I don’t agree with Fleck “We got closer, and you’ve got to get closer before you can get over it."

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It is not only the players that are graduating that we have to worry about.

We also have to worry about the coaching exodus.

Fleck has to be careful with his stubbornness. There is a high price to pay when things turn ugly with a three-game losing streak to finish the season.

Turn this season around. Make us believers again.

Beat Indiana! Beat Wisconsin! Don't leave anything on the table with a conservative and play-not-to-lose scheme. Play real championship games not just by mantra.
 
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What is standing out to many of us in this season of partial discontent is Fleck's extreme stubborness
 


hungan1 said:
It is not only the players that are graduating that we have to worry about.

We also have to worry about the coaching exodus.

Fleck has to be careful with his stubbornness. There is a high price to pay when things turn ugly with a three-game losing streak to finish the season.

Turn this season around. Make us believers again.

Beat Indiana! Beat Wisconsin! Don't leave anything on the table with a conservative and play-not-to-lose scheme. Play real championship games not just by mantra.
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This is what worries me. It wouldnt surprise me if some of the key coaching staff leaves after a season with so much promise and potential.

PJ was like a deer in headlights during crucial moments/games this year.

he was too much of a coward to make tough decisions to either bench a player who wasnt performing or make a coordinator who is making his players worse change his best.
 



Face The Facts said:
I don't know if anyone really wants to understand the context of what he might mean by this.
But if you are going to play in a lot of games with Iowa, and many are 22-27 with lead changes, you're going to win some of those over time.

If you are going to fall behind by 2-3 TD's every time you play a team, then you probably are going to lose the majority of those games and may never win any.

Yeh, losing to IA for whatever number straight years is not the result you want, but the fact you physically matched up with Iowa for the first time, and that your talent levels across the roster are probably as similar as they've been in 10 years, is a good thing and is a step in the right direction.

Still think the QB / OC needs a second look however.
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Yeah people that don’t get his response from a question he was answering aren’t very smart
 





Ozzy&Ray said:
They were 9-4 in 2016. Thus, he took over a program that was 9-4 the year before he arrived.
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PJ took over the program name and some of the players. He did not take over the many of the contributing players on that 9-4 team. You are talking language formality that ignores substance; the guys countering you are talking substance. You’re both right in your particular ways. But I always go with the guys who talk substance and reality over those who speak misleading literalism that is counter to actual substance and physical reality. I’m not defending PJ; I am defending logic and rationality.
 

I will accept this answer if Fleck could help me better understand how close we are. Is it next year? 2 years? What're we talking here.
 

I like Fleck but down right angry the OC sucks so badly and it appears he will not make the necessary change. Now, Just waiting for the WI game to see our OC play calling piss that one away as well.
 





WorkingMyTailOff said:
Right? The QB and OLine groups were completely empty/not good.
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Yeah. I ripped ML7 as much as anyone at the time but there was never a time where Rhoda or Croft was going to lead any big ten team to a 9 win season. Nor Seth green QB

Going 8-4 with Mitch as a 3rd year starter was actually kind of disappointing (kind of like this year).
 

I can only quote Glenny Mason “you are either getting better or you are getting worse”. My 24 hours of grieving are over. mic drop ….
 

Several have asked PJ to really open up the playbook but he always responds we only do as much as the players can absorb. With the number of upper class players when will we be smart enough to absorb? I’m not sure PJ is smart enough to take advantage of the number of Seniors/ upper class men. And it’s obvious he has not surrendered himself with football genius.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Thus the team that he inherited wasn't 9-4, as I said.
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Ok. So he was fortunate to inherit a ton of talent that contributed to 2019. The defense was overwhelmingly inherited players, he inherited a number of linemen, a couple still contributing, running backs, and and an NFL receiver in Johnson. He should get credit for what he did with that talent, and the players he added to that inherited talent.

All that said, the program in 2016 was 9-4. Five years in and his record will be worse than the year prior to his arriving. That is not a lot of progress in fiver years. It is, at best, holding status quo.
 




We got close = There's always next year. 😡
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
Ok. So he was fortunate to inherit a ton of talent that contributed to 2019. The defense was overwhelmingly inherited players, he inherited a number of linemen, a couple still contributing, running backs, and and an NFL receiver in Johnson. He should get credit for what he did with that talent, and the players he added to that inherited talent.

All that said, the program in 2016 was 9-4. Five years in and his record will be worse than the year prior to his arriving. That is not a lot of progress in fiver years. It is, at best, holding status quo.
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A ton? He inherited very little on offense. He did inherit talent on defense, led by Winfield Jr, who Fleck had to convince to stay.

You have an obsession with the 9-4 season because of your passion for Claeys, and ignore the 11-2 season because of your hatred for Fleck.

This year's defense is better than it was in 2019 and at any point during the Kill/Claeys era, with all but one of the players being PJ's recruits. He has some work to do on offense again, but I'm sure he'll figure it out.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
A ton? He inherited very little on offense. He did inherit talent on defense, led by Winfield Jr, who Fleck had to convince to stay.

You have an obsession with the 9-4 season because of your passion for Claeys, and ignore the 11-2 season because of your hatred for Fleck.

This year's defense is better than it was in 2019 and at any point during the Kill/Claeys era, with all but one of the players being PJ's recruits. He has some work to do on offense again, but I'm sure he'll figure it out.
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I don't ignore the 2019 season at all. I wrote as much. I also don't have a love for Claeys. He wasn't probably a long-term answer. He was our coach so I supported him. You didn't. The fact you think this year's defense is better than 2019 is funny - they were good in 2019 and are this year, with this year's defense having the benefit of playing against really bad offenses and taking advantage of that by shutting them down. They are also not better than at any point during Kill/Claeys era, but no need to debate that - Kill/Claeys had some good defenses, and so is this year, as it was in 2019.

I'm glad you think he'll figure out the offense. I haven't seen any evidence of that - they have been awful since losing KC. I hope they do though. At this point, the program is right where it was when Fleck took over. In fact, it looks kind of similar with a struggling, overly conservative offense, and pretty good defense.
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
I don't ignore the 2019 season at all. I wrote as much. I also don't have a love for Claeys. He wasn't probably a long-term answer. He was our coach so I supported him. You didn't. The fact you think this year's defense is better than 2019 is funny - they were good in 2019 and are this year, with this year's defense having the benefit of playing against really bad offenses and taking advantage of that by shutting them down. They are also not better than at any point during Kill/Claeys era, but no need to debate that - Kill/Claeys had some good defenses, and so is this year, as it was in 2019.

I'm glad you think he'll figure out the offense. I haven't seen any evidence of that - they have been awful since losing KC. I hope they do though. At this point, the program is right where it was when Fleck took over. In fact, it looks kind of similar with a struggling, overly conservative offense, and pretty good defense.
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How has Fleck only held serve when he already had an 11 win season? Because specifically year five wasn’t better than the best of Kill/Claeys that means no progress was made? Why is this specific year the measuring stick?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
A ton? He inherited very little on offense. He did inherit talent on defense, led by Winfield Jr, who Fleck had to convince to stay.

You have an obsession with the 9-4 season because of your passion for Claeys, and ignore the 11-2 season because of your hatred for Fleck.

This year's defense is better than it was in 2019 and at any point during the Kill/Claeys era, with all but one of the players being PJ's recruits. He has some work to do on offense again, but I'm sure he'll figure it out.
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Ya, how many offensive linemen that still play today? Tyler, Rodney, Shannon to name a couple more.
 

Gophergrandpa said:
PJ took over the program name and some of the players. He did not take over the many of the contributing players on that 9-4 team. You are talking language formality that ignores substance; the guys countering you are talking substance. You’re both right in your particular ways. But I always go with the guys who talk substance and reality over those who speak misleading literalism that is counter to actual substance and physical reality. I’m not defending PJ; I am defending logic and rationality.
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Your logic is bullshit....Devers, Renner, Witham, Conner Olson, Weyler, Kamal Martin, DeLattiboudere, Tyler Coughlin, Shenault, Blake Cashman, Barber, Ko Kieft,
Shannon and Rodney, Tyler Johnson, Winfield, Celestin, Durr, Seth Green, the Huff Bros, Howard and Swenson just to name a few along with Andries all have helped PJ among some I forgot.
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
I don't ignore the 2019 season at all. I wrote as much. I also don't have a love for Claeys. He wasn't probably a long-term answer. He was our coach so I supported him. You didn't. The fact you think this year's defense is better than 2019 is funny - they were good in 2019 and are this year, with this year's defense having the benefit of playing against really bad offenses and taking advantage of that by shutting them down. They are also not better than at any point during Kill/Claeys era, but no need to debate that - Kill/Claeys had some good defenses, and so is this year, as it was in 2019.

I'm glad you think he'll figure out the offense. I haven't seen any evidence of that - they have been awful since losing KC. I hope they do though. At this point, the program is right where it was when Fleck took over. In fact, it looks kind of similar with a struggling, overly conservative offense, and pretty good defense.
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The 2019 and 2016 defenses also played plenty of bad offenses and gave up more points. This defense is better than any we've had under Kill/Claeys, and it's funny that you can't admit that. I supported Claeys during that season, but it was very obvious from the start that he was not a long term solution.

This season has been frustrating and disappointing but I still think the program is on more solid ground than ever. PJ wasn't going to come in and win 9-10+ games every season. Wisconsin and Iowa don't do that either.
 

Rowthatboat said:
The Gophers return more than enough? I don't see it. Can you share some of your insight?
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A lot of this year's backups have played in games, and played well. We'll see who returns for the OL. Some that are listed as SRs can still come back next season.

I like our depth at RB, DL, and LB. The WRs outside of CAB are young. We need to see what a new QB can do. I think Fleck will use the transfer portal wisely again and fill in the gaps. There's a lot to be optimistic about.

All of the good college programs lose great players every season. The ability to reload keeps those programs at the top. I think the depth here is as good as it has ever been, and we've seen that at the RB position this season.
 

60's Guy said:
Ya, how many offensive linemen that still play today? Tyler, Rodney, Shannon to name a couple more.
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Rodney Smith was good, but he missed nearly all of 2018, the year they beat Wisconsin. Shannon couldn't stay healthy. Tyler Johnson didn't look great at WR his one season prior to PJ, and Fleck considered moving him to safety. Kudos to Fleck's staff and TJ's work effort for developing into a NFL WR.

Connor Olson has been good, Schlueter has been up and down. Andries was committed but PJ had to keep him when he took over. The rest are PJ guys and the development of the OL has improved significantly over Kill's days, back to where it was during the Mason days.
 

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