Gophs recruiting at a MAC level??

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Let's look at Rivals and compare the #1-rated MAC team from each of the last 3 years in recruiting:

2012
Temple - 29 verbals, 2.12 star avg, 3 3-stars; 2 total BCS offers, 10 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 15 total DI-AA offers; 16 recruits with no other offers

2011
Toledo - 21 verbals, 2.45 star avg, 1 4-star, 7 3-stars; 25 total BCS offers, 31 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 5 total DI-AA offers; 6 recruits with no other offers

2010
Toledo - 28 verbals, 2.56 star avg, 1 4-star, 13 3-stars; 24 total BCS offers, 20 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 3 total DI-AA offers; 14 recruits with no other offers


Now, let's look at Minnesota's 2012 class. Hell, I'll even remove the 4 mentioned players since the only reason they're coming to Minnesota is "to play in front of friends and family":

2012
Minnesota - 22 verbals, 2.53 star avg, 9 3-stars; 13 total BCS offers, 25 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 10 total DI-AA offers; 6 recruits with no other offers

Now, since Jerry Kill really did have to recruit the 4 mentioned players (despite your obtuse and ill-informed thoughts to the contrary), let's take a look at the full class with them included:

2012
Minnesota - 26 verbals, 2.62 star avg, 13 3-stars; 23 total BCS offers, 31 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 13 total DI-AA offers; 8 recruits with no other offers

Keeping in mind that Temple's 2012 class is more representative of a typical top-end MAC recruiting class, that both of Toledo's 2010 and 2011 classes were absurdly good by MAC standards (easily the best MAC recruiting classes in the Rivals era), and that Minnesota's 2012 class compares equally or favorably to both of them, I can quite easily say that, no, Kill is not recruiting at a MAC level. But you, tinypenis, are still a dumbass.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I disagree that Kill is recruiting at a MAC level, but I do know that you are posting at a UMAC level.
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"Post of the week award winner", thank you
As far as recruiting at a MAC level goes, that is a big step up from what we have been doing at QB,DB and WR between 2008 and the 2011 classes. If you have never gone to practice, you should go and see how many players from the 2009, and 2010 classes have a chance to start at those positions. I don't think there is a receiver recruited between McKnight and DCT who is a potential starter or even a solid replacement. Same for QB. If any of Kenny Watkins,
Manuel, Montgomery or Bouie come around, when added to Vereen we would have two DBs from two recruiting classes and we did not get any keepers that I can find from 2008 other than Troy S (after we figured out in his third year that is where he should be playing). Maybe they will all work out but three of the four have been in the program two years and were behind first year (and last minute MAC level recruit) Derrick Wells.
Seriously, good MAC level recruiting would be a big step up at almost any position other than o-line and LB, since 2008.
At DT we have three scholarship recruited players in three classes, and one of them was a last minute add who apparently is working out well.(Jacques).
You can't make it up. After 2008 Brewster's recruiting, was pathetic other than the o-line where he apparently got religion after forgetting to recruit any for two years.
 

BarnBoy said:
Year 1: Find some diamonds. Coach 'em up.

Year 2: Find some diamonds. Coach 'em up. Have some success.

Year 3: Cash in on success. Better recruits. Find some more diamonds. Keep coaching 'em up. Have even more success.

Year 4. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Not rocket science.
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Your post reminds me of the old Steve Martin line about how to avoid paying taxes on a million dollars...."First, get a million dollars..."
 

I think what the OP was saying was that our recruits are more predominantly pursued by non-BCS schools. I have decided to break down our 'commits' other offers into BCS offers, mutual offers, non-BCS offers only, or no other offers at all.

Minnesota
BCS - 1
both - 1
Non - 1
none - 4

National
BCS - 1
both - 3
Non - 8
none - 1

JuCo
BCS - 0
both - 1
Non - 2
none - 0

Clearly our recruiting has been clearly more of a non-BCS caliber when you consider only 2 recruits had only BCS offers, 5 had the attention of both groups, and 11 had only non-BCS offers. That's not even including the 5 who had no other schools offer them at all! There's more non-offered athletes signing than those who are BCS caliber. Still want more? Let's compare our results with a fair, if not worse, program: Indiana.

Indiana
BCS - 0
both - 4
Non - 4
none - 0

National
BCS - 1
both - 3
Non - 4
none - 1

JuCo
BCS - 2
both - 0
Non - 3
none - 0

UM - 2 / 5 / 11 / 5
UI - 3 / 7 / 11 / 1

Not only is Indiana going after more players with BCS interest, but much less players without any other interest at all (don't call them "hidden gems" or whatever). I'm not saying the staff is poor at recruiting, as they are obviously going after players they feel will fit their system... however... it is fair to keep some scrutiny on hand until we see some results.
 

They played like a MAC team this year! We have to have faith that Kill knows what he is doing.
 


John Galt said:
This thread has an absolutely stupid title. "MAC-level recruting?" Are you serious? I count 7 players: Pirsig, Hayes, Hinojosa, Shabazz, Moss, Harbison, and Nelson that have offers from the top 20 teams in the country or in the case of Nelson, that type of pedigree. A MAC team could never get one of these guys, let alone 7.

For those trying to bring back the glory days of Tim Brewster's recruiting prowess, let's go back to his last full class in 2010. Please tell me all of the great offers that these 17 players had: Eggen, Epping, Eure, Feguson, Hutton, Legania, Lenkiewicz, Lewis, Mitchell, Parish, Perry, Pride, Ragoo, Tatum, Tauaefa, Thornton, Wilson.

Get out of here with the MAC level recruiting garbage....
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I think Gillum has an Iowa offer as well. Either way, Juco's are kinda different because some programs don't even recruit them, or only recruit them when they have a big need (like we do in the secondary).

Like others have said, if we're recruiting at a MAC level, then we wouldn't have guys like Harbison, Hinojosa, Nelson, and Pirsig committed.

I think one of the biggest problems with recruiting/players when Brewster was here (besides lack of development) was the fact that so many either didn't make it into school or left early. Yes those things will always happen but we had a lot the past few years. Good programs not only get good talent, but they also are able to keep them there for 4/5 years. Kill's strategy is to get players who fit the system and are not risky with academics or other off field stuff.
 

magpie said:
Minnesota
BCS - 1
both - 1
Non - 1
none - 4
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Just looking at the MN guys, it's hard to know for sure what kind of offers some would have had if they hadn't committed so early. I have to believe that Nelson would have gotten an offer from another BCS school(s) if he didn't commit early. Even a guy like Maxx Williams probably gets an offer somewhere else. You have to consider when someone committed when looking at offers.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
How many 20-42 teams over the last five seasons are recruiting above a MAC level?
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Avoiding the rest of the argument in this thread, I wish people would stop this false line of thinking. There are numerous coaches that have been able to recruit 4-star players without a program with a winning tradition. People mentioned James Franklin, but what about Tim Brewster? Brewster won head-to-head recruiting battles against far more successful programs on a continual basis. He couldn't do a damn thing with those recruits, and never really seemed to have a plan, but that doesn't change the very basic fact that refutes your argument. People would be surprised how little previous program success by itself actually matters to recruits.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/andy_staples/01/20/recruiting/

Kill isn't hurt as much by the lack of program success as he is by geography and his own limited national appeal. He's not famous, and he doesn't seem to have a showman approach (though he handles a Minnesota crowd quite well). He can, however, develop players, and I'll take that over what Brewster bought to the table. But, would I prefer to have both? Of course. I wish Kill was winning more head-to-head recruiting battles with BCS teams. I'm not sure why this is such a controversial opinion to have on here.
 

badgergopher

badgergopher said:
Your post reminds me of the old Steve Martin line about how to avoid paying taxes on a million dollars...."First, get a million dollars..."
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Thanks for the laugh. I heard it before but it still funny.
 



Gopherprof said:
Avoiding the rest of the argument in this thread, I wish people would stop this false line of thinking. There are numerous coaches that have been able to recruit 4-star players without a program with a winning tradition. People mentioned James Franklin, but what about Tim Brewster? Brewster won head-to-head recruiting battles against far more successful programs on a continual basis. He couldn't do a damn thing with those recruits, and never really seemed to have a plan, but that doesn't change the very basic fact that refutes your argument. People would be surprised how little previous program success by itself actually matters to recruits.
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It's not false at all. Brewster did have a highly regarded recruiting class after the 1-11 2007 season. But if you were right, that wouldn't have been remarkable at all. That people were so amazed at this recruiting class after such a bad season shows how unusual it is. The link you provided doesn't make the point you think it does. It says that recruits don't care much about how many national titles the school has or how many players the school puts in the NFL. Recruits may have a short memory, but their memories aren't so short that they don't pay attention to how the football team did recently. The recent success of the team has a significant effect on recruiting.
 

RodentRampage said:
It's not false at all. Brewster did have a highly regarded recruiting class after the 1-11 2007 season. But if you were right, that wouldn't have been remarkable at all. That people were so amazed at this recruiting class after such a bad season shows how unusual it is. The link you provided doesn't make the point you think it does. It says that recruits don't care much about how many national titles the school has or how many players the school puts in the NFL. Recruits may have a short memory, but their memories aren't so short that they don't pay attention to how the football team did recently. The recent success of the team has a significant effect on recruiting.
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Brewster had a strong recruiting class in 2008 as well and a decent one in 2009. Talent-wise, it's not just 2007.

But the link is just a part of the argument. Look at Ron Zook at Illinois, Ed Orgeron at Ole Miss, Butch Davis at UNC, Ralph Friedgen at Maryland, Mike London at Virginia, Jim Harbaugh at Stanford, or even going back to Rich Brooks at Oregon and Howard Schnellenberger at Miami. None of those are/were good programs before those coaches arrived and they were able to out-recruit better programs by selling something other than historical success. Some coaches are better at doing that than others. Some of those guys could also coach, and some clearly couldn't, but that's a separate issue.

Most of those coaches were also helped by geography, but that's part of my point. Our biggest recruiting setback isn't lack of wins, it's limited homegrown talent.
 

Ho-hum

Guys, read the profiles and interviews from these so called MAC recruits. Many of them have been contacted by BCS schools who indicate an "interest" in many of these kids the Gopher's have committed. In several cases I've read where a Gopher recruit has said: " I'm hearing from so and so, but they have not offered yet" Does this make them bottom feeders? Don't think so
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think one of the biggest problems with recruiting/players when Brewster was here (besides lack of development) was the fact that so many either didn't make it into school or left early. Yes those things will always happen but we had a lot the past few years. Good programs not only get good talent, but they also are able to keep them there for 4/5 years. Kill's strategy is to get players who fit the system and are not risky with academics or other off field stuff.
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I wonder if one of the reasons that we were able to get certain 4* players when Brewster was here is that he pursued those players that other successful BCS programs may have backed away from due to academics or character issues. I think that in the end, Minnesota may have been the one pursuing them the most while others backed off. We sure had several that didn't make it into school or left early as you said.

People tend to feel good about stars and how they stack up in the recruiting services. A word of caution, look at Rich Rod at Michigan or Weis at ND and their impressive recruiting classes and how they did virtually nothing with them. Give me the coach that can develop players and unify a team over straight talent any day. Coach Kill's past program/recruiting history makes me optomistic that he can develop players and unify this team. With more wins will come more talent and with more talent even more success. Can people please stop with the silly MAC level recruiting statements. If he takes these recruits, develops them and unifies the team and they have success, do you really care what their number of stars were when they were seniors in HS or what the average star rating was for their recruiting class?
 



A cumulative 8th place over a 10 year tenure at a school is something to be embarassed about, not something to aspire to. If you think that Jerry Kill will "get the program back to the Glen Mason level", you are saying he will fail. If that was the goal of anyone associated with the University of Minnesota, Tim Brewster would not have been fired less than a season after back to back "Mason level" seasons.
 

In my mind, for the team to be considered a success, they need to reach a level where they win a championship about once a decade. In addition, another BCS bowl, three New Years Day bowls, and a minor bowl virtually every other year in the decade. I believe that Coach Kill has a similar vision, and the reason he is so negative, at times. I really think that Coach Kill aspires to having the team be able to do too any team, what they did too Illinois. I personally believe that, he has the blueprint to do it, one step at a time.
 

Gopherprof said:
Avoiding the rest of the argument in this thread, I wish people would stop this false line of thinking. There are numerous coaches that have been able to recruit 4-star players without a program with a winning tradition. People mentioned James Franklin, but what about Tim Brewster? Brewster won head-to-head recruiting battles against far more successful programs on a continual basis. He couldn't do a damn thing with those recruits, and never really seemed to have a plan, but that doesn't change the very basic fact that refutes your argument. People would be surprised how little previous program success by itself actually matters to recruits.

LOL!!!! Please stop now....
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46Gophers said:
I wonder if one of the reasons that we were able to get certain 4* players when Brewster was here is that he pursued those players that other successful BCS programs may have backed away from due to academics or character issues. ?
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Maybe with some of them, but a lot of our highest rated recruits haven't been the issue.
 

John Galt said:
Gopherprof said:
Avoiding the rest of the argument in this thread, I wish people would stop this false line of thinking. There are numerous coaches that have been able to recruit 4-star players without a program with a winning tradition. People mentioned James Franklin, but what about Tim Brewster? Brewster won head-to-head recruiting battles against far more successful programs on a continual basis. He couldn't do a damn thing with those recruits, and never really seemed to have a plan, but that doesn't change the very basic fact that refutes your argument. People would be surprised how little previous program success by itself actually matters to recruits.

LOL!!!! Please stop now....
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I actually kind of agree with GopherProf, in 08 and 09, Brew was winning some big recruiting battles. It was one of the only things he did well in MN, but he did win a lot of those battles.
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The absurdity of the whole thing is people thinking that because someone has been assigned a 4-star or 5-star by some rube like us it means something. Take Alex Keith. The guy started playing football late, we got in his ear early, and we got a commitment despite teams like Oregon showing interest. Any person can pick out guys like Seantrel Henderson and Michael Floyd as good players. This is why there is some correlation between "stars" and success on the field. Teams like Alabama and USC get guys year after year that anyone could identify as good players. What others fail to realize is there are plenty of top 25 teams that don't consistently get 4-star players but are still very successful because their coaches can dig a little deeper and identify talent.
 



John Galt said:
But Kill didn't win any battles getting Hinojosa, Pirsig, Hayes, Harbison, or R. Williams?
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Some, sure. Why does everything have to be a completely black and white situation? I said Brewster won a ton of head-to-head recruiting matchups and you laughed it off like a *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ing joke. It's a basic fact.

According to Rivals:

Pirsig had offers from Ohio State, Auburn, Michigan, Michigan State, Iowa, Wisconsin, etc.

Hinojosa had offers from Michigan State and West Virginia

Hayes had offers from Virginia Tech and Oregon State

Harbison had offers from NC State, Vanderbilt, West Virginia, and Wake Forest

Williams had offers from Iowa and Utah

Compare that to the offer lists from some of Brewster's guys and it's not close. Traye Simmons had a Florida offer. Keanon Cooper had offers from Oklahoma and Miami. Brandon Green had offers from 6 Big Ten programs. Kevin Whaley had offers from Penn State, Virginia Tech, West Virginia and others. Sam Maresh had offers from Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Michigan State. Spencer Reeves had offers from Arkansas, Wisconsin, etc. And the list goes on.

Brewster has an undeniably *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ty coach who couldn't run a program. I think Kill will have much more success than he will. But it honestly makes me wonder if you follow the Gophers at all to be so callously snide about a such an undeniable true comment as that. Hate Brewster all you want, I certainly think he was a disaster of a hire, but that doesn't change the fact that he went into Texas and got commitments from players with Oklahoma offers and he went into Florida and got players with Miami and Florida offers. If Kill could do that combined with his coaching and developmental talents, we would be even better off.
 

When you look at Brewster recruits a lot of them were gone 2 to 3 years later. I believe that a lot of it was because they were here for the wrong reasons. I don't care if you recruit 10 5 star recruits if half don't get into school and the other 5 are gone in 2 to 3 yrs your just spinning your wheels. Coach Kill's recruits will be good students and develop into pretty good players. A lot of them will be program guys that contribute only as upper class-men but by being here and competing they'll make everyone better.
 

nsmike said:
When you look at Brewster recruits a lot of them were gone 2 to 3 years later. I believe that a lot of it was because they were here for the wrong reasons. I don't care if you recruit 10 5 star recruits if half don't get into school and the other 5 are gone in 2 to 3 yrs your just spinning your wheels. Coach Kill's recruits will be good students and develop into pretty good players. A lot of them will be program guys that contribute only as upper class-men but by being here and competing they'll make everyone better.
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I think that's just as much a problem with lack of coaching and organizational structure than anything else. Give those players better coaching and direction and a lot of them are probably going to be in much better shape. Brewster was good at getting talent into the program, he just had no idea what to do with it because he had no experience running a program and being a head coach.
 

Brewster's problem was more than just coaching, that's what you and some others still don't see. It was also recruiting. As one of the previous posters pointed out, between Gray and Shortell there were no B1G caliber QBs, between McKnight and DCT, there are no B1G caliber wide receivers. If the talent is so great from our past recruiting and Kill is the ultimate developer of talent, all of these RFresh/Soph/Jrs. should be figuring it out next year and we should win 9-10 games.
 

John Galt said:
Brewster's problem was more than just coaching, that's what you and some others still don't see. It was also recruiting. As one of the previous posters pointed out, between Gray and Shortell there were no B1G caliber QBs, between McKnight and DCT, there are no B1G caliber wide receivers. If the talent is so great from our past recruiting and Kill is the ultimate developer of talent, all of these RFresh/Soph/Jrs. should be figuring it out next year and we should win 9-10 games.
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Off the top of my head:

Alipate and Parrish both had other BCS offers at quarterback.

So did Brandon Green, Bryant Allen, and Hayo Carpenter (and another kid from St. Louis I forget the name of).

It's really easy to look at Brewster's failures as a coach and assume he was a failure at everything. I get it, he's no longer the coach so now he's the worst person at everything. We want to do that because it makes us feel better about our program and about Kill. The truth is, it's not just Brewster that wanted these kids, it was many other BCS programs too. When someone criticizes a Kill recruit there's someone else that always criticizes them for being arrogant to think they know more than a head coach. Well, if a kid has 6-7 BCS offers, how arrogant do you have to be to assume that you know better than all of them?

The program failed because Brewster had no vision, no organizational abilities, and no consistency. So many of our talented players, players that we didn't get under Mason, and so far haven't gotten under Kill, were totally wasted because Brewster didn't know how to develop them. But that doesn't take away from the fact that when it came to sitting in a recruits' living room and convincing him to come play for us, he was very good.
 

Also, since your memory seems to be a bit off on these cases. Shortell, the B1G quarterback you mention, he was a Brewster recruit that Kill kept on. So..there goes that argument.
 

So many great responses on this thread!

I have witnessed a Gopher football program where the staff concentrated on establishing an effective style of offense suited to the type of players they were able to consistently attract to their program. However, the defensive side of the ball had only spotty success in the ability to attract or develop quality players. In addition, the raport that the head coach had with the local high school football programs in Minnesota was fractured and uncongenial.

I have witnessed a Gopher football program that was able to attract highly rated players from across the country. This program aggressively used techniques including offering scholarships to friends of top rated recruits just to sway those highly rated players. This program also entirely switched both offensive and defensive philosophies on an almost yearly basis.

I have witnessed a Gopher football program that has used a consistent approach to coaching and recruiting and a playing style for many years and have brought that system here. They have concentrated with an emphasis on recruiting players that exhibited qualities such speed, heart, passion and football intelligence. They have developed a good relationship with the local high school community and have shown a priority on convincing the top players best suited for their program to stay home.

At this point in the current state of Golden Gopher football it basically comes down to faith. From what I've witnessed over the years, the current approach from this staff seems to have the most substance. Watching how they have gone about their business, this looks to be the best business model I have seen in many years. I believe that this staff is using the best long lasting approach to building up a football program in Minnesota.
 

If a recruit can't get admitted into Minnesota or be academically eliglibe during his four years at Minnesota he is not a good recruit. IMO, Brewster was not a great recruiter for the university of Minnesota because of that fact.
 

No reason to defend Kill by diminishing Brewster. Brew recruited great at MN...couldn't coach or run a program...but he recruited. Kill isn't Brewster and he isn't Mason, he is Jerry Kill. I am perfectly fine in figuring that Kill is a better recruiter than Mason but not than Brewster and Kill is a better Coach than Brewster and has better assistants running the defense than Mason.

So if we get better players with similar quality offensive scheme/coaching and better defensive scheme/coaching that we got under Mason we should be better with Kill than with Mason...that is what I am hoping for. We are not going to be tOSU anytime soon...but we can have runs like Wisc and Ia and IMO Kill is the guy to get us there. Time will tell who is right or wrong...but this is how I choose to see and it until evidence says otherwise.
 

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