to the recruits we got when Kill & company were running the farm?

Most kids are 2 and 3 star, under the radar type kids.

Personally, I have no problem with the recruits we are getting, but I don't see any real upgrade over the past regime.

Why is this a shock? I am just happy we are getting guys early that we screwed around with until Jan in the past, e.g. QB,WR, DT,DE. If we had 5 olinemen committed I'd list them as well.

 

[MennoSota]

We're ranked what, #18 in the country for our recruiting class currently? Did we ever sniff the top 30 under Kill? Top 40?

I don't know. I'm just looking at the star ratings.
From reading other posts it looks like we'll drop once the big schools start inking their 4 and 5 star recruits. It seems our ranking is due to the early verbal commits we currently have rather than the star rating we have.
Perhaps Kill and company received their commitments later in the recruiting cycle?

 

[MennoSota]

Why is this a shock? I am just happy we are getting guys early that we screwed around with until Jan in the past, e.g. QB,WR, DT,DE. If we had 5 olinemen committed I'd list them as well.

It's not a shock. It's just an observation. Although, the talk on the Gopherhole was that the recruiting ranks were one of the reasons Claeys was fired.
I have liked the recruits we got under Kill & co. I think we're getting similar recruits under Fleck & co.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Weird, I thought it was 8 wins or this coaching staff is a colossal failure?! (not a direct quote)

This is a thread about recruiting. we are (or so I thought) discussing how to evaluate Fleck's recruiting. That is what I was referring to. At least in my eyes, I don't think you can draw any definite conclusions about Fleck as a recruiter - at a major Conference level - for at least a couple of years.

As to your other point, no, I do not think the staff will be a "colossal failure" if the team does not win 8 games. I would not be thrilled with a 6-win season, but until I see this team play, and see what the new staff does, it's hard for me to have an opinion. You see, I like to actually have some factual basis to form an opinion, believe it or not.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The guy can coach. He had never been more than a position coach and at 33 became a HC. He already had a plan to build his way. He went 1-11 in year one and then 29-11 over the next three season out recruiting many in the bottom half of the Big Ten. I just hope for a signature win in year one and a bowl to help recruiting going into year number two. Experts have his current class in the 25-35 range if he keeps on the current path. That blows away the previous staff.

I agree with everything you are saying here. I just don't see how it's a response to my post.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

That still matters though, players 20-28 fill out a roster.

Here is my point (for this hypothetical, let's assume that recruiting rankings are 100% accurate in predicting talent):

Team #1:
Year 1 - 25 recruits (20- 3 star & 5 - 2 star)
Team #2:
Year 1 - 20 recruits (19 - 3 star & 1 2 star)

Team #1 will likely have a better team recruiting ranking for that year even though it has a worse star average.

Year #2 - Team #1 has attrition, loses people and signs 28 people
Team #1:
28 recruits - (20 - 3 star; and 8 - 2 star)
Team #2:
21 recruits - (19 - 3 star; and 2 - 2 star)

Again, Team #1 has a better recruiting ranking for Year #2. However, because of attrition, they actually have a worse star ranking and less experience. A coach who continually has attrition issues (see the context of what you're quoting) will always have this false advantage in terms of recruiting rankings.

I'm not saying that is what happened with PJ, I pointed out that I had never heard that before. I'm saying if a coach has continuous attrition issues, he could easily have 5 straight recruiting classes that ALL have higher team recruiting rankings than another team and that other team has higher rated and more experienced recruits.

This is a hypothetical that would never happen. Those two teams would be separated by about 1 spot in the rankings. The same two teams would never be that close in the rankings 5 straight years. We also know that recruiting rankings are not 100% accurate.

 

[Spoofin]

Fleck's recruiting rankings at WMU were somewhat misleading.

34 of his recruits lasted only one year or didn't even make it to the first game of their freshman year.

Now this is an interesting fact I did not know. If true (no reason to doubt), he was not the best recruiter in even the MAC. Makes me doubt rankings even more (which I didn't think was possible), a bit more suspect about his recruiting ability, but actually more confident in his coaching ability.


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[MrC]

Compare their National rankings.

Feel free...that is why I provided the links!

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I don't know. I'm just looking at the star ratings.
From reading other posts it looks like we'll drop once the big schools start inking their 4 and 5 star recruits. It seems our ranking is due to the early verbal commits we currently have rather than the star rating we have.
Perhaps Kill and company received their commitments later in the recruiting cycle?

That's the difference. The majority of Kill's recruits came in November or later. When most of their SR years in high school were finished, and their recruiting ratings were complete.

We're not used to seeing this many recruits so early. A number of these recruits are just being rated now, and many could have different or higher ratings closer to signing day. Especially the ones who are currently ranked lower but have suddenly received bigger offers thanks to further evaluation or their performance in camps. We still have 7 months to go.

 

[GopherHomer]

I mean, we can certainly argue what the value is of each one hundredth of a decimal point on 247, but regardless of where we end up in the national ranking, if our current score holds it will represent the greatest recruiting haul in the history of the modern rankings (talking purely the average score on 247)...although not by much. Quite frankly, I also expected a bit more, but it's not like he is failing in the context of Gopher football. Not sure this is the issue to die on the mountain for.

 

[60's Guy]

Recruiting class rank on signing day: We have a high number of early verbal commits. How many wash out by signing day? Big question: who do we replace them with? higher ranked recruits or lower ranked recruits?
Question 2:
The 34 guys who washed out at WMU very early, is that a dynamic of PJ's personality or gambling at talented but "riskier" recruits? We offered a guy at a satellite camp who said he hadn't heard much of anything from MN prior, he accepted, how well did we check this kids background before the commitment? Are we going to be less stable than under the previous staff who absolutely analyzed guys as long as possible if you listened to Glasscock discuss their philosophy. Either way, whatever, if the trend is guys coming and going for whatever the reasons...PJ's personality or missing on character or academics assessment on a frequent basis...it's going to be harder to be successful.
BUT, like somebody said: Just recruit and develop better quarterbacks and wide receivers and we can screw up a bunch of things. I believe we will be better offensively by default.
My other long term big question: Can we keep this coaching staff together for a couple years? We have an excellent coaching staff. Does our O-line coach make it to year 2? Paup? Hopefully, the WMU coaches are all in. We need them.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I agree with everything you are saying here. I just don't see how it's a response to my post.

Sorry it was more in support of your comment and against those questioning whether he can coach.

 

[btowngopher]

Assuming Fleck signs his current verbals...and you look at everyone Kill and Flack signed in their tenures...6 of the top 10 out of state recruits according to 247 ratings are Fleck guys. He's been here half a year. I think recruiting is improved.

 

[Broncos181973]

Now this is an interesting fact I did not know. If true (no reason to doubt), he was not the best recruiter in even the MAC. Makes me doubt rankings even more (which I didn't think was possible), a bit more suspect about his recruiting ability, but actually more confident in his coaching ability.

Good point, Spoof.
Fleck said he did not deal much with Xs and Os while at Western, let his coordinators do most of that.
He was in charge of motivation and promotion.

 

[Spoofin]

<b>Assuming Fleck signs his current verbals</b>...and you look at everyone Kill and Flack signed in their tenures...6 of the top 10 out of state recruits according to 247 ratings are Fleck guys. He's been here half a year. I think recruiting is improved.

Seems like an awfully big assumption based on what we have already seen, how far away NSD is, etc.


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[GopherHomer]

Gopherhole is really a toxic space. This off-season we signed the hottest young coach in the country and I swear at least half the people on this site either want/think that he will fail. Don't get me wrong - history shows that those people are probably right, but if we can't get excited about P.J. Fleck we might as well shut it down as a program. Seriously folks, the best message boards are the ones where people are perpetually, blindly optimistic about the future. We truly DO need a culture change...we are a defeated fanbase.

My tepid predictions for 2017 have basically been an attempt to counter the Reusse-esque "fake targets" out there, but Fleck represents the best chance for us winning the West in 2019 or 2020 than any other obtainable coach. I'm just "diving in" and if he fails I will just "dive in" with the next coach...hence my name.

 

[Spoofin]

Half the people on this site want him to fail? Again with this? Show me one fan that posts on this board that wants PJF to fail.


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[short ornery norwegian]

Here is what I want - I want the Gophers to win - and I want the coach to stop saying "elite" every 9 seconds.

I make no bones about it - Fleck's style and personality make me want to gag. But, he is the coach of the Gopher FB team, and that means I want him to succeed - even if there are times I wind up holding my nose. Coaches come and go - the program stays. There was a Gopher FB program long before Fleck was born, and god willing, there will be a gopher FB program long after he is dead.

Who knows - maybe I will change my mind over time. I wasn't thrilled with Claeys at first, but I grew to respect his coaching ability, and grew to like his understated personality. I'm a small-town guy, and I could relate to Claeys. I have a hard time relating to Fleck. Maybe I will have a change of heart with Fleck - or maybe I won't.

But, never mistake my misgivings about Fleck as a lack of support for the Gopher program.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

Gopherhole is really a toxic space. This off-season we signed the hottest young coach in the country and I swear at least half the people on this site either want/think that he will fail. Don't get me wrong - history shows that those people are probably right, but if we can't get excited about P.J. Fleck we might as well shut it down as a program. Seriously folks, the best message boards are the ones where people are perpetually, blindly optimistic about the future. We truly DO need a culture change...we are a defeated fanbase.

My tepid predictions for 2017 have basically been an attempt to counter the Reusse-esque "fake targets" out there, but Fleck represents the best chance for us winning the West in 2019 or 2020 than any other obtainable coach. I'm just "diving in" and if he fails I will just "dive in" with the next coach...hence my name.

Agreed but they'll never admit it.

 

[btowngopher]

Here is what I want - I want the Gophers to win - and I want the coach to stop saying "elite" every 9 seconds.

I make no bones about it - Fleck's style and personality make me want to gag. But, he is the coach of the Gopher FB team, and that means I want him to succeed - even if there are times I wind up holding my nose. Coaches come and go - the program stays. There was a Gopher FB program long before Fleck was born, and god willing, there will be a gopher FB program long after he is dead.

Who knows - maybe I will change my mind over time. I wasn't thrilled with Claeys at first, but I grew to respect his coaching ability, and grew to like his understated personality. I'm a small-town guy, and I could relate to Claeys. I have a hard time relating to Fleck. Maybe I will have a change of heart with Fleck - or maybe I won't.

But, never mistake my misgivings about Fleck as a lack of support for the Gopher program.

You really care about that if we win?

 

[MennoSota]

Gopherhole is really a toxic space.

Don't get me wrong - history shows that those people are probably right, but if we can't get excited about P.J. Fleck we might as well shut it down as a program.

Seriously folks, the best message boards are the ones where people are perpetually, blindly optimistic about the future. We truly DO need a culture change...we are a defeated fanbase.

Welcome to the worst message board. The chamber of despair and misery. The essence of putrescence. We put the Black in Sabbath. Like the Rocky Horror Picture Show, we're so bad we're good.
Long live the culture of the Gopherhole! Long live the hole! [emoji482]