I don’t agree with Fleck “We got closer, and you’ve got to get closer before you can get over it."

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60's Guy said:
Your logic is bullshit....Devers, Renner, Witham, Conner Olson, Weyler, Kamal Martin, DeLattiboudere, Tyler Coughlin, Shenault, Blake Cashman, Barber, Ko Kieft,
Shannon and Rodney, Tyler Johnson, Winfield, Celestin, Durr, Seth Green, the Huff Bros, Howard and Swenson just to name a few along with Andries all have helped PJ among some I forgot.
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😂 Swenson? You just naming every player he inherited? I guess we can’t judge Fleck until next year, because then he finally will have only his guys.
 

btowngopher said:
😂 Swenson? You just naming every player he inherited? I guess we can’t judge Fleck until next year, because then he finally will have only his guys.
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Nope some people will say he inherited Andries.
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
Fleck inherited a 9-4 team, and if go 2-1 (won’t beat WI unless Fleck dramatically changes things), the best you can say he has done in five years is hold serve, barely. He has not dramatically improved the program as he likes to tell us. He won in 2019, and that’s great. He capitalized on talent he inherited, and added talent to that. Now, we will end this year most likely 8-5 or 7-6. We are in the same place we were, at best, as we have had two awful losses this year and the West is mediocre at best. Which direction does he go now? Will be interesting to see if he is willing to make changes.
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Everytime I read something really dumb on Gopherhole, before scrolling up, I say to myself "I hope this isn't Ozzy&Ray trying to reframe history."

Then I scroll up and I see it's the same post from the same poster about how the fact we haven't won 10 games means we are worse under Fleck.

I read a lot of really ignorant posts, but you've been on this kick for literally years now, and if you want to have your own opinion of success, that's fine. But the idea that this program was in good shape when Fleck took over is very aggressively disingenuous.

For someone who has been on this forum for this long, who seems to have no clue about the issues with the team in 2016, nor any idea whatsoever of who was on the roster in 2017 when Fleck arrived is an expert practice of ignorance that can't be matched on this board by anyone else I've read.
 

60's Guy said:
Your logic is bullshit....Devers, Renner, Witham, Conner Olson, Weyler, Kamal Martin, DeLattiboudere, Tyler Coughlin, Shenault, Blake Cashman, Barber, Ko Kieft,
Shannon and Rodney, Tyler Johnson, Winfield, Celestin, Durr, Seth Green, the Huff Bros, Howard and Swenson just to name a few along with Andries all have helped PJ among some I forgot.
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Whatever you think of Mitch Leidner (I liked him a lot), the QBs inherited by PJ were Demry Croft and walk-on Connor Rhoda. QB is the most important position on the team. That situation alone means PJ didn’t inherit a 9 win team.

Among DL not passed on to PJ were Gaelin Elmore, Scott Ekpe, Hendrick Ekpe and Yoshoub Times and Tamarion Johnson. Among OL not passed on were Jonah Pirsig, Tyler Moore and Connor Mayes. Linebackers not passed on included Jack Lynn and Nick Rallis. WR Drew Wolitasky was not passed on (but PJ did inherit the next wave: Rashad Still, Hunter Register and Melvin Holland😒). Defensive backs not passed on include Jalen Myrick, Ace Rogers, Dior Johnson, Kiante Hardin, Ray Buford (and others); Brandon Lingen at TE wasn’t passed on. I’ve named only some players who were significant contributors or who were thought to have starter potential. Many others on the roster also didn’t get passed on.

You and I can respectfully disagree whether PJ inherited a 9 win team. I respect the efforts and importance of the many 2016 team members I named above. If you feel that those named players weren’t important to the team’s success, meaning that PJ inherited a 9 win team, so be it.
 


Back to the OP - is anyone excited because we didn't lost to IA by as many points this year?

If a previous coach had tried that line, there would posters on here having aneurysms.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Back to the OP - is anyone excited because we didn't lost to IA by as many points this year?

If a previous coach had tried that line, there would posters on here having aneurysms.
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I am not excited at all that we "almost" won or we are getting closer to IA.
For him to use that line 5 years into his tenure is complete horsesh!t.
 
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Gophergrandpa said:
Whatever you think of Mitch Leidner (I liked him a lot), the QBs inherited by PJ were Demry Croft and walk-on Connor Rhoda. QB is the most important position on the team. That situation alone means PJ didn’t inherit a 9 win team.

Among DL not passed on to PJ were Gaelin Elmore, Scott Ekpe, Hendrick Ekpe and Yoshoub Times and Tamarion Johnson. Among OL not passed on were Jonah Pirsig, Tyler Moore and Connor Mayes. Linebackers not passed on included Jack Lynn and Nick Rallis. WR Drew Wolitasky was not passed on (but PJ did inherit the next wave: Rashad Still, Hunter Register and Melvin Holland😒). Defensive backs not passed on include Jalen Myrick, Ace Rogers, Dior Johnson, Kiante Hardin, Ray Buford (and others); Brandon Lingen at TE wasn’t passed on. I’ve named only some players who were significant contributors or who were thought to have starter potential. Many others on the roster also didn’t get passed on.

You and I can respectfully disagree whether PJ inherited a 9 win team. I respect the efforts and importance of the many 2016 team members I named above. If you feel that those named players weren’t important to the team’s success, meaning that PJ inherited a 9 win team, so be it.
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Coaches should have the freedom to do it their way...PJ has his philosophy...Claeys had his.
I think under Claeys Seth Green and the JC transfer would have battled to run the offense.

My point: it is a major advantage to take over a program that has just won 9 games and consistently been to bowl games versus a program that Kill/Claeys inherited that didn't go to bowl games.

Yes, I think these guys were far more important...The linebackers Barber, Martin, Celestin, Coughlin, Cashman, Rodney, Shannon, Seth, Tyler, Winfield, Renner, the offensive linemen, DeLat, the Huffs...those aren't just bodies...those were leaders and mainstays....and I'm sure my list isn't complete either.
Program was highest ever academically....there was a lot in place.
 



60's Guy said:
Coaches should have the freedom to do it their way...PJ has his philosophy...Claeys had his.
I think under Claeys Seth Green and the JC transfer would have battled to run the offense.

My point: it is a major advantage to take over a program that has just won 9 games and consistently been to bowl games versus a program that Kill/Claeys inherited that didn't go to bowl games.

Yes, I think these guys were far more important...The linebackers Barber, Martin, Celestin, Coughlin, Cashman, Rodney, Shannon, Seth, Tyler, Winfield, Renner, the offensive linemen, DeLat, the Huffs...those aren't just bodies...those were leaders and mainstays....and I'm sure my list isn't complete either.
Program was highest ever academically....there was a lot in place.
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I'd agree with this if the program was healthy in all aspects.

But the program obviously was not healthy when PJ came here and that was evident if anyone read newspapers that year.
 

60's Guy said:
Coaches should have the freedom to do it their way...PJ has his philosophy...Claeys had his.
I think under Claeys Seth Green and the JC transfer would have battled to run the offense.

My point: it is a major advantage to take over a program that has just won 9 games and consistently been to bowl games versus a program that Kill/Claeys inherited that didn't go to bowl games.

Yes, I think these guys were far more important...The linebackers Barber, Martin, Celestin, Coughlin, Cashman, Rodney, Shannon, Seth, Tyler, Winfield, Renner, the offensive linemen, DeLat, the Huffs...those aren't just bodies...those were leaders and mainstays....and I'm sure my list isn't complete either.
Program was highest ever academically....there was a lot in place.
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Brewster went to bowl games 2 out 3 years prior to Kill taking over.
 

60's Guy said:
Coaches should have the freedom to do it their way...PJ has his philosophy...Claeys had his.
I think under Claeys Seth Green and the JC transfer would have battled to run the offense.

My point: it is a major advantage to take over a program that has just won 9 games and consistently been to bowl games versus a program that Kill/Claeys inherited that didn't go to bowl games.

Yes, I think these guys were far more important...The linebackers Barber, Martin, Celestin, Coughlin, Cashman, Rodney, Shannon, Seth, Tyler, Winfield, Renner, the offensive linemen, DeLat, the Huffs...those aren't just bodies...those were leaders and mainstays....and I'm sure my list isn't complete either.
Program was highest ever academically....there was a lot in place.
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The 2016 class produced a lot of good football players. In 2017 those players were Redshirt Freshman or Sophomores. They were far from becoming the leaders and mainstays they became over the course of their careers.

But go ahead and keep pretending the 2017 squad was loaded and ready to be a great team if only we hadn't gotten rid of Claeys.

Good lord this is such a tired and stupid argument. The 2017 team was going to struggle, no matter who the coach was.....why that is so hard for some on here to accept is just sad at this point.
 

MNVCGUY said:
The 2016 class produced a lot of good football players. In 2017 those players were Redshirt Freshman or Sophomores. They were far from becoming the leaders and mainstays they became over the course of their careers.

But go ahead and keep pretending the 2017 squad was loaded and ready to be a great team if only we hadn't gotten rid of Claeys.

Good lord this is such a tired and stupid argument. The 2017 team was going to struggle, no matter who the coach was.....why that is so hard for some on here to accept is just sad at this point.
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Not to mention the 2017 class Claeys had recruited was historically bad, ranked dead last by far in the B1G, and none of those players panned out to be anything after Fleck pushed them out the door.

The only player that was good was Andries, who Fleck kept. In just 3 weeks Fleck was able to add Ibrahim, Morgan, Autman-Bell, Michael Schmitz, Mafe, Otomewo, and DD. Where would we have been without those players the last several years?

Thinking the offense would have been better with Seth Green or the JUCO player that didn't go to class playing QB is one of the dumbest takes on this board.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Not to mention the 2017 class Claeys had recruited was historically bad, ranked dead last by far in the B1G, and none of those players panned out to be anything after Fleck pushed them out the door.

The only player that was good was Andries, who Fleck kept. In just 3 weeks Fleck was able to add Ibrahim, Morgan, Autman-Bell, Michael Schmitz, Mafe, Otomewo, and DD. Where would we have been without those players the last several years?

Thinking the offense would have been better with Seth Green or the JUCO player that didn't go to class playing QB is one of the dumbest takes on this board.
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It is also well documented that Fleck had to convince Winfield to stay after he was caught up in the legal mess from 2016.

In fairness, there are just a couple posters still living in the fantasy world that the 2017 team was destined for greatness. But they bring it up every chance they get and use it as their way of attacking Fleck with the whole "he inherited a 9 win team" garbage....when the correct line should be he inherited a very flawed team that won 9 years the year before he got there.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Not to mention the 2017 class Claeys had recruited was historically bad, ranked dead last by far in the B1G, and none of those players panned out to be anything after Fleck pushed them out the door.

The only player that was good was Andries, who Fleck kept. In just 3 weeks Fleck was able to add Ibrahim, Morgan, Autman-Bell, Michael Schmitz, Mafe, Otomewo, and DD. Where would we have been without those players the last several years?

Thinking the offense would have been better with Seth Green or the JUCO player that didn't go to class playing QB is one of the dumbest takes on this board.
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Raheem Layne was a recruit who is a Fleck decommitment at Indiana and will play against the Gophers this weekend.
#0
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Not to mention the 2017 class Claeys had recruited was historically bad, ranked dead last by far in the B1G, and none of those players panned out to be anything after Fleck pushed them out the door.

The only player that was good was Andries, who Fleck kept. In just 3 weeks Fleck was able to add Ibrahim, Morgan, Autman-Bell, Michael Schmitz, Mafe, Otomewo, and DD. Where would we have been without those players the last several years?

Thinking the offense would have been better with Seth Green or the JUCO player that didn't go to class playing QB is one of the dumbest takes on this board.
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MNVCGUY said:
The 2016 class produced a lot of good football players. In 2017 those players were Redshirt Freshman or Sophomores. They were far from becoming the leaders and mainstays they became over the course of their careers.

But go ahead and keep pretending the 2017 squad was loaded and ready to be a great team if only we hadn't gotten rid of Claeys.
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Fellas, you know, pretty much all the things you bring up, I didn't say. You have a very hard time believing PJ could do anything wrong. What I tried to say was I thought there were some players to work with in an atmosphere that was largely admirable and in place. Disciple and academics in order with the exception of one night.

That Tracy and PJ had different plans offensively and PJ should have the leeway to implement his way. Tracy encouraged Rhoda not to play...they clearly had different offenses in mind. I don't know that Tracy's plan would have worked but I'm not willing to say it would have resulted in a worse record that season than PJ. I'll agree it would have been surprising if we had another 9 win season with Tracy at the helm in PJ's first year.

Of All the coaches in the Big Ten...I would probably choose PJ as my choice to coach the Gophers.
That does not mean he isn't flawed and almost constantly annoying to me with his half truths and exaggerations. It also does not mean this season has not been very frustrating. He has coached better in his lifetime than this year.

It's a message board. I give my opinion, you give yours. It's not like I agree with all your
conclusions either, you know? Just try not to argue stuff I didn't say and you concluded through your PJ glasses.
 

60's Guy said:
That Tracy and PJ had different plans offensively and PJ should have the leeway to implement his way. Tracy encouraged Rhoda not to play...they clearly had different offenses in mind. I don't know that Tracy's plan would have worked but I'm not willing to say it would have resulted in a worse record that season than PJ. I'll agree it would have been surprising if we had another 9 win season with Tracy at the helm in PJ's first year.
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It isn't about thinking that PJ can do no wrong it is about being realistic about the state of the program when he took over.

The part above is fair but it isn't what is used when people talk about Fleck inheriting a 9 win team. They use that to try and say he was a failure in 2017 because the 9 win team he inherited only won 5 games.

I think it is highly likely that if Claeys had been the head coach the win total would have been within a game of that 5 number one way or the other. It was going to be a very mediocre year. The foundation was in much better shape for Fleck than it was for Kill (that is the main reason why 2019 was even possible) but there was still a lot of work to be done.

It is a tired argument but one that keeps on coming up because a handful of posters refuse to move past the previous regime and look to the future.
 

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