Gophers QBs could face a battle from Philip Nelson

[Bob_Loblaw]

Pryor was not a very consistent passer during his career at Ohio St. Phillip Nelson is a prospect who has all of the tools to be a great, consistent QB.

If and when the coaching staff decides to start him, I will trust their judgement when their right time is.
I also defend Pat Nelson's right to speak his mind freely. I met him and he is a very astute judge of football talent. He doesn't come across as anything but a proud Dad (He should be) who is a very big fan of Gopher football. He is a down to earth guy who is very authentic. He is not openly pushing for Gray to move to WR. He is just a big fan like we all are.

Pryor might be one of the least appreciated players I remember in the Big 10. I constantly hear about how he was a bad passer, but my memory and the stats simply do not allow me to agree.

Pryor has a career 60% completion rate, over a 2:1 TD/INT ratio

His stats his JR season were:
2772 yards - 65% completion rate - 27 TDs - 11 INTS

I am a huge Phil Nelson fan, but those will be tough stats to reproduce.

That said, I do agree with you Nelson's dad. I don't think he said anything out of line at all. He sounded proud of his kid and he sounded perfectly fine with Nelson being on the bench next year.

 

[highwayman]

Weber was a redshirt freshmen and beat out Tony Mortenson, who never took a snap for the Gophers. Nelson is a true freshmen and would have to beat out a returning starter who threw 3 TD passes on the road against the B1G regular season champions and was the 3rd leading rusher for a QB in the nation.

OT: Except when he was on the field on when Minnesota beat Michigan. Also, he was the starter, and played the whole game the next week vs. the Scones. If it weren't for the team getting Masonized, he would have been the star of the game. Remember the naked bootleg on 4th down?

I assume you meant he never took a snap after Weber took over...

 

[matt]

i'm not sure how you feel that you can say that so confidentially.

Lol.

If you believe in the future of the team and Nelson's development the difference in wins between starting a 5th year starting QB (Nelson) in place of whoever else is on the depth chart in 5 years could potentially be much larger than this upcoming season.

This. Nelson would make a bigger difference to this team in his 5th year than he could this year. Even in the best case scenario Nelson might win an extra 2 games this year and get us to a better mediocre bowl. In 5 years though, he could benefit the team much more, especially when they are vying for a New Years bowl game and are trying to finish at the top of the division/conference.

 

[highwayman]

Even in the best case scenario Nelson might win an extra 2 games this year and get us to a better mediocre bowl. In 5 years though, he could benefit the team much more, especially when they are vying for a New Years bowl game and are trying to finish at the top of the division/conference.

+1 gagillion.

 

[John Galt]

Lol.



This. Nelson would make a bigger difference to this team in his 5th year than he could this year. Even in the best case scenario Nelson might win an extra 2 games this year and get us to a better mediocre bowl. In 5 years though, he could benefit the team much more, especially when they are vying for a New Years bowl game and are trying to finish at the top of the division/conference.

So if Philip Nelson is the difference between competing with and possibly beating Iowa and Wisconsin THIS year, you'd gladly sacrifice those games based on what might happen in 2016?

 

[dpodoll68]

Nelson would make a bigger difference to this team in his 5th year than he could this year. Even in the best case scenario Nelson might win an extra 2 games this year and get us to a better mediocre bowl. In 5 years though, he could benefit the team much more, especially when they are vying for a New Years bowl game and are trying to finish at the top of the division/conference.

This pretty much encapsulates the whole scenario. We are conditioned as Minnesota fans to want to try to grab as many wins as possible as soon as possible because we don't know if/when they'll ever come again. But if we are in better shape in 2012 with Nelson as a true freshman starting at QB than we will be in 2016 with Nelson as a RSr. starting for the 3rd or 4th consecutive season, we are in deep sh1t and we have made a colossal mistake with the Jerry Kill hire. Saying that we have to get as many wins as we possibly can at the risk of future progress is loser talk, which is not surprising since, again, that is what we are conditioned to as Minnesota fans.

 

[Gopher Fan Chuck]

Nelson won't be starting this year.

 

[nc2mn]

This pretty much encapsulates the whole scenario. We are conditioned as Minnesota fans to want to try to grab as many wins as possible as soon as possible because we don't know if/when they'll ever come again. But if we are in better shape in 2012 with Nelson as a true freshman starting at QB than we will be in 2016 with Nelson as a RSr. starting for the 3rd or 4th consecutive season, we are in deep sh1t and we have made a colossal mistake with the Jerry Kill hire. Saying that we have to get as many wins as we possibly can at the risk of future progress is loser talk, which is not surprising since, again, that is what we are conditioned to as Minnesota fans.

Absolutely - and all we need for an example of short-sighted thinking like this is Brewster wanting to win right away and playing Q as a freshman. Wouldn't it be nice to have Q as a rs junior?

 

[John Galt]

This pretty much encapsulates the whole scenario. We are conditioned as Minnesota fans to want to try to grab as many wins as possible as soon as possible because we don't know if/when they'll ever come again. But if we are in better shape in 2012 with Nelson as a true freshman starting at QB than we will be in 2016 with Nelson as a RSr. starting for the 3rd or 4th consecutive season, we are in deep sh1t and we have made a colossal mistake with the Jerry Kill hire. Saying that we have to get as many wins as we possibly can at the risk of future progress is loser talk, which is not surprising since, again, that is what we are conditioned to as Minnesota fans.

You still haven't answered my question. I want to hear you state that you would pass up possible victories over Iowa and Wisconsin this year based on what might happen in 2016. The program will be re-built not just by Philip Nelson, but improving talent at all positions. We all remember the Barber/Maroney years when we had the best rushing attack in the country and two future NFL starters, but we still didn't get to the Rose Bowl because the defense was terrible. You stated in another thread that recruiting rankings matter and that Kill will have a much tougher job if recruiting doesn't improve. How can recruiting improve if we win 3 football games next year? It won't. If Kill doesn't put his best team on the field, he's doing all of his fans (us) and the team a disservice. I'm not talking about putting Nelson in the 2nd to last game of the year, or in the 4th quarter when we're up by 20 to get him some time. I'm talking about playing the best players so you have the opportunity to beat your rivals in the B1G and go to a bowl game.

 

[dpodoll68]

I want to hear you state that you would pass up possible victories over Iowa and Wisconsin this year based on what might happen in 2016.

It's a false choice because wins or losses in those 2 games are not going to be on the basis of the margin between Philip Nelson vs. replacement QB X. I've stated multiple times that I redshirt Nelson in every situation short of Gray and Shortell both being lost to season-ending injuries. So, yes, because it's what you want to hear, presuming that Shortell is healthy, I would not put Nelson in a close game against either Iowa or Wisconsin.

 

[highwayman]

You still haven't answered my question. I want to hear you state that you would pass up possible victories over Iowa and Wisconsin this year based on what might happen in 2016. The program will be re-built not just by Philip Nelson, but improving talent at all positions. We all remember the Barber/Maroney years when we had the best rushing attack in the country and two future NFL starters, but we still didn't get to the Rose Bowl because the defense was terrible. You stated in another thread that recruiting rankings matter and that Kill will have a much tougher job if recruiting doesn't improve. How can recruiting improve if we win 3 football games next year? It won't. If Kill doesn't put his best team on the field, he's doing all of his fans (us) and the team a disservice. I'm not talking about putting Nelson in the 2nd to last game of the year, or in the 4th quarter when we're up by 20 to get him some time. I'm talking about playing the best players so you have the opportunity to beat your rivals in the B1G and go to a bowl game.

As a QB generator of offense Gray>Nelson by let's say double. That's Experience+athletic ability+size+toughness. As a WR Gray>any other WR by maybe 55%-45%. Tops. Or maybe reversed at this point. Remember, he hasn't played receiver for almost two years.

You're saying that Nelson can beat Iowa after 4 career college games and Wisconsin after 5, because that's what you're saying...and that would be if Nelson starts and plays all of every game until then.

Back to my point: that's just crazy.

 

[John Galt]

It's a false choice because wins or losses in those 2 games are not going to be on the basis of the margin between Philip Nelson vs. replacement QB X. I've stated multiple times that I redshirt Nelson in every situation short of Gray and Shortell both being lost to season-ending injuries. So, yes, because it's what you want to hear, presuming that Shortell is healthy, I would not put Nelson in a close game against either Iowa or Wisconsin.

You have no idea what the margin will be between Philip Nelson and choice X. It's possible that he, or Max Williams, or Andre McDonald, or a different freshmen (or 2 or 3) could be the difference in a game. Is it likely? No. I wish every freshmen could red-shirt, because barring a major injury, a player will be better his 5th year in at a program than his 1st. But this doesn't stop even some good teams from playing true freshmen because they are the best player at their position and give the team the best chance to win.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

This pretty much encapsulates the whole scenario. We are conditioned as Minnesota fans to want to try to grab as many wins as possible as soon as possible because we don't know if/when they'll ever come again. But if we are in better shape in 2012 with Nelson as a true freshman starting at QB than we will be in 2016 with Nelson as a RSr. starting for the 3rd or 4th consecutive season, we are in deep sh1t and we have made a colossal mistake with the Jerry Kill hire. Saying that we have to get as many wins as we possibly can at the risk of future progress is loser talk, which is not surprising since, again, that is what we are conditioned to as Minnesota fans.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to play devil's advocate here (not that this perspective reflects EXACTLY how I really feel).

The only problem with this point of view, "saving" a potential 5th year for Nelson, is that it ASSUMES that the Gophers are not going to recruit a player at QB at any time in the next 3-4 years that is equal to or better than Nelson. I have a hard time with that. The scenario that you described, with the Gophers being in "deep sh!t", I could counter with the same argument: if the Gophers aren't able to recruit somebody at QB in the next few years who could step in after what could/would be Nelson's Senior 4th year, they are in deep sh!t and the Jerry Kill hire was a mistake as well.

An argument for grabbing as many of those "early" wins, wins this year, as possible is that those are the things that BUILD towards the future progress you are talking about. Winning 7 games this year instead of 5 could swing the needle in the recruitment of 2-3 difference-making recruits, which could have far more of an impact than a 5th year for a QB that has not taken a snap yet.

Fans get so consumed with preserving redshirts sometimes. The best players need to play. Period. I have no clue who is the best option at QB. Not even a hunch.

And as far as possibly "hurting the morale" of the team by starting somebody instead of Gray at QB, that's ridiculous. Players want to win. Period. And if Gray is a total team player, he would understand that and accept it if somebody else is a better option THIS year.

 

[John Galt]

As a QB generator of offense Gray>Nelson by let's say double. That's Experience+athletic ability+size+toughness. As a WR Gray>any other WR by maybe 55%-45%. Tops. Or maybe reversed at this point. Remember, he hasn't played receiver for almost two years.

You're saying that Nelson can beat Iowa after 4 career college games and Wisconsin after 5, because that's what you're saying...and that would be if Nelson starts and plays all of every game until then.
Back to my point: that's just crazy.

That's not remotely what I said. If Nelson truly is that good, he's a future NFL starting QB. Every year and B1G game is important, especially rivalry games. A win in either of these games or both would be HUGE for the program, help recruiting, fan interest, etc. IF Nelson is the guy that gives you a chance to win, he should play. The program won't end when Phil Nelson leaves. Kill is already recruiting Alton Meeks and other 2013 QBs. To be a good program, you need depth and lots of good recruits year in and year out. This is why we're having this converation to begin with. MarQueis was shaky passing the ball last year, Alipate is now a TE, and Shortell is still an unknown.

 

[wait!what?]

Past behavior predicts the future:
Kill loves him a 5th yr QB. Nelson will be a redshirt.

 

[matt]

For the sake of argument, I'm going to play devil's advocate here (not that this perspective reflects EXACTLY how I really feel).

The only problem with this point of view, "saving" a potential 5th year for Nelson, is that it ASSUMES that the Gophers are not going to recruit a player at QB at any time in the next 3-4 years that is equal to or better than Nelson. I have a hard time with that. The scenario that you described, with the Gophers being in "deep sh!t", I could counter with the same argument: if the Gophers aren't able to recruit somebody at QB in the next few years who could step in after what could/would be Nelson's Senior 4th year, they are in deep sh!t and the Jerry Kill hire was a mistake as well.

An argument for grabbing as many of those "early" wins, wins this year, as possible is that those are the things that BUILD towards the future progress you are talking about. Winning 7 games this year instead of 5 could swing the needle in the recruitment of 2-3 difference-making recruits, which could have far more of an impact than a 5th year for a QB that has not taken a snap yet.

Fans get so consumed with preserving redshirts sometimes. The best players need to play. Period. I have no clue who is the best option at QB. Not even a hunch.

And as far as possibly "hurting the morale" of the team by starting somebody instead of Gray at QB, that's ridiculous. Players want to win. Period. And if Gray is a total team player, he would understand that and accept it if somebody else is a better option THIS year.

Assuming that Nelson will be our QB for 4 years (either from 2012-2015 or 2013-2016), all else equal, he would produce better results if he redshirts. He will learn things in his RS year that will make him a better QB his first year than if he didn't RS. He would then have a better base to build on each of the following years and therefore be slightly better than if he didn't RS. Obviously there are other factors to take into consideration such as recruiting, attendance, etc. but that is just something to think about.

 

[howieramone]

Kill knows he has to win now and isn't pointing to 2016. I hate to bring up the past, but go back 50-60 threads and review this board. The clear sentiment on the board was to fire Kill after 3 or 4 games. I understand fanboards don't run this program, but I question the patience of the Gopher Faithful. I won't be one of them but I believe it's 50-50 Kill and staff will survive til 2016, or frankly any other coach and staff which would have been bold enough to take the challenge.

All John is saying is, if Gray gets hurt and Nelson gives us the best chance to win, do you burn one redshirt? Always build for the future, but if the unforeseeable happens and Nelson gives us the best chance to win this year, win now and worry about 2016 later.

 

[zambam]

Kill knows he has to win now and isn't pointing to 2016. I hate to bring up the past, but go back 50-60 threads and review this board. The clear sentiment on the board was to fire Kill after 3 or 4 games. I understand fanboards don't run this program, but I question the patience of the Gopher Faithful. I won't be one of them but I believe it's 50-50 Kill and staff will survive til 2016, or frankly any other coach and staff which would have been bold enough to take the challenge.

All John is saying is, if Gray gets hurt and Nelson gives us the best chance to win, do you burn one redshirt? Always build for the future, but if the unforeseeable happens and Nelson gives us the best chance to win this year, win now and worry about 2016 later.

Nobody was actually saying to fire Kill after 3 or 4 games other than the guy who started the website...

And I don't think that is what John is saying. John is saying that if Nelson is better than Gray we should start him. I don't see Nelson making enough of a different on a team whose best player last year we are talking about replacing to come in and get more wins for this team. Gray at WR does not make enough difference at that position to make this team win that many more games to make it worth it.

 

[dpodoll68]

The clear sentiment on the board was to fire Kill after 3 or 4 games.

Not from anyone who isn't a complete and total idiot.

 

[GreasyGopher]

You still haven't answered my question. I want to hear you state that you would pass up possible victories over Iowa and Wisconsin this year based on what might happen in 2016. The program will be re-built not just by Philip Nelson, but improving talent at all positions. We all remember the Barber/Maroney years when we had the best rushing attack in the country and two future NFL starters, but we still didn't get to the Rose Bowl because the defense was terrible. You stated in another thread that recruiting rankings matter and that Kill will have a much tougher job if recruiting doesn't improve. How can recruiting improve if we win 3 football games next year? It won't. If Kill doesn't put his best team on the field, he's doing all of his fans (us) and the team a disservice. I'm not talking about putting Nelson in the 2nd to last game of the year, or in the 4th quarter when we're up by 20 to get him some time. I'm talking about playing the best players so you have the opportunity to beat your rivals in the B1G and go to a bowl game.

If Philip Nelson was the caliber of player that is capable of leading the Gophers to a victory over the Badgers as a true freshman, that talent would have been more than evident by now. With the current talent level of the Gophers, Philip Nelson would have to be a virtuoso with a football in his hands to make that significant of a difference. He would look so much better in practice than any other QB that this wouldn't be a discussion.

Let the coaches build this thing. Step by painstaking step.

 

[howieramone]

Not from anyone who isn't a complete and total idiot.

I completely agree. But the thought did go through my head, if he were fired the only ones dumb enough to take the job, would be Bob, John, Killjoy, and you and I.

You will never hear me criticize Kill and staff or any of our players. I learned the lesson the hard way when I wanted Cal Stoll ousted. I'm in complete support of the direction of our beloved program.

Go Gophers!

 

[Gopher Fan Chuck]

It will be interesting to see the progress of Nelson and Leidner by the end of summer.

 

[Killjoy]

howieramone

I completely agree. But the thought did go though my head, if he were fired the only ones dumb enough to take the job, would be Bob, John, Killjoy, and you and I.
You well never hear me criticize Kill and staff or any of our players. I learned the lesson the hard way when I wanted Cal Stoll ousted. I'm in complete support of the direction of our beloved program.

Go Gophers!

I resent that! I may be dumb but I am not that dumb!

 

[howieramone]

I resent that! I may be dumb but I am not that dumb!

It was meant as a compliment.

 

[Killjoy]

It was meant as a compliment.

Since you included yourself in the group I thought that was the case. It reminded me of how I feel about people running to become President of the United States. There most be something wrong with them because no sane person would want that job.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Since you included yourself in the group I thought that was the case. It reminded me of how I feel about people running to become President of the United States. There most be something wrong with them because no sane person would want that job.

I agree, especially considering that all of those people could make a lot of money and have comfortable lives doing something else.

 

[WHB Brewer]

After reading this thread, the choice is obvious. We better start Mr.Nelson this year, so we at least get to enjoy an all-time season before he declares for the 2013 NFL draft. Apparently he is the second coming........


Holy crap this thread is ridiculous. what will be interesting to see is what the reaction of all the rubes after you finally get to see young Phillip in action on Saturday.

 

[Parski1]

After reading this thread, the choice is obvious. We better start Mr.Nelson this year, so we at least get to enjoy an all-time season before he declares for the 2013 NFL draft. Apparently he is the second coming........

Holy crap this thread is ridiculous. what will be interesting to see is what the reaction of all the rubes after you finally get to see young Phillip in action on Saturday.

Some will do like early last year with Shortell - they will demand that Gray moves to WR and Nelson starts at QB.

 

[FreakyDeke]

After reading this thread, the choice is obvious. We better start Mr.Nelson this year, so we at least get to enjoy an all-time season before he declares for the 2013 NFL draft. Apparently he is the second coming........

Holy crap this thread is ridiculous. what will be interesting to see is what the reaction of all the rubes after you finally get to see young Phillip in action on Saturday.

Luckily he's not eligible

 

[zambam]

Some will do like early last year with Shortell - they will demand that Gray moves to WR and Nelson starts at QB.

Clearly Shortell should be made a TE, Gray moved back to WR, Foreman made a RB, and Leidner moved to DE. No need for other QBs with Nelson on the roster.