If his name wasn't "Tubby Smith" would your opinion change?

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bemidjigopher said:
we only lose Ralph next year, have a couple solid recruits coming in, Buggs will probably be an upgrade over Oto, Ellenson's arrival should put Maverick on the bench next to Kendall Shell. We get Big Mo back, it should be a good team next year and in two years maybe a great team, and if Mbakwe gets a 6th yea (big if) they could go 13-5 in the B1G and make the sweet 16
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Buggs being an upgrade over Oto won't be a big difference on this team and I think Oto is better than people on here think. Ellenson moving Mav to the bench? Really? So a SG would move a PG to the bench? Only reason Coleman had an effect on Mav going to the bench is because we had Welch in there to play PG. Ellenson will have little effect on Mav's playing time.
 

From the Barn said:
One coach still had a rabid fan base and one didn't

One coach took over a horrible team and one didn't

One coach had to deal with rabid apathy and one didn't
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One coach inherited the leftovers from the "horrible" team, and they have been the other coaches best players to date.

One coach inherited some apathy; said coach hasnt done anything to change that, as more and more fans are not in the stands.

One coach is honored at every turn, the other was thrown to the dogs and berated for equal results.
 

Sorry dude, Illinois was a sell out, and even the crowds have been smaller they were bigger than Monson's final years.
 

tjgesquire said:
no one expected national championships with the hire.
After 5 seasons, at least one season with a winning conference record should be a minimum expectation. That doesn't mean powerhouse, champion, etc.

We are a bad Big Ten team. We're firmly planted in the bottom four and not even mediocre in our own conference, that's sad. And that is not what the coach is being paid to do.
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Firmly planted in the bottom four of the Big Ten? Which of Iowa, Nebraska, Penn State, and Northwestern are we decidedly worse than? The only one you could argue we are worse than is Iowa because of their two close victories over us this season, but before this season, Tubby had not lost to Iowa, beating them 6 straight times by an average of 9 points (not including a home 35 point pounding which brings the average to about 16 points).

The direction Tubby had us headed toward the beginning of his Minnesota career is why I want to keep giving him a chance, because he had us headed in a very good direction before we were hit by a long string of bad luck. He CAN do it, but some otherworldly power is doing its damnedest to make sure that whenever things start to look up, something happens that yet again prevents the team from reaching its potential. This year it was Mbakwe's injury, last year it was the combination of Joseph's transfer and Nolen's injury about a week afterward (Does Devoe transfer if Nolen gets injured a couple weeks earlier, handing him the starting point guard spot?), the year before that it was Royce and Mbakwe, easily the best players on the team, being suspended for the season. Offseason transfers leading to the acquisition of spring recruits have not helped either.

Other than the first 5 or 6 games of this season, when was the last time we played a game with a full team?

I'm positive that many of you would think Tubby was a much better coach if a number of things that were out of his control didn't happen. Tubby can do it, just the window of opportunity always seems to shut on him when he's halfway through it.
 

tentoes said:
Tubby is the best coach we are getting for this team. A lot of kids aren't going to want to play for some coach they never heard of, from some mid major they've never heard of, in one of the coldest places they've ever heard of, without sweet digs to practice in, and without any kind of winning tradition or rabid student fanbase. But some kids are going to perk up for the same reason we all did, the name Tubby Smith. That's our best shot moving forward.
QUOTE]

You know what recruits care about, none of that. They choose a school that they think gives them the best chance of making the NBA, period. If Tubby's name had any sort of that kind of recognition with recruits we'd be doing better than Maverick, Eliason and Oto.
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Cayman said:
Firmly planted in the bottom four of the Big Ten? Which of Iowa, Nebraska, Penn State, and Northwestern are we decidedly worse than? The only one you could argue we are worse than is Iowa because of their two close victories over us this season, but before this season, Tubby had not lost to Iowa, beating them 6 straight times by an average of 9 points (not including a home 35 point pounding which brings the average to about 16 points).

The direction Tubby had us headed toward the beginning of his Minnesota career is why I want to keep giving him a chance, because he had us headed in a very good direction before we were hit by a long string of bad luck. He CAN do it, but some otherworldly power is doing its damnedest to make sure that whenever things start to look up, something happens that yet again prevents the team from reaching its potential. This year it was Mbakwe's injury, last year it was the combination of Joseph's transfer and Nolen's injury about a week afterward (Does Devoe transfer if Nolen gets injured a couple weeks earlier, handing him the starting point guard spot?), the year before that it was Royce and Mbakwe, easily the best players on the team, being suspended for the season. Offseason transfers leading to the acquisition of spring recruits have not helped either.

Other than the first 5 or 6 games of this season, when was the last time we played a game with a full team?

I'm positive that many of you would think Tubby was a much better coach if a number of things that were out of his control didn't happen. Tubby can do it, just the window of opportunity always seems to shut on him when he's halfway through it.
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+1
 

BarnBurner said:
One coach inherited the leftovers from the "horrible" team, and they have been the other coaches best players to date.

One coach inherited some apathy; said coach hasnt done anything to change that, as more and more fans are not in the stands.

One coach is honored at every turn, the other was thrown to the dogs and berated for equal results.
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I'd like to know in what made up world of yours that is happening.
 

Here is what it boils down to:

Minnesota is not, has not been, and likely never will be anything more than a mediocre Big Ten team in basketball. Have there been occasional bouts of competitiveness? Oh, sure, but by and large, Minnesota is a middle-to-bottom of the conference team. Period. I don't know where some people got this birthright that Minnesota is supposed to be contending for Big Ten and National Championships. We aren't Michigan St. We aren't Ohio St. We aren't Purdue. Hell, we aren't even Wisconsin. Should we hope and aspire to those things? Yes, of course. If I didn't think it were possible, I wouldn't be a Gophers fan. The problem is that many people expect Tubby to have Minnesota near the top of the conference on, apparently, his name alone. Newsflash for you: no one, and I mean no one, is going to turn Minnesota into a consistent Big Ten powerhouse. Period. It ain't gonna happen. Do I wish the last two years had gone better? Of course. But I also realize that losing every point/combo guard on your roster, followed the next year by losing your (far and away) best player for the entire season, have real and tangible detrimental effects on a team. I think a 4-6 record thus far is borderline miraculous given the quality of player that was lost. People expecting the Gophers to be a top-tier Big Ten team this year are the kind of people who expected the Bulls to keep winning titles in '94 and '95 after Jordan retired, or expected the Colts to win 12 or 13 games this year after Manning went down - in other words, delusional and not dealing with reality as it is. People who say "a team should be able to withstand the loss of one player in year 5" are being intellectually dishonest and not dealing with the facts as they are.
 

Dre ad Welch will get all of the minutes at point, Mav may get some when we play the hellen keller acadamy of the deaf type teams, but he won't play a lick in b1G play. Not to mention Hollins will play most of his minutes on the wing. We will have Welch, Coleman, Dre, Chip, and Ellenson, Hollins and Buggs on the wing, Rodney and Oto at the 4 Elliot and Mo at the 5. So where is Mav gonna be, sitting next to shell, Ingram and Halverson and by some miracle that Mbakwe is renstated who gets the boot, Ingram or Halverson?
 



I would still love the guy. He is a class act.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Here is what it boils down to:

Minnesota is not, has not been, and likely never will be anything more than a mediocre Big Ten team in basketball. Have there been occasional bouts of competitiveness? Oh, sure, but by and large, Minnesota is a middle-to-bottom of the conference team. Period. I don't know where some people got this birthright that Minnesota is supposed to be contending for Big Ten and National Championships. We aren't Michigan St. We aren't Ohio St. We aren't Purdue. Hell, we aren't even Wisconsin. Should we hope and aspire to those things? Yes, of course. If I didn't think it were possible, I wouldn't be a Gophers fan. The problem is that many people expect Tubby to have Minnesota near the top of the conference on, apparently, his name alone. Newsflash for you: no one, and I mean no one, is going to turn Minnesota into a consistent Big Ten powerhouse. Period. It ain't gonna happen. Do I wish the last two years had gone better? Of course. But I also realize that losing every point/combo guard on your roster, followed the next year by losing your (far and away) best player for the entire season, have real and tangible detrimental effects on a team. I think a 4-6 record thus far is borderline miraculous given the quality of player that was lost. People expecting the Gophers to be a top-tier Big Ten team this year are the kind of people who expected the Bulls to keep winning titles in '94 and '95 after Jordan retired, or expected the Colts to win 12 or 13 games this year after Manning went down - in other words, delusional and not dealing with reality as it is. People who say "a team should be able to withstand the loss of one player in year 5" are being intellectually dishonest and not dealing with the facts as they are.
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This type of post is exactly why Minnesota sports suck. Nobody would have thought we would have a worse program than Wisconsin even a decade ago, yet now it is just accepted by a certain type of fan. Minnesota has been better than a middle tier team and there's no reason why it should be at/near the bottom of the conference. Every time this job has come open, a desirable coach has wanted it, even after thse "scandal". If you think a 4-6 record is borderline miraculous, you should consider Vegas because the Gophers have been upset 3 times in conference play. The sooner we get away from sweeping negative statements involving the terms "always" and "never", the better.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Here is what it boils down to:

Minnesota is not, has not been, and likely never will be anything more than a mediocre Big Ten team in basketball. Have there been occasional bouts of competitiveness? Oh, sure, but by and large, Minnesota is a middle-to-bottom of the conference team. Period.
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You will not, have not and more then likely never will understand college basketball. Just my opinion. Period.
 




dpodoll68 said:
Please enlighten me, genius.
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"never will be" You're special - I have never met a Clairvoyant before!
 

Are those of you who want him out convinced that this is as good as it gets with Tubby? Do you think he's perfectly OK with being 4-6? Do you think he is and will continue to mail-in recruiting? Do you honestly think he's not putting in the effort to win? I'm not convinced of that at all.

It's frustrating that we're not better than we are. But to force out a proven coach who's done it before and gotten us to the brink of where we want to be here, you better be certain that the fire is gone and it's not getting better. Even then, you take a huge risk that the next guy will be far worse (think Brewster, Tim). Essentially, it is similar to the debate on Mason, except Mason didn't have nearly Tubby's level of prior success and he didn't have nearly the injury/defections to blame his last few years on. Even then, I was never convinced that he'd stopped trying, but others were. I simply don't see the same evidence here.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Here is what it boils down to:

Minnesota is not, has not been, and likely never will be anything more than a mediocre Big Ten team in basketball. Have there been occasional bouts of competitiveness? Oh, sure, but by and large, Minnesota is a middle-to-bottom of the conference team. Period. I don't know where some people got this birthright that Minnesota is supposed to be contending for Big Ten and National Championships. We aren't Michigan St. We aren't Ohio St. We aren't Purdue. Hell, we aren't even Wisconsin. Should we hope and aspire to those things? Yes, of course. If I didn't think it were possible, I wouldn't be a Gophers fan. The problem is that many people expect Tubby to have Minnesota near the top of the conference on, apparently, his name alone. Newsflash for you: no one, and I mean no one, is going to turn Minnesota into a consistent Big Ten powerhouse. Period. It ain't gonna happen. Do I wish the last two years had gone better? Of course. But I also realize that losing every point/combo guard on your roster, followed the next year by losing your (far and away) best player for the entire season, have real and tangible detrimental effects on a team. I think a 4-6 record thus far is borderline miraculous given the quality of player that was lost. People expecting the Gophers to be a top-tier Big Ten team this year are the kind of people who expected the Bulls to keep winning titles in '94 and '95 after Jordan retired, or expected the Colts to win 12 or 13 games this year after Manning went down - in other words, delusional and not dealing with reality as it is. People who say "a team should be able to withstand the loss of one player in year 5" are being intellectually dishonest and not dealing with the facts as they are.
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You have a point, but are over-stating it a bit. No, we're not Michigan State or even Ohio State. But there's nothing inherently better about Wisconsin or Purdue and there's no reason we can't be at or above their level. I'll pause while we list all of Wisconsin's and Purdue's Final Four appearances over the last 30 years.......1 between them. Have they been more consistent? Sure. But their ceiling is no higher.
 


howeda7 said:
You have a point, but are over-stating it a bit. No, we're not Michigan State or even Ohio State. But there's nothing inherently better about Wisconsin or Purdue and there's no reason we can't be at or above their level. I'll pause while we list all of Wisconsin's and Purdue's Final Four appearances over the last 30 years.......1 between them. Have they been more consistent? Sure. But their ceiling is no higher.
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Dude you realize that Purdue has actually made it past the first round of the NCAA tournament 12 times more than we have in the last 17 years right? Wisconsin 9 of the last 10 years alone. That is not counting how far each team has got past the first round OR how we litterally have barely even made it to the NCAA tournament at all. Horrible point...but it's ok to be a Homer. You can certainly dwell on the not-so-distant past if that helps you feel better. I don't agree with DPO much but you owned yourself. Minnesota's ceiling is lower for a multitude of reasons.

16 years..... nuff' said.

edit: thought it was 13 years but it was actually 16!! wow
 

howeda7 said:
You have a point, but are over-stating it a bit. No, we're not Michigan State or even Ohio State. But there's nothing inherently better about Wisconsin or Purdue and there's no reason we can't be at or above their level. I'll pause while we list all of Wisconsin's and Purdue's Final Four appearances over the last 30 years.......1 between them. Have they been more consistent? Sure. But their ceiling is no higher.
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I guess I mostly agree with you, but the fundamental point I want to make regarding this whole argument is this:

Since 1992 (I just picked the past 20 years for a sample),

Purdue: Four B1G championships, finished in top three 11 times, 21 NCAA tournament wins (four Sweet 16s, two Elite 8s)

Becky: Three B1G championships, finished in top three eight times, 19 NCAA tournament wins (three Sweet 16s, one Elite 8, one Final Four [as mentioned])

Gophs (including scandal years): One B1G championship, finished in top three once, five NCAA tournament wins (one Final Four), seven NCAA tournament appearances

We can (and should) expect more from the Gophers, I'm not arguing that. But historically, what has shown people that our ceiling is comparable to other middle-ish B1G teams? I feel like a lot of people, myself included, allowed their own hopes to get a little too high too fast when Tubby was hired. It's not like you can just snap your fingers, and all of a sudden you have a powerhouse program. I agree that there's no reason we can't be at or above the level of the Purdues and Wisconsins of the world in years to come, but near-term expectations need to be tempered when considering the types of things our program has gone through over the past few years.
 

I agree with howeda7 that are ceiling is definitely just as high as Purdue's or Wisconsin's.

You know what recruits care about, none of that. They choose a school that they think gives them the best chance of making the NBA, period. If Tubby's name had any sort of that kind of recognition with recruits we'd be doing better than Maverick, Eliason and Oto.
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Wrong. In general, top notch recruits pick where they fit in best. They realize that if they're good enough, they will play in the NBA someday. Cough*tyus*cough. Many of our players could have gone to a program that sends more players to the NBA -

Big Mo - Pitt and UCONN
Austin - Memphis
Mbakwe - Alabama, Baylor, LSU, NC State, and Memphis
Rodney - Wisconsin
Ralph - Kentucky, Maryland, Clemson, and Georgia Tech
Eliason - Stanford
Oto - Florida...By the way, you said we need to do better than getting recruits with the hype of Oto? Oto had offers from Florida, Providence, and Iowa State. That's a better offer list than Joe Coleman. Granted, Joe did commit early in his recruitment.
 

JackiO said:
Dude you realize that Purdue has actually made it past the first round of the NCAA tournament 12 times more than we have in the last 17 years right? Wisconsin 9 of the last 10 years alone. That is not counting how far each team has got past the first round OR how we litterally have barely even made it to the NCAA tournament at all. Horrible point...but it's ok to be a Homer. You can certainly dwell on the not-so-distant past if that helps you feel better. I don't agree with DPO much but you owned yourself. Minnesota's ceiling is lower for a multitude of reasons.

16 years..... nuff' said.

edit: thought it was 13 years but it was actually 16!! wow
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I don't dispute Purdue has been far, far better in the past 15 years. In the past decade we have zero to brag about relative to almost anyone. But from 1989-1999 Minnesota was better than either of them. My only point is that to hold up Purdue and Wisconsin as 'far better' programs overall is over-the-top. For all of the 'making it past the first round' Purdue hasn't made a Final Four and Wisconsin made 1. We have has many as either of them (spare me the sanction discussion).

There's nothing inherently better about either program. Purdue is Indiana's red-headed step-brother. Wiscy is a football school and has to compete with Marquette. Meanwhile, MN is in a major metro area and the only D-1 school in a state of 5 million people. Save a practice facility there's no reason the MN job can't be as good as any in the B1G outside of Indiana, MSU, OSU and maybe Illinois.
 

EG#9 said:
This is the likely resume after year 5:

-0 NCAA tournament wins
- 2 Tournament appearances as a bubble team
- Best conference finish: 6th place
- 2 straight losing conference seasons

My guess is that if the Gophers had hired someone like Dana Altman 5 years ago that there would be much more anger directed at the head coach than there appears to be currently.

Looking ahead to year 6, I can't see the Gophers being picked to finish any higher than 9th in the Big Ten barring an extremely unlikely sixth season from Trevor Mbakwe.

To be clear, I think Tubby should coach this team next year, but the time for excuses has to be over. The bare minimum has to be a top half of the conference finish or a change should be made. I never thought we'd be in this position five years ago, but it appears that such a minimum standard or respectiblity will be very difficult to achieve.
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I have to say "yes" my opinion would change!!
 

We can and should have a program just as strong as WI. They don't recruit players that are any better than MN.

Go back to the 97 season. We were a much better program at that time than WI. WI had only been in the NCAA tournament once since 1947. The gophers were ranked 3rd in the country and made the final four. The problem from that point on is that we had the scandal and hired a coach that wasn't capable of digging us out of the hole. Tubby has had his issues, we had an AD who made some tough decisions and we have had some bad luck and injuries.

Since the collapse of the scandal, WI has become a stronger program but I think we can and should be a program that can compete and be stronger than the badgers in the near future.
 

The interesting part about the program is that over the years Minnesota has produced more NBA players than Michigan State and twice as many as Wisconsin. This program can compete in the future. It is time for the U to step up and move forward.
 

I concur with the Howie Brothers above. We can achieve where we want to be by sticking with Tubby and NOT blowing up the whole program. Each loss wounds, no question. My problem with the Tubbinots is the refusal to acknowledge the defections (injured/misdemenant) and the quality of players that have been recruited. RoyalGopher's schedule of recruits above is Exhibit A (not including White and Joseph). The Tubbinots could get what they want, Gophers can go "Crean" and wait 3-5 years to get out of the cellar. I know, Tubbinots will say, we're already in the gutter. But not true, even if the Gophers don't dance or dance lite in 2012, I'm confident that next year will be better.
 

Any other coach would be getting a lot less flack. Considering where we were when Tubby took over, I think we would all be pleased to be an NCAA Bubble Team right now, considering the loss of our best players the past couple years, along with another potentially large piece of the puzzle. It's easy to complain, but we have had a lot of bad luck over the past couple years. While I will agree that Tubby seems to be pretty boneheaded at times, he hasn't fielded his full team yet. He has a few more years before I start even considering that he should be replaced.
 

Here's the thing: "Tubby Smith" is a brand name in college basketball. A name everyone recognizes - a coach with a National Championship on his resume.

When you hire a Brand Name coach, it increases expectations for the program - hey, MN hired "Tubby Smith."

And, up to this point, the Gophers Brand Name coach has not produced Brand Name results. Yes, there have been extenuating circumstances, but the pro-Tubby crowd does not want to accept that Tubby is at least partially responsible for some of what's happened, especially the transfers. Guys who are happy with the coach and the program don't transfer.

If the Gophs had hired an up-and comer, mid-major type, and had the same results as Tubby up to this point, I don't think there would be as much angst over the state of the program. But, you can't have it both ways - if you hire a Brand Name coach, you are making a statement that you expect Brand Name results, not Brand X results.

Seriously - on the day the U announced the Tubby hiring - if I had predicted that the Gophs would not have an NCAA tournament win through 5 years under Tubby, everyone on this board would have been calling me crazy. I think the last part of this season is crucial - if the Gophs can win enough games to get into the tournament, then the heat will be turned down. If they fall apart, and miss the tournament, the heat will go from simmer to boiling.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
Here's the thing: "Tubby Smith" is a brand name in college basketball. A name everyone recognizes - a coach with a National Championship on his resume.

When you hire a Brand Name coach, it increases expectations for the program - hey, MN hired "Tubby Smith."

And, up to this point, the Gophers Brand Name coach has not produced Brand Name results. Yes, there have been extenuating circumstances, but the pro-Tubby crowd does not want to accept that Tubby is at least partially responsible for some of what's happened, especially the transfers. Guys who are happy with the coach and the program don't transfer.

If the Gophs had hired an up-and comer, mid-major type, and had the same results as Tubby up to this point, I don't think there would be as much angst over the state of the program. But, you can't have it both ways - if you hire a Brand Name coach, you are making a statement that you expect Brand Name results, not Brand X results.

Seriously - on the day the U announced the Tubby hiring - if I had predicted that the Gophs would not have an NCAA tournament win through 5 years under Tubby, everyone on this board would have been calling me crazy. I think the last part of this season is crucial - if the Gophs can win enough games to get into the tournament, then the heat will be turned down. If they fall apart, and miss the tournament, the heat will go from simmer to boiling.
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Perfect!
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Here's the thing: "Tubby Smith" is a brand name in college basketball. A name everyone recognizes - a coach with a National Championship on his resume.

When you hire a Brand Name coach, it increases expectations for the program - hey, MN hired "Tubby Smith."

And, up to this point, the Gophers Brand Name coach has not produced Brand Name results. Yes, there have been extenuating circumstances, but the pro-Tubby crowd does not want to accept that Tubby is at least partially responsible for some of what's happened, especially the transfers. Guys who are happy with the coach and the program don't transfer.

If the Gophs had hired an up-and comer, mid-major type, and had the same results as Tubby up to this point, I don't think there would be as much angst over the state of the program. But, you can't have it both ways - if you hire a Brand Name coach, you are making a statement that you expect Brand Name results, not Brand X results.

Seriously - on the day the U announced the Tubby hiring - if I had predicted that the Gophs would not have an NCAA tournament win through 5 years under Tubby, everyone on this board would have been calling me crazy. I think the last part of this season is crucial - if the Gophs can win enough games to get into the tournament, then the heat will be turned down. If they fall apart, and miss the tournament, the heat will go from simmer to boiling.
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I respect Tubby, but I agree with this. I had no confidence in Maturi hiring a good replacement for Tubby. I will wait and evaluate the new AD. I would like a hire like Coach Fran at Iowa not sure someone like Patrick Chambers (the new PSU coach) would interest me.

I do find it disgusting that some Kentucky fans are happy with Tubby's stuggles, so they can be vindicated (BS). What a sick, small minded group of individuals. Coach Cal is doing fine, what more do you want?
 

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