Gopher Season Ticket Costs Going Way UP?

I never in my life saw so many people wearing Gopher clothes around town as I did on Thanksgiving week.

This is true but it is unbelievable how much has changed since then. Tomorrow (Friday) will be the first time in years I don't wear something maroon and gold. I don't pretend that it will make a difference but my pride for U football has been kicked to the curb. I have had both a neighbor and coworker say to me "you're not going to renew your tickets are you." These are sad times because these are the same people along with several others who were finally talking about Gopher football. Only now instead of the excitement and talk of beating Michigan, Iowa, and Nebraska, the entire focus has shifted to ticket prices. Not one person has said anything to me about Kill being B1G coach of the year or the upcoming bowl game. If these people were thinking at all about jumping on the bandwagon, it isn't going to happen now. I guess Norwood is convinced he can sell them to corporations because it won't be Joe Minnesota Citizen.
 

and I will probably keep the Twins tickets, because they don't treat me like an afterthought.

Yeah, those Twins are really investing in making their team better...three 90 plus loss seasons in a row. That's the kind of love I can live without.
 

This is true but it is unbelievable how much has changed since then. Tomorrow (Friday) will be the first time in years I don't wear something maroon and gold. I don't pretend that it will make a difference but my pride for U football has been kicked to the curb. I have had both a neighbor and coworker say to me "you're not going to renew your tickets are you." These are sad times because these are the same people along with several others who were finally talking about Gopher football. Only now instead of the excitement and talk of beating Michigan, Iowa, and Nebraska, the entire focus has shifted to ticket prices. Not one person has said anything to me about Kill being B1G coach of the year or the upcoming bowl game. If these people were thinking at all about jumping on the bandwagon, it isn't going to happen now. I guess Norwood is convinced he can sell them to corporations because it won't be Joe Minnesota Citizen.

I agree 100% with your post. I love the Gophers and will support the team, but my pride and excitement has been punched in the gut. I didn't even get happy when Coach Kill was named Big Ten Coach of the Year.

I relate it to dating a girl and she breaks up with you. She finds someone new and your stuck with the memories. I am undecided if I will keep my tickets. I will keep them next year, '16 is up in the air, and I just can't justify paying $1120 for a product that I paid $550 for in 2013. My wife and I actually were talking about adding two tickets for next season so we could take our entire family to games.
 

This is true but it is unbelievable how much has changed since then. Tomorrow (Friday) will be the first time in years I don't wear something maroon and gold. I don't pretend that it will make a difference but my pride for U football has been kicked to the curb. I have had both a neighbor and coworker say to me "you're not going to renew your tickets are you." These are sad times because these are the same people along with several others who were finally talking about Gopher football. Only now instead of the excitement and talk of beating Michigan, Iowa, and Nebraska, the entire focus has shifted to ticket prices. Not one person has said anything to me about Kill being B1G coach of the year or the upcoming bowl game. If these people were thinking at all about jumping on the bandwagon, it isn't going to happen now. I guess Norwood is convinced he can sell them to corporations because it won't be Joe Minnesota Citizen.

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You're so close!!!
 

I honestly thought the oddest part of the conversation was his telling me that the empty seats I saw were paid for. I am not challenging that, I am just saying it revealed a preference for an absentee sale over an invested attendee.

At $X per seat, Mr. Moneybags, vip season ticket holder, can afford to pick and choose the games he wants to go to and just let his seats go empty during non-conference play. At $2X, Mr. Moneybags may reconsider just letting his seats go idle and either use them himself or sell/give them to a friend. At $X per game, it's no big deal to skip a game, it's just the premium for having the seats for the (big rivalry) game. At $2X per game, that's too much to spend for empty seats, so I think you will begin to see someone using them.
 


Have customer relations or athletic department personnel replied to anyone's complaints or inquiries?
 

Have customer relations or athletic department personnel replied to anyone's complaints or inquiries?

Not sure if it is in this thread or another, but people have basically been told to give up their season tickets, as the ticket office already has someone lined up to buy them.
 

Have customer relations or athletic department personnel replied to anyone's complaints or inquiries?

Yes. Check up-thread at posts 412 and 423.

Also, I received a response from Kaler's office yesterday. Here's the text of that response:

Dear Mr. XXXX,

Thank you for taking the time to write me, and thank you for your support for Gopher football.

My priority as president is for the University of Minnesota to be excellent in all we do. That excellence in athletics requires us to be competitive. The additional funding generated by increasing scholarship seating donations is needed to help pay for our student-athletes' tuition, books, room and board, nutritional guidance, equipment, travel, athletic medicine, community service programs, leadership coaching, and life-skills development. We have not adjusted our scholarship seating donation levels since TCF Bank Stadium opened in 2009, and we are at a significant disadvantage compared to our Big Ten peers and their ability to fully support their student-athletes. We need this additional revenue to support our student-athletes to the fullest extent possible while continuing to maintain a balanced budget for the Athletics Department in the years to come.



Thanks again for sharing your concerns with me and Go Gophers!

Sincerely,

Eric W. Kaler

President
 




1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You're so close!!!

Funny. Personally, I am at 5. I won't renew. Will end my streak at 15-years or so. Sucks for me, but if the U can sell tix at these prices and gain the extra revenue to build the program than I guess it is probably the best thing and they will be better without me and my family and group. I'll still go to a couple games - when I can see a good opponent, on a nice day, when I don't have youth sports conflicts. Oh well.
 

If someone else brought this up I apologize caused I missed it...but some speculation I have is this. Does anyone remember when Denny Sanford gave all that money to build the HOF and he was rewarded with the unused club seats? If the University really had 80m in donations lined up for facilities then I could easily see them promising Land O Lakes and others all their high level donation seats that remain unsold. That way they suck a ton of donation money by assuming most will move to the lesser expensive sections and many who weren't paying before will now be paying 150-250, thus clearing out the middle sections of 500-1000 for the corporate fat cats. Thus I don't necessarily think the ticket office is bluffing when they say they know they can fill them. They probably already have.

That is a thought I had as well. Their thinking may be that some of those who can't afford the high priced tickets with the change will just move to a smaller donation area. And if they fill those high dollar seats with someone else (even if the seats are empty half the time) then overall it will be more season tickets and tickets sold.

I'm not sure if that will happen or not, but it could be there line of thinking.
 

At $X per seat, Mr. Moneybags, vip season ticket holder, can afford to pick and choose the games he wants to go to and just let his seats go empty during non-conference play. At $2X, Mr. Moneybags may reconsider just letting his seats go idle and either use them himself or sell/give them to a friend. At $X per game, it's no big deal to skip a game, it's just the premium for having the seats for the (big rivalry) game. At $2X per game, that's too much to spend for empty seats, so I think you will begin to see someone using them.

Sure. Unless you pay attention to reality and look at Gopher Hockey attendance. Also, plenty of corporate boxes for football with the lights out for the non-conference or Purdue/Illinois games. Same is likely true for the many corporate chairback/club seats that go empty but we're (as attending fans) not sure who owns them (rich folk or companies).
 

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You're so close!!!

I’m not sure if the following rant gets me to 5 or a sign of regression but your post really got me laughing and writing nonsense is therapeutic for me. I received a call from the ticket office today (no joke) and here is what spun through my head afterwards:

I got a phone call today from the U of M fan, I mean, customer relations department. There is nothing new to report that hasn’t already been said here except that I may have had a change of heart about this renewing/dropping tickets thing. After talking with the nice manager at customer relations (seriously, he was a nice guy), I have made a 180-degree turn only instead of making my customarily right-turn 180, this time I did it to the left.

I can see now that I’ve had this all wrong. What I’m planning to do now is become business partners with Norwood and double-down on other customers being willing to replace my sorry a$$ with theirs by sitting in my seats next season. That’s right, I plan to enter the brave new world of professional ticket scalping!!! Yes, I intend on joining the ranks of these same individuals I have so wrongfully criticized here on GH in past even going so far as to eat my unused game tickets rather than sell them to these unscrupulous, I mean, hard-working capitalists. Who would have thought as little as 24-hours ago Norby and me would become business partners? Certainly not me!

Not that any of you really cares but if you did, you might be asking yourself why take such a risk? Well, if Norwood and his good friends at Aspire are convinced they will have no problem getting 50,000 butts to buy the equivalent of a 60” high-end HD TV every year, why shouldn’t I? I mean, think about it. My contact at customer relations confidently told me that my first row, second deck tickets are the most requested seats during seating upgrade time and they’d have no problem backfilling my spots. It was as if a light went on in my admittedly limited noggin and those $$$ signs started popping up and dancing around. I said, “Honey, pack your bags, we’re going to Hawaii.”

So with that bit of encouragement, I decided to saddle up with Norby and sell my tickets to the highest bidder. Of course, this is a business which means in order to maximize the bottom line, I'll need to seek butts far and wide (I mean this both literally and figuratively given this is the Midwest). As the half-dozen or so enthusiastic GH proponents of this price increase have so aptly pointed out, us Minnesotan’s are cheap sonsabitches. Consequently, I’ll need to cast a net far and wide to fully maximize my profits. I plan to use state-of-the-art advertising resources like CL to reach out to exotic places like Madison, Lincoln, and Dallas/Fort Worth. As my newest and bestest friend Norby has taught me, damn the loyalty, customers are customers no matter where their butts come from.

I’m scared and excited but highly confident this will all work out. However, there are still a few wrinkles in my business plan I need to iron out. For one thing, I will need a name for this new enterprise of mine. Although subject to change, I might name my new little business venture:

1-Less-Brick, Ltd.

Or should it be Inc., Corp., or LLC? I’ve never really understood these things. Perhaps one of you guys from the Carlson School can explain this to me sometime. Another thing I’m not sure about is whether I should account for the value of my time when selling these tickets (again, you Carlson guys might have some suggestions)? Anyway, I’ll get it figured out in what should be a fun and hopefully very profitable enterprise.

I must admit that it will be a little depressing not being with all my fellow customers at TCF on fall Saturdays. But do know this, when I’m forgoing it at home, sitting in my barcalounger, in front of my new 60-inch HD TV, watching our beloved business product known as the Golden ones, I will be thinking of you all. Just know that while you are doing those deafening chants of “Nor-wood, Nor-wood, Nor-wood,” I will be there with you in spirit!

I know this will sadden many of you but this is going to cut into my time here on GH. But don’t worry, I will continue to check in regularly and provide you updates that you could care less about. In the meantime, wish me luck!

Let me end on this note by saying my business partner and I would like to remind you that during this blessed holiday season that you should always remember, you’re replaceable.

$KI-U-MAH and Go Gopher$
 



The problem with scalping tickets to Gopher football is that there is little market apart from the visits of Iowa, Nebraska, and Wisconsin. Even those three games don't sell like they used to. What happens is you buy football tickets through the U of M plus a donation depending on your location. The mark up on face value needed to break even is going to be a tall order. The professional scalpers might take a flyer on your seats, but don't expect to recoup your investment there. Those guys make their money by getting tickets cheaply and then undercutting the box office, not reaping big profits.
 



I’m not sure if the following rant gets me to 5 or a sign of regression but your post really got me laughing and writing nonsense is therapeutic for me. I received a call from the ticket office today (no joke) and here is what spun through my head afterwards:

I got a phone call today from the U of M fan, I mean, customer relations department. There is nothing new to report that hasn’t already been said here except that I may have had a change of heart about this renewing/dropping tickets thing. After talking with the nice manager at customer relations (seriously, he was a nice guy), I have made a 180-degree turn only instead of making my customarily right-turn 180, this time I did it to the left.

I can see now that I’ve had this all wrong. What I’m planning to do now is become business partners with Norwood and double-down on other customers being willing to replace my sorry a$$ with theirs by sitting in my seats next season. That’s right, I plan to enter the brave new world of professional ticket scalping!!! Yes, I intend on joining the ranks of these same individuals I have so wrongfully criticized here on GH in past even going so far as to eat my unused game tickets rather than sell them to these unscrupulous, I mean, hard-working capitalists. Who would have thought as little as 24-hours ago Norby and me would become business partners? Certainly not me!

Not that any of you really cares but if you did, you might be asking yourself why take such a risk? Well, if Norwood and his good friends at Aspire are convinced they will have no problem getting 50,000 butts to buy the equivalent of a 60” high-end HD TV every year, why shouldn’t I? I mean, think about it. My contact at customer relations confidently told me that my first row, second deck tickets are the most requested seats during seating upgrade time and they’d have no problem backfilling my spots. It was as if a light went on in my admittedly limited noggin and those $$$ signs started popping up and dancing around. I said, “Honey, pack your bags, we’re going to Hawaii.”

So with that bit of encouragement, I decided to saddle up with Norby and sell my tickets to the highest bidder. Of course, this is a business which means in order to maximize the bottom line, I'll need to seek butts far and wide (I mean this both literally and figuratively given this is the Midwest). As the half-dozen or so enthusiastic GH proponents of this price increase have so aptly pointed out, us Minnesotan’s are cheap sonsabitches. Consequently, I’ll need to cast a net far and wide to fully maximize my profits. I plan to use state-of-the-art advertising resources like CL to reach out to exotic places like Madison, Lincoln, and Dallas/Fort Worth. As my newest and bestest friend Norby has taught me, damn the loyalty, customers are customers no matter where their butts come from.

I’m scared and excited but highly confident this will all work out. However, there are still a few wrinkles in my business plan I need to iron out. For one thing, I will need a name for this new enterprise of mine. Although subject to change, I might name my new little business venture:

1-Less-Brick, Ltd.

Or should it be Inc., Corp., or LLC? I’ve never really understood these things. Perhaps one of you guys from the Carlson School can explain this to me sometime. Another thing I’m not sure about is whether I should account for the value of my time when selling these tickets (again, you Carlson guys might have some suggestions)? Anyway, I’ll get it figured out in what should be a fun and hopefully very profitable enterprise.

I must admit that it will be a little depressing not being with all my fellow customers at TCF on fall Saturdays. But do know this, when I’m forgoing it at home, sitting in my barcalounger, in front of my new 60-inch HD TV, watching our beloved business product known as the Golden ones, I will be thinking of you all. Just know that while you are doing those deafening chants of “Nor-wood, Nor-wood, Nor-wood,” I will be there with you in spirit!

I know this will sadden many of you but this is going to cut into my time here on GH. But don’t worry, I will continue to check in regularly and provide you updates that you could care less about. In the meantime, wish me luck!

Let me end on this note by saying my business partner and I would like to remind you that during this blessed holiday season that you should always remember, you’re replaceable.

$KI-U-MAH and Go Gopher$

Wren 2.0
 

Yeah, those Twins are really investing in making their team better...three 90 plus loss seasons in a row. That's the kind of love I can live without.

The irony of this statement on a Gopher message board is too much for me to handle. It really is.

The Twins are the most successful franchise in this state since 1980 (34 years) and it's not even close.

Gopher Football: Do I really need to rehash this?
Gopher Basketball: 7 recognized tournament appearances. 1 recognized elite 8 run.
Vikings: 8 division titles. 10-17 playoff record. 0-4 in conference championship games.
Timberwolves: 1 Divison title. Advanced past first round of playoffs once. No championships.
Wild: 5 playoff appearances. No Stanley Cup appearances. (I'll admit they are too young to judge at this point).
Twins: 2 World Championships. 8 Division Titles. 2-0 in World Series. 2-1 in ALCS.

I really can't get over the 3 bad seasons quote on the Gopher message board. It's truly priceless. They could lose 100 games a year until 2030 and they'd still have a better last 50 years than the Gophers in both Football and Basketball.
 


Not sure if it is in this thread or another, but people have basically been told to give up their season tickets, as the ticket office already has someone lined up to buy them.

My email to Norwood Teague finally netted an email today from the Fan Relations dept. letting me know a manager would be happy to speak to me about my concerns. Based on the conversations with those folks reported here I'm thinking I will not waste my time. Folks can say what they want about Joel Maturi but when I raised concerns directly with him years ago (ironically about scholarship donations in Mariucci at the time) I received a response from him. Would a conversation directly with Norwood make a difference in this situation? Likely not but would have been nice to have the opportunity. Disappointing but I guess that is business.
 

The irony of this statement on a Gopher message board is too much for me to handle. It really is.

The Twins are the most successful franchise in this state since 1980 (34 years) and it's not even close.

Gopher Football: Do I really need to rehash this?
Gopher Basketball: 7 recognized tournament appearances. 1 recognized elite 8 run.
Vikings: 8 division titles. 10-17 playoff record. 0-4 in conference championship games.
Timberwolves: 1 Divison title. Advanced past first round of playoffs once. No championships.
Wild: 5 playoff appearances. No Stanley Cup appearances. (I'll admit they are too young to judge at this point).
Twins: 2 World Championships. 8 Division Titles. 2-0 in World Series. 2-0 in ALCS.

I really can't get over the 3 bad seasons quote on the Gopher message board. It's truly priceless. They could lose 100 games a year until 2030 and they'd still have a better last 50 years than the Gophers in both Football and Basketball.

Nitpicking, but the Twins lost an ALCS to the Rally Monkey.
 

The irony of this statement on a Gopher message board is too much for me to handle. It really is.

The Twins are the most successful franchise in this state since 1980 (34 years) and it's not even close.

Gopher Football: Do I really need to rehash this?
Gopher Basketball: 7 recognized tournament appearances. 1 recognized elite 8 run.
Vikings: 8 division titles. 10-17 playoff record. 0-4 in conference championship games.
Timberwolves: 1 Divison title. Advanced past first round of playoffs once. No championships.
Wild: 5 playoff appearances. No Stanley Cup appearances. (I'll admit they are too young to judge at this point).
Twins: 2 World Championships. 8 Division Titles. 2-0 in World Series. 2-0 in ALCS.

I really can't get over the 3 bad seasons quote on the Gopher message board. It's truly priceless. They could lose 100 games a year until 2030 and they'd still have a better last 50 years than the Gophers in both Football and Basketball.

Feel free to disagree. The Twins moved into their new stadium and spent money for one year then started and continue to cut payroll...that is why they are losing. The Gophers are doubling down on their new stadium with an almost as large facility improvement project and have increased investment every year. So yeah, I have no problem looking at the last few years of new stadium time and saying the Gophers are at least trying to win while the Twins aren't doing anything.
 

Feel free to disagree. The Twins moved into their new stadium and spent money for one year then started and continue to cut payroll...that is why they are losing. The Gophers are doubling down on their new stadium with an almost as large facility improvement project and have increased investment every year. So yeah, I have no problem looking at the last few years of new stadium time and saying the Gophers are at least trying to win while the Twins aren't doing anything.

Whatever you say. If you don't follow the team it might be easy to say that. Any fans of the team that look beyond the 24 man roster know that they are doing a lot, and they also know that top dollar free agents rarely live up to their contracts in baseball. It would be stupid to spend money trying to piece together a team with free agents right now. It almost always is unless you can afford a 200 million dollar payroll. You go the free agent route when you have the base of your team built from the farm system and you need a free agent or two to put you over the top. It's how the Twins were successful from 2000-2010 until Bill Smith traded away all of our prospects and tried to build a team with guys we didn't develop.

But this is a discussion for another time. I just couldn't let that original quote go unnoticed. It was too good.
 

I will definitely lose my tickets as prices nearly triple - and, who knows, they probably will go up after that. Teague and Kaler have absolutely no concern about their most loyal fans. They could have raised prices gently over a decade or more, perhaps 10 to 30% here and there, but they went for the jugular.
 

Has anyone heard officially if they will reseat people or will people renewing only get selections based on current seat openings?
 

Whatever you say. If you don't follow the team it might be easy to say that. Any fans of the team that look beyond the 24 man roster know that they are doing a lot, and they also know that top dollar free agents rarely live up to their contracts in baseball. It would be stupid to spend money trying to piece together a team with free agents right now. It almost always is unless you can afford a 200 million dollar payroll. You go the free agent route when you have the base of your team built from the farm system and you need a free agent or two to put you over the top. It's how the Twins were successful from 2000-2010 until Bill Smith traded away all of our prospects and tried to build a team with guys we didn't develop.

But this is a discussion for another time. I just couldn't let that original quote go unnoticed. It was too good.

Yeah, we didn't let any of our players go through free agency only to have them be extremely successful (how many can you name from the past 4 years?). We can talk about free agent signings, but if the Twins would have invested in the players they did develop and keep some of them they wouldn't have sucked nearly as bad over the last few years. Lots of ways to play it cheap. Morneau won a batting title last year, Hunter would have been the best player on out team the last few years but he wasn't on our team because the didn't resign him. But that is a discussion for another time...but lets not pretend that if the Twins would have maintained their payroll level from the first year at TCF into the subsequent years and retained some of their own players that they wouldn't be performing significantly better.

Lets see the numbers: Payroll by years

2010 - $97 Mil
2011 - $112 mil
2013 - $94 Mil
2013 - $75 Mil
2014 - $85 Mil

Pohlads are among the wealthiest owners in baseball
 

Yeah, we didn't let any of our players go through free agency only to have them be extremely successful (how many can you name from the past 4 years?). We can talk about free agent signings, but if the Twins would have invested in the players they did develop and keep some of them they wouldn't have sucked nearly as bad over the last few years. Lots of ways to play it cheap. Morneau won a batting title last year, Hunter would have been the best player on out team the last few years but he wasn't on our team because the didn't resign him. But that is a discussion for another time...but lets not pretend that if the Twins would have maintained their payroll level from the first year at TCF into the subsequent years and retained some of their own players that they wouldn't be performing significantly better.

All I hear is nitpicking. Hate em when they spend on Mauer and hate em when they let Torii and Morneau go. How'd that Santana contract work out? 140 mil for 3 productive years? We totally should have jumped on that. You can't honestly tell me you would have held on to Liriano and Morneau. They found success in a new organization. It happens.

I won't say mistakes have not been made. I would argue most of them have been in the trade market and not the free agent market. The Garza/Delmon Young trade being one of the most obvious. And I would place the majority of that blame squarely on Bill Smith.

We lost 99 games in 2011 with a high payroll when our farm system was essentially bone dry. We've continued to lose because of our farm system, and spending an extra 20 million on free agents isn't going to make them contenders. There is no reason to spend an extra 20 million in free agency to go from 95 losses to 88 losses.

Funny how you're probably the most patient guy when it comes to Gopher success, but the Twins have a string of bad years because Bill Smith traded all the young talent and all hell breaks lose because payroll payroll payroll.

But hey, the Gophers care about their fans more than the Twins so that's great news! They certainly care about the wrestling and baseball fans, I'll give you that.
 

I'm now contemplating how a baseball field would lay out at TCF. Kind of like when the Dodgers played in the LA Coliseum.
 

Has anyone heard officially if they will reseat people or will people renewing only get selections based on current seat openings?

if you decline your zone 1....you will be allowed to purchase open seats else where. you will not be allowed to decline zone 1 and opt for zone 2 that are currently held by owners.
 

All I hear is nitpicking. Hate em when they spend on Mauer and hate em when they let Torii and Morneau go. How'd that Santana contract work out? 140 mil for 3 productive years? We totally should have jumped on that. You can't honestly tell me you would have held on to Liriano and Morneau. They found success in a new organization. It happens.

I won't say mistakes have not been made. I would argue most of them have been in the trade market and not the free agent market. The Garza/Delmon Young trade being one of the most obvious. And I would place the majority of that blame squarely on Bill Smith.

We lost 99 games in 2011 with a high payroll when our farm system was essentially bone dry. We've continued to lose because of our farm system, and spending an extra 20 million on free agents isn't going to make them contenders. There is no reason to spend an extra 20 million in free agency to go from 95 losses to 88 losses.

Funny how you're probably the most patient guy when it comes to Gopher success, but the Twins have a string of bad years because Bill Smith traded all the young talent and all hell breaks lose because payroll payroll payroll.

But hey, the Gophers care about their fans more than the Twins so that's great news! They certainly care about the wrestling and baseball fans, I'll give you that.

You keep putting words in my mouth and jumping to major conclusions about my thoughts and opinions. I certainly am not patient when it comes to the Gophers and I have the many many many emails I have sent over the years that show my displeasure. But I'm not talking about the past 50 years....I was talking about the past 5...since the Twins and Gophers got new stadiums and how the Twins have cut back on spending, investing and payroll and how the Gophers have continued to move towards improvement, taking chances to win and pushing the envelope. You and I can disagree whole heartedly and it don't matter a lick...but don't pretend for a moment that the Twins have done everything they could to put a winning team on the field over the past 5 years because they haven't...and it wouldn't have required a $200 million payroll as you mentioned. You blame Bill Smith which I don't argue with you on that point, I just think many of his bad decisions were more payroll driven and less Bill is an idiot. The U leadership is making moves that offer big rewards and come with big risks...the Twins are playing it safe and cheap. Not talking about the last 60 years, just the last 5.
 




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