Gophers MBB is Bad but Future is Bright

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Bob_Loblaw said:
We ran into this quite a bit with Pitino where people would defend the poor results because of health. Barring an incredibly unlucky run of injuries, I don't think we can use this as an excuse. By year 3, we should start building depth and be able to withstand a reasonable number of injuries. They will happen.
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My favorite Pitino-era fan narrative was, when his third year turned out to be a total disaster, the army of fans claiming that "we always knew year 3 would be a train wreck."
 

Otis said:
Lol!

The future is bright and starts with Fox and Ihnen starting? You can’t actually be serious.

Stating that Cooper, Garcia and Battle are our best players, you actually think a guy who played at Augustana college in SD at 6’8” with multiple ACL tears and an unproven 5th year Junior which multiple ACLs should start instead of a 7’ 5* recruit and a Mr Illinois Basketball finalist or one of the four freshman who have performed better than Ihnen in their inaugural seasons!

It’s such a bad take I’m rambling!

Ihnen and Fox would do the best for the teams future by going away and letting the other players develop.

Oh, and you still need a pg who can guard quick penetration type guards.
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Northern State, not Augie. A much superior school. :cool:
 


You will never change the course of losing basketball until you change the athletic director.
 


howeda7 said:
Northern State, not Augie. A much superior school. :cool:
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In the big scheme of things does it matter once you say South Dakota university basketball? I mean any of them.

Outside of a couple Jackrabbit teams anyway. He’s no Dauminator!
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
My favorite Pitino-era fan narrative was, when his third year turned out to be a total disaster, the army of fans claiming that "we always knew year 3 would be a train wreck."
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I was one of them. You live through it once and you learn that at some point, there is no recovering. When the honeymoon is over and there is still no momentum- it all just gets tougher from there. Pitino never go momentum and the year it finally looked like it would- exploded on him with the Lynch issue and then the injuries.

Really, Ben has to have some success next year.
 


bga1 said:
I was one of them. You live through it once and you learn that at some point, there is no recovering. When the honeymoon is over and there is still no momentum- it all just gets tougher from there. Pitino never go momentum and the year it finally looked like it would- exploded on him with the Lynch issue and then the injuries.

Really, Ben has to have some success next year.
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There was no honeymoon for Johnson with some of the posters in here but yeah, there needs to be some signs of progress next year or he will be in a tough spot heading into year 4 if he even makes it there.
 



Gopher Teeth said:
Yeah the current roster construction makes no sense, I can’t see how it’s going to work.
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Just my opinion and in no particular order but the most likely of the current players we see those three from are as follows:

Thompson- not likely to see the floor at all the next couple of years
Fox-two knee injuries and a log jam in the post
Ihnen-basically the same as Fox. Likely done with his degree as well.
Garcia-will be a junior on a team that is unlikely to make the tournament. May decide to get paid instead.
Betts-redshift freshman next year with players in front of him. I’m sure he expects to get minutes next year. Not sure where you even find 5 minutes a game for him with this roster.
 

Dupreefor3 said:
Contrary to Flecks beliefs, momentum matters and if you're bad for too long perception becomes reality
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Fleck didn't have much momentum before our 11-2 season. I think recruits are smart enough to know that what matters is who you will be playing with...rather than what past players did.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
My favorite Pitino-era fan narrative was, when his third year turned out to be a total disaster, the army of fans claiming that "we always knew year 3 would be a train wreck."
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Pitino inherited a team with no freshmen or sophomores on it. So OF COURSE year 3 was going to be bad. I absolutely knew that.
 

forever a gopher said:
People firm in the CBJ "can do no wrong" camp often like to speak in hyperbole and act righteous as if it's some cause they've taken up. This is a site of die-hards. Which, last time I checked, isn't over flowing with patronage as compared to some of our rivals. But this is the group that will be there when the ship gets turned around (whether it's CBJ or some hire after). It's the common fan that is often lost, not the people on sites like this. I have been critical of CBJ, but have attend a half-dozen games this year, attended the open practice, and have watched every minute of action. I can want this coaching staff and program to succeed and talk realistically at the same time. Just because you're a fan doesn't mean you have to pretend things are better than they are.

Attendance at Williams/Mariucci/Huntington took a hit after the scholarship seating fiasco. Huntington has largely come back due to the team's performance. Mariucci is still clawing it's way back. The combination of scholarship seating and move to the B1G was a bit of a perfect storm. I was at the game on Saturday, and it was a full house and once again a great place to be. The hockey team has been good to excellent for the majority of Motzko's tenure, but attendance has been slow to recover. It's not nearly as easy to get fans back as some allude. There very much is a cautionary tale for the basketball team in there somewhere.
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This site is like the rest of fandom. Win and the coach is a genius...lose and the coach is a bum...regardless of the circumstances. And with several undercover fans of other teams mixed in.
 



MNVCGUY said:
There was no honeymoon for Johnson with some of the posters in here but yeah, there needs to be some signs of progress next year or he will be in a tough spot heading into year 4 if he even makes it there.
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I think people are being fair. I can recall a thread from last year when we pulled off an upset and we had a really nice record, where people who thought the hire was bad, stated that they were wrong and Ben was doing an amazing job. Give people just a sniff of success and things will be better. This year has been tough. There is very little anger directed at Ben. Most of it is at the AD and Gabel for putting Ben in this situation.

Contrast that with people who called Pitino lil Richard or Pee Wee Herman as soon as the losing started in year 2.

Ben can recruit and could at some point be a really good Big Ten coach. It is quite a mountain to climb here.
 

EasyThere Pilgrim said:
Fleck didn't have much momentum before our 11-2 season. I think recruits are smart enough to know that what matters is who you will be playing with...rather than what past players did.
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He was 7-6 (3-6) in his second season, and thoroughly outplayed Georgia Tech 34-10 in the bowl win. If the basketball team had a .500 overall record and .333 B1G winning % this year, I think there would be very little complaining, as there would be progress shown. Name even one game that this team has thoroughly outplayed a P6 team to give us any sort of hope.
 

CPTMidnight said:
For a good trajectory I think we need:

3-4 wins yet this year
Players to remain (they will)
Solid point guard portal addition to compete for the starting spot
Everyone to remain healthy
Evans and Christie to have an immediate impact
Freshmen to get a huge sophomore jump in skills/confidence
8-10 wins next year
Trajectory and Vision attracts an Asuma or other high level talent.
This will lead to following year having high expectations - and rightfully so.

Tall order? Yes. Easy to poke holes? Yes.
Gentleman, this is probably the only path to have fun with Gopher basketball in the next 5 years.
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So you and I clearly are on opposite ends of the spectrum (totally fine). But I hope you understand how some of us are very frustrated. You have laid out 5 things that you are essentially saying need to go perfect for us to go 8-12 in league. The odds those 5 things all happen is essentially 0, but if they do we should hope for a 9th place??? I just think the bar is so low its disturbing. And don't get me wrong, we aren't Duke-uk-unc , heck for that matter Purdue or Illinois, but hoping and praying for every break to finish under 500 in conference?

Furthermore, "this is the only path to have fun" is so wrong I don't even know how to really reply. Again, people this isn't 1974, you can build teams incredibly quick. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible. Penn St, Missouri, Iowa St are quick examples of things that turned pretty quickly. Stop with the "it takes 5 years" thing, it's categorically incorrect.
 

forever a gopher said:
He was 7-6 (3-6) in his second season, and thoroughly outplayed Georgia Tech 34-10 in the bowl win. If the basketball team had a .500 overall record and .333 B1G winning % this year, I think there would be very little complaining, as there would be progress shown. Name even one game that this team has thoroughly outplayed a P6 team to give us any sort of hope.
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If Ben copied Fleck and was .500 in big ten play and undefeated in post regular season games through year six, he would be a shoo-in for the hall of fame!

Just saying
 


leib0039 said:
So you and I clearly are on opposite ends of the spectrum (totally fine). But I hope you understand how some of us are very frustrated. You have laid out 5 things that you are essentially saying need to go perfect for us to go 8-12 in league. The odds those 5 things all happen is essentially 0, but if they do we should hope for a 9th place??? I just think the bar is so low its disturbing. And don't get me wrong, we aren't Duke-uk-unc , heck for that matter Purdue or Illinois, but hoping and praying for every break to finish under 500 in conference?

Furthermore, "this is the only path to have fun" is so wrong I don't even know how to really reply. Again, people this isn't 1974, you can build teams incredibly quick. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible. Penn St, Missouri, Iowa St are quick examples of things that turned pretty quickly. Stop with the "it takes 5 years" thing, it's categorically incorrect.
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I am not an advocate for Ben in this post. This is the best trajectory to competitive basketball that we will see in the next few years. It is not impossible nor even a stretch. It might be a bit on the optimistic side.

For the record: No matter what happens, Ben will be here next year and, barring a complete disaster, will be here the following year. The administration could have chosen anybody, they chose Ben. I am not sure how wishing for different coach helps...

A person could either have some fun with the possibilities or get rekt.
 

leib0039 said:
So you and I clearly are on opposite ends of the spectrum (totally fine). But I hope you understand how some of us are very frustrated. You have laid out 5 things that you are essentially saying need to go perfect for us to go 8-12 in league. The odds those 5 things all happen is essentially 0, but if they do we should hope for a 9th place??? I just think the bar is so low its disturbing. And don't get me wrong, we aren't Duke-uk-unc , heck for that matter Purdue or Illinois, but hoping and praying for every break to finish under 500 in conference?

Furthermore, "this is the only path to have fun" is so wrong I don't even know how to really reply. Again, people this isn't 1974, you can build teams incredibly quick. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible. Penn St, Missouri, Iowa St are quick examples of things that turned pretty quickly. Stop with the "it takes 5 years" thing, it's categorically incorrect.
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I share your frustration, and speaking of 1974, I was there watching Thompson, Saunders, etc. during those years. Except for Clem's time, it's been very difficult to be a fan. I have some mixed feelings about Ben, but I do see that the guy can recruit, and that remains our only hope. I don't believe all 5 of those things in the previous post have to happen to have some success next year: They don't have to win a certain number of games this year, and they don't have to completely avoid injuries next year-it's impossible.

But let me throw something out there that I understand is complete conjecture, but I think it gives them a chance to be much better next year-a starting 5 of:

-Transfer portal point guard that can shoot, distribute, and play defense-this of course would be a big get, but it's possible. I would take Holloman if he wanted to return, but that's unlikely.

-Henley starts at the 2. I know a lot of people on this board talk about him as a Div 2 guy, and he's been out of control for a good part of the season, but he's been one of their better players in the last 2 games. He would need to make a big jump, but I think he will. Why? He's 6-7, handles the ball well, can play some defense, gets his hands on a lot of balls, has very good quickness, can get by people on the dribble (really needed on this team), can get off the ground and get his shot off, and he's shown lately that he can pass it as well. And he has the reputation as a decent shooter, although he hasn't shown much of it this year, but he will. This kid is going to be a player.

-Battle at the 3-it would be nice if he can improve his lateral quickness a bit to guard other 3's, but his shooting is pretty elite

-Garcia at the 4-he's been their best player, and it would be surprising if he didn't come back

-Evans-this is somewhat unknown, but you don't get judged as a top 2 or 3 center in the country and the best rim protector in the country unless you're pretty damn effective-he will improve their team defense quite a bit. Then you can have 4 shooters (yes, that includes Henley) surrounding Evans to keep the floor spread more effectively.

The bench- Cooper, JOJ, Payne, Christie, Carrington, maybe Betts?

Payne is a mystery-Either he doesn't have permission to drive to the hole or shoot a jumper or he's afraid. He's got a whole lot of talent that hasn't been shown yet, and I hope he can get past whatever he's fighting.

That's a decent bench with guys that have some experience, and that will give them 9 or 10 guys for depth. It's not fantasy to think something like this can happen to improve the team quite a bit. I'm not betting on it, but hope springs eternal.. Let the ripping begin!!
 

bga1 said:
This is spot on.

The point guard has to be better than solid though. Needs to be speedy with the ability to help the team get up court quickly and score off the break, set up shooters like Battle by breaking the defense down and then defend the opposing PG, preventing the easy penetration we see today from opposing teams.
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The point guard you speak of would be wonderful, but there is no way the player you speak of is coming to the U.
 


Lion King said:
The point guard you speak of would be wonderful, but there is no way the player you speak of is coming to the U.
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Did the U ban good point guards from coming here? I didn't hear that. I'm not suggesting that it's incredibly likely, but it's certainly possible. To suggest there is zero chance doesn't seem real reasonable.
 

Formerswish said:
Did the U ban good point guards from coming here? I didn't hear that. I'm not suggesting that it's incredibly likely, but it's certainly possible. To suggest there is zero chance doesn't seem real reasonable.
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I'd say the likelihood of a program changing PG coming here next year is as likely as everyone coming back, Evans being a fr all American and our 4 fr all taking massive jumps. Impossible no, unlikely very much yes
 

CPTMidnight said:
For a good trajectory I think we need:

3-4 wins yet this year
Players to remain (they will)
Solid point guard portal addition to compete for the starting spot
Everyone to remain healthy
Evans and Christie to have an immediate impact
Freshmen to get a huge sophomore jump in skills/confidence
8-10 wins next year
Trajectory and Vision attracts an Asuma or other high level talent.
This will lead to following year having high expectations - and rightfully so.

Tall order? Yes. Easy to poke holes? Yes.
Gentleman, this is probably the only path to have fun with Gopher basketball in the next 5 years.
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So you have convinced Thompson to leave or somebody else? So we can add this point guard?
And then Ben is going Texas Tech style and playing 13 guys?
If Ihnen and Fox are healthy....there is no chance they are not playing. And if you think Ben "cuts" them I'd be beyond surprised. If they are healthy they are better than the 5 freshmen...maybe Henley beats out Christie....he has potential and we have a spot for him or Christie if Christie isn't ready. Play both we are up to 9 guys. Play Payne up to 10. Ben has stated multiple times he likes playing 7 .... he could change his mind but...
I have no idea who stays and who goes but if they are all back the 5 returning freshmen are the guys out.
 

Formerswish said:
I share your frustration, and speaking of 1974, I was there watching Thompson, Saunders, etc. during those years. Except for Clem's time, it's been very difficult to be a fan. I have some mixed feelings about Ben, but I do see that the guy can recruit, and that remains our only hope. I don't believe all 5 of those things in the previous post have to happen to have some success next year: They don't have to win a certain number of games this year, and they don't have to completely avoid injuries next year-it's impossible.

But let me throw something out there that I understand is complete conjecture, but I think it gives them a chance to be much better next year-a starting 5 of:

-Transfer portal point guard that can shoot, distribute, and play defense-this of course would be a big get, but it's possible. I would take Holloman if he wanted to return, but that's unlikely.

-Henley starts at the 2. I know a lot of people on this board talk about him as a Div 2 guy, and he's been out of control for a good part of the season, but he's been one of their better players in the last 2 games. He would need to make a big jump, but I think he will. Why? He's 6-7, handles the ball well, can play some defense, gets his hands on a lot of balls, has very good quickness, can get by people on the dribble (really needed on this team), can get off the ground and get his shot off, and he's shown lately that he can pass it as well. And he has the reputation as a decent shooter, although he hasn't shown much of it this year, but he will. This kid is going to be a player.

-Battle at the 3-it would be nice if he can improve his lateral quickness a bit to guard other 3's, but his shooting is pretty elite

-Garcia at the 4-he's been their best player, and it would be surprising if he didn't come back

-Evans-this is somewhat unknown, but you don't get judged as a top 2 or 3 center in the country and the best rim protector in the country unless you're pretty damn effective-he will improve their team defense quite a bit. Then you can have 4 shooters (yes, that includes Henley) surrounding Evans to keep the floor spread more effectively.

The bench- Cooper, JOJ, Payne, Christie, Carrington, maybe Betts?

Payne is a mystery-Either he doesn't have permission to drive to the hole or shoot a jumper or he's afraid. He's got a whole lot of talent that hasn't been shown yet, and I hope he can get past whatever he's fighting.

That's a decent bench with guys that have some experience, and that will give them 9 or 10 guys for depth. It's not fantasy to think something like this can happen to improve the team quite a bit. I'm not betting on it, but hope springs eternal.. Let the ripping begin!!
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What are you doing with Ihnen and Fox? Ben isn't playing 11 or 13 or 10. Henley could be the guy...I see that but it is going to take a significant improvement. He's got 11 games to keep ascending this season. Then he has to beat out Christie....not saying he can't do that...I don't know. I'd welcome it.
We need a transfer for a new point guard. Be nice if it was Thompson, but life isn't often that easy. Four other guys might leave and we are in the portal for multiple guys. It's pretty unpredictable.
 


Formerswish said:
I share your frustration, and speaking of 1974, I was there watching Thompson, Saunders, etc. during those years. Except for Clem's time, it's been very difficult to be a fan. I have some mixed feelings about Ben, but I do see that the guy can recruit, and that remains our only hope. I don't believe all 5 of those things in the previous post have to happen to have some success next year: They don't have to win a certain number of games this year, and they don't have to completely avoid injuries next year-it's impossible.

But let me throw something out there that I understand is complete conjecture, but I think it gives them a chance to be much better next year-a starting 5 of:

-Transfer portal point guard that can shoot, distribute, and play defense-this of course would be a big get, but it's possible. I would take Holloman if he wanted to return, but that's unlikely.

-Henley starts at the 2. I know a lot of people on this board talk about him as a Div 2 guy, and he's been out of control for a good part of the season, but he's been one of their better players in the last 2 games. He would need to make a big jump, but I think he will. Why? He's 6-7, handles the ball well, can play some defense, gets his hands on a lot of balls, has very good quickness, can get by people on the dribble (really needed on this team), can get off the ground and get his shot off, and he's shown lately that he can pass it as well. And he has the reputation as a decent shooter, although he hasn't shown much of it this year, but he will. This kid is going to be a player.

-Battle at the 3-it would be nice if he can improve his lateral quickness a bit to guard other 3's, but his shooting is pretty elite

-Garcia at the 4-he's been their best player, and it would be surprising if he didn't come back

-Evans-this is somewhat unknown, but you don't get judged as a top 2 or 3 center in the country and the best rim protector in the country unless you're pretty damn effective-he will improve their team defense quite a bit. Then you can have 4 shooters (yes, that includes Henley) surrounding Evans to keep the floor spread more effectively.

The bench- Cooper, JOJ, Payne, Christie, Carrington, maybe Betts?

Payne is a mystery-Either he doesn't have permission to drive to the hole or shoot a jumper or he's afraid. He's got a whole lot of talent that hasn't been shown yet, and I hope he can get past whatever he's fighting.

That's a decent bench with guys that have some experience, and that will give them 9 or 10 guys for depth. It's not fantasy to think something like this can happen to improve the team quite a bit. I'm not betting on it, but hope springs eternal.. Let the ripping begin!!
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Battle isn’t an elite shooter. Duncan Robinson shot 42% on 3s. He’s an elite shooter.

Nate Mason shot a higher percentage than Battle does.
 

60's Guy said:
What are you doing with Ihnen and Fox? Ben isn't playing 11 or 13 or 10. Henley could be the guy...I see that but it is going to take a significant improvement. He's got 11 games to keep ascending this season. Then he has to beat out Christie....not saying he can't do that...I don't know. I'd welcome it.
We need a transfer for a new point guard. Be nice if it was Thompson, but life isn't often that easy. Four other guys might leave and we are in the portal for multiple guys. It's pretty unpredictable.
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Freshmen always have to prove themselves as others come in the next season. I recall Isaiah Dahlman getting playing time as a freshman with Izzo at Michigan State. Some talented freshmen came in the next year and Isaiah never found the floor again. He chose to be a super practice player on the team, even though Izzo counseled him to leave and go to a school where he could get playing time.
Kids have played this game since elementary school. They know they have to compete in order to play. Competition in the program is a good thing.
 

60's Guy said:
What are you doing with Ihnen and Fox? Ben isn't playing 11 or 13 or 10. Henley could be the guy...I see that but it is going to take a significant improvement. He's got 11 games to keep ascending this season. Then he has to beat out Christie....not saying he can't do that...I don't know. I'd welcome it.
We need a transfer for a new point guard. Be nice if it was Thompson, but life isn't often that easy. Four other guys might leave and we are in the portal for multiple guys. It's pretty unpredictable.
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You make a good point about Ihnen and Fox, I must admit I wasn't considering them, in part because there's a lot of doubt about their recovery, but I still believe Ihnen has a better chance to play some minutes between the two because he can guard so many positions on defense. I think Ben would have to expand how many people he's playing, I think he's played about 7-8 before because he had to. The competition for the wing position will be very interesting next year.

And in terms of Thompson, he's made more progress this year than I thought he would. I still don't see many minutes for him next year, but if he keeps progressing maybe he'll work his way up. Ben was quoted talking about TT shooting every morning at 6am. That's impressive. And Ihnen and Fox playing ahead of Payne and JOJ? I don't see that happening, but if Ihnen shows he can shoot it as well as defend (assuming his knee holds up), that could happen. All guesswork, but fun guesswork.
 

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