btowngopher
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True, at some point the valleys can outweigh your peaks.
GopherHolers: A Fleck temperature check
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Breakin' The Plane
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I'd give up pretty much anything for a Rose Bowl. And to tack on a Sugar Bowl to boot? Easy decision for me.
Pompous Elitist
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Yep. Kind of silly to just look at raw win numbers or winning percentages.
I think we’d all agree PJ has arguably (depending how much stock you put in ratings) raised the talent levels everywhere on both sides of the ball. Great speaker, motivator, leader. On the negative side AK was a big miss at QB. Special teams has hurt the team year in and year out in terms of field position, expected points. PJ famously gets sand in his gears trying to nurse small leads, manage time, high pressure game scenarios. Running down the clock even when behind is less than ideal? Currently MN is the off-brand version of Iowa or old-style WI without same eye for talent, or development. What are/were they doing that PJ isn’t?
bleedsmaroonandgold
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That's always an interesting philosophical question for me. For me winning titles (college conference, NCAA, or pro championship) go a long way to letting me put up with bad seasons. I've been in MN since 2006, and the most sports fun I've had have been the Lynx titles (was fortunate enough to be in attendance for multiple title clinching games), the PWHL title this year, our run of Gopher womens hockey natties, and some of the men's hockey teams conference titles. I'd trade a lot of sub-playoff years to keep those memories. Conversely, the Wild, Twins, and Vikings have all had lengthy runs of competitive teams that never get over the top. I've enjoyed those runs in the moment, but they aren't the memories that stick with me.
There is certainly is a limit. If I could make a deal with the devil to have the Wild win the cup this year, and then never make the playoffs again in my life, I wouldn't take that deal.
SeaBee_Gopher
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Did you notice ~90% of the poll answers were in the reasonable middle two answers range?
Bad - Can’t take this for much longer. Seat should be warm at least
Votes: 5336.3%So-so - Don’t want him fired, but need to see improvement
MNVCGUY
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The fringe voices are often the loudest because they have to be obnoxious in order to get anyone to pay attention to their stupid posts.
PMWinSTP
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It absolutely does.
Some Day...Maybe
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4 mil is a lot less than 6 mil. 5 mil is a million less than 6 mil.
Some Day...Maybe
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Fleck hasn’t been near the coach coming out of WMU since 2019. That’s 5 years. In the last year he hasn’t been as good as Kill.
btowngopher
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Yeah but by the time the new guy was doing anything similar to what Fleck did we’d have to throw an extension at him so he’d be making more than 6 mil.
btowngopher
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Unfortunately Jerry didn’t stick around long enough for us to witness if he would have down years. I assume he wasn’t going to go 8-5 every year.
dbradford29
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OC is 80% is what's wrong with this team. His play calling is horrible. If I blame PJ for anything is keeping him around for another season. I was very critical of AK play last season and now I'm beginning to think it wasn't just him after all. Although the word on the street was AK wasn't a true leader and he partied too much. I believe in Max and he will definitely get it together by the time we face Iowa.
PMWinSTP
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Fleck hired the OC. It's very clear that he exerts a very conservative offensive philosophy on the program.
You left out some important context:
Mason had
1.) zero Admin support
2.) played in the off-campus, shared Dome competing with monster truck shows and tractor pulls
3.) no budget for coordinators
4.) zero success in the preceding 10 years to build off of
What Mason accomplished here is nothing short of amazing. Yes, I was angry after the collapses (Michigan and TT still haunt me) but he was a way better coach than Fleck or Kill.
Mason might have had choke jobs with his defense, but at least his teams were fun watches and had an offensive identity. Don't think PJ or Kill ever went on the road to get wins against top 10 teams. I think Mason could have done far greater things if he had the resources Kill and PJ have currently.
EasyThere Pilgrim
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Coaching? We're still talking about coaching??
Some Day...Maybe
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That’s why if Fleck doesn’t nail the next OC hire he should be shit canned.
The last season kill was the coach the team literally had the identical season to last year ?
I could see that. He probably has 2 seasons to have another up year (including this year)
Gopherchase
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We had some improbable losses, but we also had fun. Those offenses were awesome and even in defeat it was entertaining. The stuff that we’ve been subjected to for sure the last year or so and arguably back to 2020 has been like getting red hot pokers shoved into your eyeballs from a O perspective.
Lou Brown
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I went to Monster Jam at the Dome. F word awesome!
What does this prove? PJ is the best of a mediocre bunch of coaches? I believe Mason could have won at least one B1G Waste division "title." PJ has had the luxury of coaching in the Mountain West East Division and couldn't make it to the top. I've never been a fan of his schtick, but was always supportive because I was told his players bought in. But that was a different era. His bit isn't and doesn't work.
PJ is playing 4D Chess. Mason was fired because he blew huge leads vs. Michigan and Texas Tech. PJ knows this and there are 3 possible solutions. First, he could build a lock down D so that the other team cannot stage a comeback - this is hard and takes time. Second, he could make great in-game adjustments - but, this would go against his nature. Third, he could use an O scheme so terrible that we are never able to build the big lead in the first place - PJ went with option 3. 4D chess I tell you.
walrus
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When I was 13 years old Warmath’s Men won a NC and lost the RB game to Washington in 1960I’m 77 now and can’t believe some here might actually throw in the towel after losing one game…the first game. Buck up. Win the next game. Play better. Shock the crap out of some of these quitters! I’ve seen a wide range of football from my Gopher team over the decades.
Some folks really know their football, have really high expectations and all that good stuff . But they get so upset and po’d and want to fire people.
Guess I feel lucky to not know much football yet still just keep rooting for wins. Big Ten wins especially!
Some folks really know their football, have really high expectations and all that good stuff . But they get so upset and po’d and want to fire people.
Guess I feel lucky to not know much football yet still just keep rooting for wins. Big Ten wins especially!
Gopherbro47
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I am firmly in the “can’t take this much longer, seat should be warm at least” camp, but also understand based on his contract and buyout status he is very secure until at least the end of next season.
My frustrations with Fleck are primarily about how he approaches games more than the actual results (although a different approach would have almost certainly resulted in at least 2 more wins last year, and already one more win this year). Of course I’d love to see him throw the ball some more, take more chances when near the end zone (not a coincidence we were 93rd in red zone td% last year), but also understand his approach to take points when you have the opportunity and appreciate not turning the ball over a ton down there when you have a very good kicker. I appreciate that his teams are typically smart with how they play the game and avoid stupid penalties that many college teams struggle with. I appreciate that they typically have solid defense and enjoy their approach on that side of the ball to limit the explosives.
What I don’t like is his fake “confidence” in his players, his horrible special teams, and his strict risk averse play calling. His teams are the definition of playing not to lose, which at times can steal a game by not messing up, but more often results in tight games and letting things slip away because you can’t take advantage of your opportunities. He consistently makes the game harder for his own players by not trusting them to make plays when they need them and instead putting them in worse positions to succeed. If you give them a chance to make something happen maybe they will succeed, maybe they will fail, but at least they got a chance to make a big play rather than running into a 9 man box without your best receivers off the field which has a much lower chance of success. We wonder why his passing game struggles? I guarantee a factor is his clear lack of belief in his own players in a sport where confidence is exceedingly important. He didn’t have the same approach when he first got here, and I think the OSU game in 2021 is the last time I remember him truly trying to win a game against an elite opponent rather than simply trying to avoid a blowout loss.
I am not frustrated with his overall record and still believe he is a solid coach, but I also don’t think his brand of football is super fun to watch and think his approach has lost more games that they should have won than the other way around. I am fully okay with giving him this season to prove he can change his best (although game one was not very encouraging in that respect). I don’t even care if the overall results are much better, I just want to watch a team that is confident, fun to watch and looks like they actually enjoy playing football rather than scared of messing up.
My frustrations with Fleck are primarily about how he approaches games more than the actual results (although a different approach would have almost certainly resulted in at least 2 more wins last year, and already one more win this year). Of course I’d love to see him throw the ball some more, take more chances when near the end zone (not a coincidence we were 93rd in red zone td% last year), but also understand his approach to take points when you have the opportunity and appreciate not turning the ball over a ton down there when you have a very good kicker. I appreciate that his teams are typically smart with how they play the game and avoid stupid penalties that many college teams struggle with. I appreciate that they typically have solid defense and enjoy their approach on that side of the ball to limit the explosives.
What I don’t like is his fake “confidence” in his players, his horrible special teams, and his strict risk averse play calling. His teams are the definition of playing not to lose, which at times can steal a game by not messing up, but more often results in tight games and letting things slip away because you can’t take advantage of your opportunities. He consistently makes the game harder for his own players by not trusting them to make plays when they need them and instead putting them in worse positions to succeed. If you give them a chance to make something happen maybe they will succeed, maybe they will fail, but at least they got a chance to make a big play rather than running into a 9 man box without your best receivers off the field which has a much lower chance of success. We wonder why his passing game struggles? I guarantee a factor is his clear lack of belief in his own players in a sport where confidence is exceedingly important. He didn’t have the same approach when he first got here, and I think the OSU game in 2021 is the last time I remember him truly trying to win a game against an elite opponent rather than simply trying to avoid a blowout loss.
I am not frustrated with his overall record and still believe he is a solid coach, but I also don’t think his brand of football is super fun to watch and think his approach has lost more games that they should have won than the other way around. I am fully okay with giving him this season to prove he can change his best (although game one was not very encouraging in that respect). I don’t even care if the overall results are much better, I just want to watch a team that is confident, fun to watch and looks like they actually enjoy playing football rather than scared of messing up.
disco
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You don't have high expectations.
BilldGopher
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Mase's first game was in Honolulu versus the Rainbow Warriors. They were just as bad then as they are now. They opened a can of whoop-ass on our Gophers to be sure.
That is where he started. He did accomplish a lot but got us only so far.
Need Coach Fleck to change his best.
I will expand a bit on his accomplishments with my context from the last post:
In the preceding 5 years before Mason, the Gophers had a record of 16-39, a .29 win % with 8 Big Ten wins. Further, the last bowl appearance was 12 years prior during Lou Holtz.
In his 10 season, the Gophers were ranked in the AP Top 25 during 6 seasons (in season) and finished ranked 2 times.
Compared to Fleck, the Gophers had a record of 37-28, .57 win % with 18 Big Ten wins in the preceding 5 years. They also had been to a bowl in each of the preceding 5 years and were coming off of a 9-4 season and were pretty stacked with NFL quality talent (Winfield, Johnson, etc).
Also, in Fleck's 7 full seasons, we have been ranked 3 times in season and finished ranked once.
Reminder, this was all done with the extremely favorable B1G conference set up.
What Mason did here was nothing short of amazing given the situation he inherited. Mason was cursed by the old timers that still remembered Rose Bowls - I have been a Gopher fan for going on 30 years and I am way more realistic about what is possible here so I think I give him a much more balanced assessment.
Outside of an amazing season built on inherited talent, Fleck has been an average coach here. Unfortunately for Mason, Fleck is compared in the minds of fans posting here that only seem to remember "8-win Kill" and the Brewster dumpster fire without any further ambition for the team. To date, I think Mason was a better coach than Fleck despite his inherited situation on the field - not to mention the situation off of it as I highlighted in my last post.
gophernut1
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Why I am optimistic:
1.) There were a dozen or so plays that seemed to go against the Gophers, where if any one of them change we win.
2.) The defense seemed legit, as does the overall talent on the team (weak at WR, and OL seemed to be a weakness vs a strength).
3.) What Brosmer did in the final 2 minutes gives me reason and hope that he can throw receivers open and that the he seemed to gain confidence as the game went on.
4.) We will get Taylor back.
Why I am fearful:
1.) We got outcoached coming out of half (they made adjustments and we did not) which scares me for how we will adjust and coach game to game.
2.) I don't know if Fleck can change who Fleck is when it comes to calling games.
We did not lose to NC because of Fleck, but if Fleck coaches differently we do win that game. When we beat Iowa in a few weeks, people will be talking about how great Fleck is and talking about how we should beat Michigan (which we probably will). This team is good and we just laid an egg against a good opponent, but we did show we have things to build upon.
I trust in Fleck to get us where we need to go and I think it will be sooner than people think
1.) There were a dozen or so plays that seemed to go against the Gophers, where if any one of them change we win.
2.) The defense seemed legit, as does the overall talent on the team (weak at WR, and OL seemed to be a weakness vs a strength).
3.) What Brosmer did in the final 2 minutes gives me reason and hope that he can throw receivers open and that the he seemed to gain confidence as the game went on.
4.) We will get Taylor back.
Why I am fearful:
1.) We got outcoached coming out of half (they made adjustments and we did not) which scares me for how we will adjust and coach game to game.
2.) I don't know if Fleck can change who Fleck is when it comes to calling games.
We did not lose to NC because of Fleck, but if Fleck coaches differently we do win that game. When we beat Iowa in a few weeks, people will be talking about how great Fleck is and talking about how we should beat Michigan (which we probably will). This team is good and we just laid an egg against a good opponent, but we did show we have things to build upon.
I trust in Fleck to get us where we need to go and I think it will be sooner than people think
Take away the Wally "pick almost-6" and we score 10 points on under 250 yards of offense. Putting this another way, for the first 58 minutes of the game, we were held to under 200 yards of total offense - which would be behind 2023 Iowa (235 yards/game). If UNC turns out to be a powerhouse, I will take back everything on this. But, I don't see how this can be classified as anything but laying an egg at home given what we know at this time.
Fleck has never been capable of making in-game adjustments (seems to be a curse for all Gopher coaches) and if he cannot seem to figure out how to manage time-outs, I have no faith in his ability to adjust to things many times more complex.