Gophs recruiting at a MAC level??

[Digger01]

No reason to defend Kill by diminishing Brewster. Brew recruited great at MN...couldn't coach or run a program...but he recruited. Kill isn't Brewster and he isn't Mason, he is Jerry Kill. I am perfectly fine in figuring that Kill is a better recruiter than Mason but not than Brewster and Kill is a better Coach than Brewster and has better assistants running the defense than Mason.

So if we get better players with similar quality offensive scheme/coaching and better defensive scheme/coaching that we got under Mason we should be better with Kill than with Mason...that is what I am hoping for. We are not going to be tOSU anytime soon...but we can have runs like Wisc and Ia and IMO Kill is the guy to get us there. Time will tell who is right or wrong...but this is how I choose to see and it until evidence says otherwise.

My perception of Brewster was that he went after the best players he could get.

My perception of Kill is that he's going after the best players he can get that will fit his program.

Assuming the players Brewster is/was able to recruit are more talented we have to judge and weigh whether it's more effective to recruit players that are the best fit in all aspects at the University of Minnesota and it's football program. I prefer a more consistent approach. I'd hate to point to Wisconsin as an example for us (ugh) but...um, yeah.

 

[corcoran1]

Some, sure. Why does everything have to be a completely black and white situation? I said Brewster won a ton of head-to-head recruiting matchups and you laughed it off like a *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ing joke. It's a basic fact.

According to Rivals:

Pirsig had offers from Ohio State, Auburn, Michigan, Michigan State, Iowa, Wisconsin, etc.

Hinojosa had offers from Michigan State and West Virginia

Hayes had offers from Virginia Tech and Oregon State

Harbison had offers from NC State, Vanderbilt, West Virginia, and Wake Forest

Williams had offers from Iowa and Utah

Compare that to the offer lists from some of Brewster's guys and it's not close. Traye Simmons had a Florida offer. Keanon Cooper had offers from Oklahoma and Miami. Brandon Green had offers from 6 Big Ten programs. Kevin Whaley had offers from Penn State, Virginia Tech, West Virginia and others. Sam Maresh had offers from Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Michigan State. Spencer Reeves had offers from Arkansas, Wisconsin, etc. And the list goes on.

Brewster has an undeniably *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ty coach who couldn't run a program. I think Kill will have much more success than he will. But it honestly makes me wonder if you follow the Gophers at all to be so callously snide about a such an undeniable true comment as that. Hate Brewster all you want, I certainly think he was a disaster of a hire, but that doesn't change the fact that he went into Texas and got commitments from players with Oklahoma offers and he went into Florida and got players with Miami and Florida offers. If Kill could do that combined with his coaching and developmental talents, we would be even better off.

I am not saying it can not be done your way, but it will not be done your way here without dropping several sports and greatly increasing the coaching budget, which Maturi has zero intention of doing. Virtually all of the programs you listed as being turned around through great recruiting exist in areas where there is enough talent within 250 miles to fill out a class for several teams every year. The entire SEC area is loaded with speed, and have high schools where football is a priority. The same with the Virginia, the Carolinas and California. I watched the California CIF championship game the other night and thought I was watching a college tryout, two five star offensive tackles, a BCS running back, some really good wide receivers, and a 6'3" QB that ran like Taylor Martinez. It was impressive.
Explain how Alvarez turned around Wisconsin or Ferentz turned around Iowa. When they did it they did not get four star recruits. In fact Alvarez said AFTER they won the Rose Bowl, they screwed up and started trying to compete directly with OSU,PSU, and Michigan for recruits and got their butts handed to them, so they went back to recruiting kids they could develop. (I heard him say it on WCCO about four years ago, perfectly clearly in English is just about exactly those words). You are right, Brewster did get a good bunch of recruits in his first year, but after that he was reaching, and it fell apart. He did not win a "ton" of head to head battles, with BCS schools, he probably won less than 15, maybe less than 10 in four years, outside the state. With the exception of several offensive linemen his last two classes were among the worst in gopher history. Really awful classes. If recruiting to Minnesota was as easy as you think where is the proof? The only example you have given which has any credibillity is Illinois, and Illinois still prodcues enough BCS level players to fill a couple of classes every year.
I believe Carl Sagan's saying is that" extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", I am claiming it can be done without kicking the recruiting butt of Top 25 teams. I don't think that is an extraordinary claim given what we have seen next door. You seem to be claiming it can not, which seems extraordinary to me.

 

[Killjoy]

Digger01

So many great responses on this thread!

I have witnessed a Gopher football program where the staff concentrated on establishing an effective style of offense suited to the type of players they were able to consistently attract to their program. However, the defensive side of the ball had only spotty success in the ability to attract or develop quality players. In addition, the raport that the head coach had with the local high school football programs in Minnesota was fractured and uncongenial.

I have witnessed a Gopher football program that was able to attract highly rated players from across the country. This program aggressively used techniques including offering scholarships to friends of top rated recruits just to sway those highly rated players. This program also entirely switched both offensive and defensive philosophies on an almost yearly basis.

I have witnessed a Gopher football program that has used a consistent approach to coaching and recruiting and a playing style for many years and have brought that system here. They have concentrated with an emphasis on recruiting players that exhibited qualities such speed, heart, passion and football intelligence. They have developed a good relationship with the local high school community and have shown a priority on convincing the top players best suited for their program to stay home.

At this point in the current state of Golden Gopher football it basically comes down to faith. From what I've witnessed over the years, the current approach from this staff seems to have the most substance. Watching how they have gone about their business, this looks to be the best business model I have seen in many years. I believe that this staff is using the best long lasting approach to building up a football program in Minnesota.

+1 -- I expect but I can't say for sure that you have expressed what many of us feel about the status of the program. The difference is that you did it a lot better than most of us.

 

[Maximus]

Brew recruited great at MN...couldn't coach or run a program...but he recruited.

Recruited great? As long as you ignore what those great recruits did AFTER they showed up on campus (if they showed up at all). How many of those recruits are you going to be telling your grandkids about?

 

[Gopherprof]

Let me be clear on a few things:

1) This discussion started when numerous people said that we couldn't recruit 4 star players here without winning. This is categorically false because Brewster did so, as have other coaches at other programs with limited success.

2) Brewster's way isn't "my way". I'm not saying Brewster's general approach to recruiting was a good one. I said that Brewster "won a lot of head-to-head battles" in recruiting. This is undeniably true, but someone else had to be a jackass and LOL my statement without having a clue what they were talking about.

3) I agree that Kill has a MUCH better overall plan than Brewster does (because Brewster had no consistent plan at all) and will be more successful than Brewster (how successful I'm not sure, but better than awful I'm certain)

4) That's a separate issue from the original point I made, which is that Brew could sell the program. He could convince players from places like Texas and Florida with offers from programs far bigger and more successful than ours to come here. That didn't make his overall recruiting plan a good one. It made him a good recruiter. There's a difference. That's why Mack Brown basically put Brew in charge of recruiting in Texas. That's also why he didn't give him the overall reigns to the program. Someone might be really good at selling cars, that doesn't mean I want them to fix my exhaust system when it's broken.

 

[Gopherprof]

He did not win a "ton" of head to head battles, with BCS schools, he probably won less than 15, maybe less than 10 in four years, outside the state.

You say 10-15 or less. Let's count.

1) Xzavian Brandon
2) Tramaine Brock
3) Terrell Combs
4) Keanon Cooper
5) Tim Dandridge
6) Jewhan Edwards
7) Deleon Eskridge
8) MarQueis Gray
9) Brandon Green
10) Brandon Kirksey
11) Eric Lair
12) Simoni Lawrence
13) Cedric McKinley
14) David Pittman
15) Spencer Reeves
16) Rex Sharpe
17) Traye Simmons
18) Brodrick Smith
19) Troy Stoudermire
20) Gary Tinsley
21) Kevin Whaley
22) D.L. Whilhite


That's from one year (2008). You said probably less than 15 in four years, when there was 22 in one year alone. I swear to God it's like facts don't even matter to some of you.

But let's keep going

23) Bryant Allen
24) Hayo Carpenter
25) Brent Singleton
26) Kenny Watkins
27) Brooks Michel
28) Kerry Lewis
29) Michael Carter
30) Tyrone Bouie
31) Matt Eggen
32) Tiree Eure
33) Donnell Kirkwood
34) Harold Legania
35) James Manuel
36) Tom Parish
37) Dwayne Mitchell
38) Brock Vereen
39) Devon Wright

So that's 39 in three years. Not really fair to count his last year since he was fired midway through. So, only off by about 200%.

 

[TCF=UnitedWeStand]

What's scary about all of these listed - at least 16 did or are expected to leave before graduating (and not because they were/are NFL draft picks). The first group - 2008 - I'd say has turned out to be a decent class, even with the departures.

The second group has been terrible with only Kirkwood and Vereen really being decent contributors thus far (Wright was decent on specials this past year, Euree was only around for a year - some may say Allen was okay; I thought he was terrible).

And I'm not trying to rip Gopherprof - just saying...

 

[Gopherprof]

What's scary about all of these listed - at least 16 did or are expected to leave before graduating (and not because they were/are NFL draft picks). The first group - 2008 - I'd say has turned out to be a decent class, even with the departures.

The second group has been terrible with only Kirkwood and Vereen really being decent contributors thus far (Wright was decent on specials this past year, Euree was only around for a year - some may say Allen was okay; I thought he was terrible).

And I'm not trying to rip Gopherprof - just saying...

No doubt about it. And, in a sense, it's a chicken or the egg question. Did these kids fall short because Brewster couldn't coach/changed systems too much/had a lack of structure, or did they fall short because they were risky prospects to begin with? I imagine it's some of both, and while Brewster took more risks than others (Kevin Whaley, for example), no coach is entirely blemish-free in that regard. Even the top programs take academic/character chances on players.

But that doesn't change the basic fact that Brewster wasn't the only one who wanted these kids.

 

[TCF=UnitedWeStand]

No doubt about it. And, in a sense, it's a chicken or the egg question. Did these kids fall short because Brewster couldn't coach/changed systems too much/had a lack of structure, or did they fall short because they were risky prospects to begin with? I imagine it's some of both, and while Brewster took more risks than others (Kevin Whaley, for example), no coach is entirely blemish-free in that regard. Even the top programs take academic/character chances on players.

But that doesn't change the basic fact that Brewster wasn't the only one who wanted these kids.

Not at all. And I'll say, I haven't read through this entire thread anytime recently; just saw the last couple posts today. But in some ways it almost seems like Kill doesn't necessarily want to take as many risks, and will take less-regarded players if he thinks they can develop and will be willing/able to stick around four years to do so. And that's really the key - having starting lineups of upper-classmen, with depth (guys that may not start, but play) in the lower classes.

That said, we have to hope that these less-heralded guys are in fact guys that will develop and will stick around because it doesn't seem, based upon their offers, that very many of them are going to be impactful right out of the shoot.

People got excited about Marcus Jones's this year, but to me he looked like a guy who has some potential, had no business playing this year and wouldn't have on a good team. I think that is the case with a lot of these guys Kill has recruited, but hopefully, eventually, we will have enough depth so that guys like Jones won't have to play right away.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

Recruited great? As long as you ignore what those great recruits did AFTER they showed up on campus (if they showed up at all). How many of those recruits are you going to be telling your grandkids about?

Are you trolling???? The definition of recruit would make your point moot other than as an antagonistic pile of dog crap. So, I state again, Brewster recruited great...read my post and I clearly state he wasn't an effective coach. Let me give you a comparison....your buddy gets Pamela Anderson into bed...of course he prematures on her leg and leaves her completely unsatisfied...but does that mean he didn't have the skill to get her into bed...no, he did. He was just a lousy lay after he got on the field. Brewster was like that, could get top recruits to sign on the line but couldn't perform on the field where it mattered and he was fired for the failure.

 

[howieramone]

Pamela Anderson is definitely a five star, but what position?

 

[MinneNoVA]

Pamela Anderson is definitely a five star, but what position?

Missionary?

 

[nc2mn]

Any position she likes!

 

[MNVCGUY]

Not at all. And I'll say, I haven't read through this entire thread anytime recently; just saw the last couple posts today. But in some ways it almost seems like Kill doesn't necessarily want to take as many risks, and will take less-regarded players if he thinks they can develop and will be willing/able to stick around four years to do so. And that's really the key - having starting lineups of upper-classmen, with depth (guys that may not start, but play) in the lower classes.

That said, we have to hope that these less-heralded guys are in fact guys that will develop and will stick around because it doesn't seem, based upon their offers, that very many of them are going to be impactful right out of the shoot.

People got excited about Marcus Jones's this year, but to me he looked like a guy who has some potential, had no business playing this year and wouldn't have on a good team. I think that is the case with a lot of these guys Kill has recruited, but hopefully, eventually, we will have enough depth so that guys like Jones won't have to play right away.

+1000 on the Jones comment. I think people got excited about him because he is faster then a lot of guys we have had in the past but as a player he was above average on returns and very average at receiver. He definitely could have used another year to work on his skills at the WR position. Maybe he will become a threat there maybe he will end up back at DB, time will tell. A lot will probably depend on how his knee recovers because the reality is he may never be the same again.

On the point of recruiting, Kill's style is far closer to Mason's then Brewster's. Result wise I think it is a slam dunk that Kill can get the team back to Mason levels of respectability and competitiveness. But in the end that really isn't good enough anymore, we all want more so the trick for Kill is going to be taking that next step. Time will tell if he can do that by recruiting under the radar guys that fit their system. Mason could never get over the hump but he also only really focused on one side of the ball.

 

[Oneoldgopher]

Are you trolling???? The definition of recruit would make your point moot other than as an antagonistic pile of dog crap. So, I state again, Brewster recruited great...read my post and I clearly state he wasn't an effective coach. Let me give you a comparison....your buddy gets Pamela Anderson into bed...of course he prematures on her leg and leaves her completely unsatisfied...but does that mean he didn't have the skill to get her into bed...no, he did. He was just a lousy lay after he got on the field. Brewster was like that, could get top recruits to sign on the line but couldn't perform on the field where it mattered and he was fired for the failure.

Do you get your inspiration from softporn or hard?

 

[John Galt]

If we are so loaded with talent because Brewster was a "great recruiter," we should be winning 9-10 games next year after Kill develops all this talent, right? Northern Illinois had more talent this year, but we were great at recruting?

 

[Gold Vision]

If we are so loaded with talent because Brewster was a "great recruiter," we should be winning 9-10 games next year after Kill develops all this talent, right? Northern Illinois had more talent this year, but we were great at recruting?

You can be a good recruiter but a bad judge of talent.

 

[John Galt]

My definition includes both. Who cares if I get someone to sign on a dotted line if they aren't a good player or will flunk out in a year.

 

[Gopherprof]

If we are so loaded with talent because Brewster was a "great recruiter," we should be winning 9-10 games next year after Kill develops all this talent, right? Northern Illinois had more talent this year, but we were great at recruting?

We aren't loaded with talent anymore. Look at the list of the 39 guys above, at the absolute most, only 15 of them will be on the team next year.

If Kill were here in 2008 or 2009, I think he could have done a lot more with Brewster's recruits than Brewster was able to. This isn't Madden; you can't just take a player with an 80 rating and put him in at linebacker. Brewster never developed players, gave them a consistent and workable scheme, provided discipline and expectations, etc. That doesn't mean they weren't good prospects to begin with.

 

[GoAUpher]

My definition includes both. Who cares if I get someone to sign on a dotted line if they aren't a good player or will flunk out in a year.

Then you're having a different discussion than most. Which is fine, it's your definition.

 

[ecoperson]

Kill's Comments about Team Talent

I am not here to pile on Brewster but do want to remind you that Kill seemed shocked at the lack of talent and speed on the roster when he arrived. He said that we did not have the talent that players he coached at Northern Illinois had. I do not know whether he was referring to the depth of the entire roster or the starters. Either way, it appears that the higher-rated recruits brought in under the previous coach may not have been as good as advertised. It appear as if Coach Kill puts a premium on identifying and developing talent. We'll see how the philosophy works in a few years.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I am not here to pile on Brewster but do want to remind you that Kill seemed shocked at the lack of talent and speed on the roster when he arrived. He said that we did not have the talent that players he coached at Northern Illinois had. I do not know whether he was referring to the depth of the entire roster or the starters. Either way, it appears that the higher-rated recruits brought in under the previous coach may not have been as good as advertised. It appear as if Coach Kill puts a premium on identifying and developing talent. We'll see how the philosophy works in a few years.

Kill took the opposite approach that Brewster took. When Brew came in he talked big about the Rose Bowl and winning as soon as possible. Kill talked about a lack of talent and an inability to compete for a few years. Brewster's style led to the fan base getting excited and then feeling let down when the team flopped. Kill's style is setup so that the fan base does not expect much from the team and then when things go well the coaches come off looking good.

As for the talent on the roster, I agree we were not loaded but there was enough talent to do far better then we did early in the season. If we can beat Iowa and Illinois, and hang with USC and MSU then there is enough talent on the roster to crush New Mexico State.