HS Football Update - sort of

[Gophers_4life]

And of course if not for open enrollment, Minnetonka would be a similar size if not smaller than Hopkins.

I believe the largest chunk of the City of Minnetonka proper is covered by the Hopkins district.

District and city boundaries are messed up (in a sense) all over the metro. I believe this has been talked about in various threads on here before.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Correct, but with five high schools in the district, they can shift boundaries as needed to spread intra-district enrollment. There will be some who move into the Andover attendance area today that might not be in 15 years. This is the scenario I mentioned about Maple Grove to Osseo to Park Center.

So, Andover residents fought to get their own school, tired of overcrowding at Anoka and Blaine, and to have their own sense of community pride ... but now that it has been here 20 years, they refuse to expand it, the district isn't going to build a sixth high school, and people moving into Andover may still be forced to attend Coon Rapids or Anoka?

 

[Gophers_4life]

Having perceived competitiveness being a larger part of class assignment, rather than strictly going by size, would of course yield better results were it possible to do such a thing. But I simply can't imagine MSHSL would ever want to spend the time and resources it would take to do that meaningfully. Just imagine the lobbying and politicking that would take place.

I'm not saying it would be the best way or even necessarily "good", but it would be quite simple to form a committee of folks who watch film of the previous season and simply decide based on talking it out amongst themselves a proper grouping, based on what they see on the tape.

Similar to a CFP committee in college football.

 

[Gopherwatcher]

I'm not saying it would be the best way or even necessarily "good", but it would be quite simple to form a committee of folks who watch film of the previous season and simply decide based on talking it out amongst themselves a proper grouping, based on what they see on the tape.

Similar to a CFP committee in college football.

No chance of that. The only way anything remotely close to that happening would be based on "points". It would be a 2-year cycle. If you win a state title, you get x points. You make it to state final, you get x points. You win your section you get x points. You accumulate a certain number of points over the 2-year cycle and you get bumped up a class for the following 2-year cycle. This is how Indiana does it. I'll attach it below. They actually do it for many sports, not just football.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/Tournament%20Success%20Factor.pdf

 

[disco]

So, Andover residents fought to get their own school, tired of overcrowding at Anoka and Blaine, and to have their own sense of community pride ... but now that it has been here 20 years, they refuse to expand it, the district isn't going to build a sixth high school, and people moving into Andover may still be forced to attend Coon Rapids or Anoka?

Districts change intradistrict attendance boundaries all the time, and inevitably, parents get upset when it happens. I'm assuming that most of the new growth is in the northernmost part of the district. As a result, in a few years, it's reasonable to assume that people currently in the southern part of the Andover attendance area will be forced to move to Anoka or Blaine high schools.

Just as in the Osseo district, it's reasonable to assume that people in the eastern part of the Maple Grove attendance area will be moved to the Osseo attendance area, and the eastern part of the Osseo area to the Park Center attendance area since the growth is on the far western edge of the district.

I think people are very naive if they think there is a guarantee that in a district with multiple schools, that they will always be in the same attendance area. As we've discussed before, there is no requirement that districts allow intradistrict open enrollment.

 

[disco]

Wonder if that last bit has to do with how much consolidation Hopkins has gone through in the last XX years? Absorbed Golden Valley. So perhaps have the buildings they have and just can't fit 9-12 properly, without needing to just start over or do a major addition that isn't realistic with the real estate they have?

Just spitballing.

Of course, they used to have two high schools back in the day. The other one now I believe is a community center.

Golden Valley high school closed in 1980. I can't remember when Eisenhower and Lindbergh merged back into Hopkins but it was in the 80's. Not exactly recent history.

 

[disco]

With Hopkins, I don't think you can overstate the demographic/economic challenges they face. For a variety of reasons, a lot of the kids from more affluent families in the district attend school elsewhere, many of the students they do have don't live within district boundaries, and a lot of them are from families facing economic or other challenges that make it less likely they'd be heavily involved in youth athletics. Realistically they are not going to have developmental programs and support systems even remotely comparable to neighboring schools like Wayzata and Minnetonka. The 10-12 thing is in fact finally changing, and that might help but I don't think that would be one of the main factors for their struggles.

I'm aware. I work in Hopkins. Live in Minnetonka, but in the Wayzata district. I live very close to the district border with Hopkins. The Hopkins bus drives by my house every day.

Let's just tell it like it is. The variety of reasons is because a large number don't want their kids going to school with kids from Minneapolis, or the kids from the low income apartment complexes in and around Hopkins proper. If there were no open enrollment, Hopkins would be a larger, wealthier school, and Minnetonka would be a considerably smaller school.

The wealthier people in the Hopkins district are largely sending their kids to Minnetonka, which is ~40% open enrollment, and a lot of that is from the Hopkins district. They're getting backfilled with kids from Minneapolis.

I believe the largest chunk of the City of Minnetonka proper is covered by the Hopkins district.

It is. The City of Minnetonka is served by Minnetonka, Wayzata, Hopkins and Eden Prairie schools.

The Minnetonka school district serves all or part of ten different cities.

 

[disco]

while Two Rivers, which has won five games in five seasons, is finally playing more schools it should be competitive with - five of their 2023 games are against Mpls or St. Paul teams.

How did Two Rivers get so bad?

 

[Gophers_4life]

Golden Valley high school closed in 1980. I can't remember when Eisenhower and Lindbergh merged back into Hopkins but it was in the 80's. Not exactly recent history.

But my point holds if they haven't built any new buildings (or done any major expansions) that serve the middle/jr/high school student population since then. They may have, I'm just making the point, if they haven't.

If the building occupancy limit (fire code) is 750, and you have say 220 per class that's 660 students then plus teachers and admin, for three grades, you can't just shove another grade in there.

That kind of thing.

 

[disco]

But my point holds if they haven't built any new buildings (or done any major expansions) that serve the middle/jr/high school student population since then. They may have, I'm just making the point, if they haven't.

If the building occupancy limit (fire code) is 750, and you have say 220 per class that's 660 students then plus teachers and admin, for three grades, you can't just shove another grade in there.

That kind of thing.

Oh, yes, that makes sense. I'm sure they've worked that out somehow as they are making the switch finally.

Hopkins high is a pretty huge building. My kid used to take Tae Kwon Doe lessons there.

 

[xyz1]

How did Two Rivers get so bad?

Lots of reasons, but most prominently (a) many of the better athletes from Mendota Heights/WSP end up at Cretin or STA (starting MLB and QB at STA last year attended ISD197 schools through 8th grade), and (b) lack of community support for/interest in football. MH has youth football at grades 4-6 but only program in community in 7th/8th grade is a middle school program that lasts about 6 weeks and is not at all serious.

They do have a new co-head coach (Bruce Carpenter, formerly OC at U of St Thomas) who is already doing tons of stuff to build up program and community support so there may be brighter days ahead.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Districts change intradistrict attendance boundaries all the time, and inevitably, parents get upset when it happens. I'm assuming that most of the new growth is in the northernmost part of the district. As a result, in a few years, it's reasonable to assume that people currently in the southern part of the Andover attendance area will be forced to move to Anoka or Blaine high schools.

Just as in the Osseo district, it's reasonable to assume that people in the eastern part of the Maple Grove attendance area will be moved to the Osseo attendance area, and the eastern part of the Osseo area to the Park Center attendance area since the growth is on the far western edge of the district.

I think people are very naive if they think there is a guarantee that in a district with multiple schools, that they will always be in the same attendance area. As we've discussed before, there is no requirement that districts allow intradistrict open enrollment.

Sure, and I recall this discussion.

I think, if they wanted to, the City of Andover and parents in the city should have a legal mechanism to be able to secede from Anoka district to form their own district, with boundaries contiguous to the city. (Apparently this would also require a small northern part of the city to secede from St Francis district)

 

[disco]

Sure, and I recall this discussion.

I think, if they wanted to, the City of Andover and parents in the city should have a legal mechanism to be able to secede from Anoka district to form their own district, with boundaries contiguous to the city. (Apparently this would also require a small northern part of the city to secede from St Francis district)

There is. But the Anoka-Hennepin district would have to approve it under state law. They would never do so because they'd lose tax money.
This was discussed before.

Hopkins rejects school district switch by Edina neighborhood

Edina group vows to escalate fight after Hopkins board's decision.

www.startribune.com

 

[Gophers_4life]

There is. But the Anoka-Hennepin district would have to approve it under state law. They would never do so because they'd lose tax money.
This was discussed before.

Hopkins rejects school district switch by Edina neighborhood

Edina group vows to escalate fight after Hopkins board's decision.

www.startribune.com

Clearly this is not a satisfactory mechanism. I want a new one.

Doesn't matter if it will never come to pass. We can leave it at that.

 

[fatgopher]

I'm aware. I work in Hopkins. Live in Minnetonka, but in the Wayzata district. I live very close to the district border with Hopkins. The Hopkins bus drives by my house every day.

Let's just tell it like it is. The variety of reasons is because a large number don't want their kids going to school with kids from Minneapolis, or the kids from the low income apartment complexes in and around Hopkins proper. If there were no open enrollment, Hopkins would be a larger, wealthier school, and Minnetonka would be a considerably smaller school.

The wealthier people in the Hopkins district are largely sending their kids to Minnetonka, which is ~40% open enrollment, and a lot of that is from the Hopkins district. They're getting backfilled with kids from Minneapolis.


It is. The City of Minnetonka is served by Minnetonka, Wayzata, Hopkins and Eden Prairie schools.

The Minnetonka school district serves all or part of ten different cities.

There is a small part of Eden Prairie (city) served by Minnetonka Schools. I don't believe any portion of Minnetonka (city) is in the Eden Prairie School boundary.

EPPS boundaries

 

[disco]

So, now that there is no free/reduced lunch - all students get free lunch - how will the brainwizards at the MSHSL factor their enrollment going forward?

 

[UST82Gopher]

Lots of reasons, but most prominently (a) many of the better athletes from Mendota Heights/WSP end up at Cretin or STA (starting MLB and QB at STA last year attended ISD197 schools through 8th grade), and (b) lack of community support for/interest in football. MH has youth football at grades 4-6 but only program in community in 7th/8th grade is a middle school program that lasts about 6 weeks and is not at all serious.

They do have a new co-head coach (Bruce Carpenter, formerly OC at U of St Thomas) who is already doing tons of stuff to build up program and community support so there may be brighter days ahead.

One of the things that makes ISD 197 unique is St Joes - a HUGE Catholic Grade school - that sends almost all their kids to STA, Cretin, and other private / Catholic high schools. Those kids have never been really in the ISD 197 schools system, but participate extensively in the Mendota Hts/WSP youth program. So, when high school comes, the kids split leaving Sibley High School (can't do the Two Rivers thing) short handed.

 

[Some guy]

So, now that there is no free/reduced lunch - all students get free lunch - how will the brainwizards at the MSHSL factor their enrollment going forward?

The new education bill that passed the other day no longer requires families to register as free/reduced

People that qualify are automatically registered. This could actually have a huge impact on enrollment as some families schools have to convince them to apply. Will have huge funding implications, will also impact “enrollments”

 

[Gopherwatcher]

The new education bill that passed the other day no longer requires families to register as free/reduced

People that qualify are automatically registered. This could actually have a huge impact on enrollment as some families schools have to convince them to apply. Will have huge funding implications, will also impact “enrollments”

This actually started last fall. Some families are what’s called direct certs from the state but by no means does that cover every family that actually meets the qualifications for ”educational benefits”. (Thats the new term for it).

For instance, last fall, our school was able to direct cert about 29% of our students, but after getting more families to fill out the form, we climbed to about 42%. So schools will still have to beg families to fill out that form because schools get increased funding for every student that qualifies, and it will be more difficult now because many didn’t fill it out until they received a lunch bill. Then they wouled.
Here is the new form for next school year that shows who automatically qualifies. Hopefully the link works.

https://education.mn.gov/mdeprod/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dDocName=055492&RevisionSelectionMethod=latestReleased&Rendition=primary

 

[Gophers_4life]

Do "educational benefits" families tend to play football less? I think that entirely depends on the race/ethnicity/culture of the family.

If we're talking Black families -- slave decendent, not Somali -- then I wild guess the reduction is less than for example Hispanic.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Districts change intradistrict attendance boundaries all the time, and inevitably, parents get upset when it happens. I'm assuming that most of the new growth is in the northernmost part of the district. As a result, in a few years, it's reasonable to assume that people currently in the southern part of the Andover attendance area will be forced to move to Anoka or Blaine high schools.

Just as in the Osseo district, it's reasonable to assume that people in the eastern part of the Maple Grove attendance area will be moved to the Osseo attendance area, and the eastern part of the Osseo area to the Park Center attendance area since the growth is on the far western edge of the district.

I think people are very naive if they think there is a guarantee that in a district with multiple schools, that they will always be in the same attendance area. As we've discussed before, there is no requirement that districts allow intradistrict open enrollment.

All the growth is in Eastern Blaine {Blaine), Ramsey (Anoka), and Andover. Only choice is to add on to the schools or force kids to Coon Rapids.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Totino shared 4A schedule

Fridley
Simley . Defending champ
Hutch. Runner up
Benilde
Holy Angels
SMB
Orono
Willmar

 

[Gophers_4life]

All the growth is in Eastern Blaine {Blaine), Ramsey (Anoka), and Andover. Only choice is to add on to the schools or force kids to Coon Rapids.

Anoka used to be a massive school before Andover opened. As did Blaine.

Would be interesting to know the official capacities of the five HS's.

 

[disco]

Anoka used to be a massive school before Andover opened. As did Blaine.

Would be interesting to know the official capacities of the five HS's.

When I was in high school, Anoka was the largest HS in the state. I think Blaine and Coon Rapids were top five. This was before Champlin Park opened. Burnsville was up there as well.

 

[disco]

All the growth is in Eastern Blaine {Blaine), Ramsey (Anoka), and Andover. Only choice is to add on to the schools or force kids to Coon Rapids.

Some of that area in Eastern Blaine is in the Spring Lake Park district too.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

doing classes by enrollment may not be a perfect solution, but it's simple and - at least on paper - it's "fair." and that is what the MSHSL wants. especially the simple part.

If you try to classify based on a school's ethnic or economic makeup, that creates a whole different set of issues.

some districts are just going to be better at certain sports, because they happen to have better athletes, better coaches, better facilities and a winning tradition. some of it is just the genetic luck of the draw. I live in a district that just doesn't have a lot of big or tall kids, so the football team is always struggling to find linemen. there is no formula or system that can equalize that situation.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Some of that area in Eastern Blaine is in the Spring Lake Park district too.

However, the housing is all going up in Blaine's area, which can't go to Spring Lake Park. The elementary school built in 2019 is already getting 8 classrooms added to it and they did an emergency redraw of Middle School and Elementary areas this last year.

 

[Gophers_4life]

However, the housing is all going up in Blaine's area, which can't go to Spring Lake Park. The elementary school built in 2019 is already getting 8 classrooms added to it and they did an emergency redraw of Middle School and Elementary areas this last year.

I would think far more kids with Blaine addresses open enroll into Blaine or Centennial HS, as opposed to having to crawl down Hwy 65 (traffic) to go to "ghetto" SLP.

 

[disco]

I would think far more kids with Blaine addresses open enroll into Blaine or Centennial HS, as opposed to having to crawl down Hwy 65 (traffic) to go to "ghetto" SLP.

SLP isn't "ghetto" anymore. Back when I was in school, and probably until a few years ago, it seemed to be along the same lines as Columbia Heights and Fridley. There's a lot more growth and a lot more money in the Spring Lake Park district now. I know a number of people who live there and wouldn't dream of sending their kids to Blaine.

 

[Gophers_4life]

SLP isn't "ghetto" anymore. Back when I was in school, and probably until a few years ago, it seemed to be along the same lines as Columbia Heights and Fridley. There's a lot more growth and a lot more money in the Spring Lake Park district now. I know a number of people who live there and wouldn't dream of sending their kids to Blaine.

Unless they’re building a brand new, nice high school building up in Blaine, the old site in SLP proper — as you say, it’s the same thing as Fridley and Columbia Heights.

Which are actually just fine schools. Note the use of quotation marks.

Kids who grow up in neighborhoods where literally every house and strip mall/box store has been built new in the last 10 years, think anything old is “ghetto”.