Fire Tubby!

After the starting 5 there is nothing, that is my point. It has to do with Tubby's terrible recruiting. There is maybe 3 BT caliber players on the bench.

You complain about Tubby's recruiting but then you predict that Andre Hollins is going pro after this year. If this happens, Three of the five starting Gophers will most likely be drafted in the NBA. Terrible recruiting?? Got it..
 

Does anyone know the Gopher's average end-of-season RPI over the last 5 years? I'd like to know the outcome of this season ahead of time.

↑Much like ZTA, doesn't understand the difference between possibilities and expectations. Is it possible for the Gophers to go to the Final Four this season? Yes - a higher possibility than usual. Do I expect it? No. The Gophers' fortunes this year will affect my expectations for next season, and next season's results will affect the expectations for 2014-15, and so on. Again, this isn't really rocket science, and only seems to be controversial here, where some are willfully ignorant to the school's near-complete lack of success in basketball. Tubby Smith is a better than average coach (much better than average), but he isn't God.
 

Not a fan of it either. I think you can still play a bunch of guys and get rest for the starters without doing the mass substitution. I'd personally like to see at least two of the five starters on the floor at all times.

To me, this is the one legitimate gripe against Tubby. The line changes are stupid and have no basis in sound basketball strategy. I like that he's seemingly doing it less and less as we get into the teeth of the schedule, but I can't back that with empirical evidence.
 

↑Much like ZTA, doesn't understand the difference between possibilities and expectations. Is it possible for the Gophers to go to the Final Four this season? Yes - a higher possibility than usual. Do I expect it? No. The Gophers' fortunes this year will affect my expectations for next season, and next season's results will affect the expectations for 2014-15, and so on. Again, this isn't really rocket science, and only seems to be controversial here, where some are willfully ignorant to the school's near-complete lack of success in basketball. Tubby Smith is a better than average coach (much better than average), but he isn't God.

All I'm saying is a lack of success in past years shouldn't determine your expectations for a seperate season with a different roster. This year's team should determine expectations for this season and this season only. Next year's team should determine expectations for next season and next season only. If you have a great season and lose key players, you should have lower expectations next season. If you have a poor season, but add a lot of talent that you didn't have the year before, you should have higher expectations than the previous season. Doesn't that make the most sense?
 

↑Much like ZTA, doesn't understand the difference between possibilities and expectations. Is it possible for the Gophers to go to the Final Four this season? Yes - a higher possibility than usual. Do I expect it? No. The Gophers' fortunes this year will affect my expectations for next season, and next season's results will affect the expectations for 2014-15, and so on. Again, this isn't really rocket science, and only seems to be controversial here, where some are willfully ignorant to the school's near-complete lack of success in basketball. Tubby Smith is a better than average coach (much better than average), but he isn't God.

So your expectations will rise to a higher level when we graduate mbakwe and Rodney?
 


All I'm saying is a lack of success in past years shouldn't determine your expectations for a seperate season with a different roster. This year's team should determine expectations for this season and this season only. Next year's team should determine expectations for next season and next season only. If you have a great season and lose key players, you should have lower expectations next season. If you have a poor season, but add a lot of talent that you didn't have the year before, you should have higher expectations than the previous season. Doesn't that make the most sense?

How did you determine that those were key players? How did you determine that you're adding a lot of talent? One word: history. Those players didn't come packaged and shipped to you in a box. They have a history. Most likely, they have a history with the current school and the current coach. Based on those parameters alone (the history of the players, here at Minnesota, under Tubby Smith), predicting a second-round loss is wildly optimistic, given that most of the players on the roster haven't even played in the Tournament. And yet, here in Bizarro World, holding that up as an expectation is seen as being unsupportive of the team. As I've stated previously, my methodology is pretty clear. An average Minnesota squad (including the majority of the current roster) would not make the Tournament. An average Tubby Smith-coached squad would make the Sweet 16 or thereabouts. Having an expectation of making the second round seems to be a pretty good compromise between those two. You may not realize it, but as I've said, the only thing you can base expectations on is history. There's literally nothing else you can base it on.
 

So your expectations will rise to a higher level when we graduate mbakwe and Rodney?

We'll see how they finish this year. The season's not done yet. We haven't won anything. Going deep into the Tournament would help the players coming back next year. Those aren't the only players on our roster.
 

We'll see how they finish this year. The season's not done yet. We haven't won anything. Going deep into the Tournament would help the players coming back next year. Those aren't the only players on our roster.

Hypothetically, if we go to the Final Four and lose in a close game, what will your expectations be for next season after losing Mbakwe and Rodney?
 

. ... a lack of success in past years shouldn't determine your expectations for a separate season with a different roster. ... If you have a great season and lose key players, you should have lower expectations next season. If you have a poor season, but add a lot of talent that you didn't have the year before, you should have higher expectations than the previous season.

Agree.

Assuming no unexpected departures of key players, I expect the Gophers to be in the mix for the NCAA Tournament in 2013-14, but I won't expect them to be better than (it appears we'll be) this season. But that's why we play out every season.

To wit, I didn't expect the Gophers to reach the Final Four in 1997-98 (the year after their Final Four season), but I expected them to be pretty darn good with the nucleus they had back. However, then Courtney James got involved with a stripper and a phonebook ("This is Shaq, I'll call you back"), and Charles Thomas did whatever he did to get booted from the U, and my expectations for that squad went way down. Nevertheless, Slammin' Sammy, Eric Harris, Q, and Kevin Clark still turned that into a feel-good late-season Big Ten run & NIT championship.
 



We will still have a very good back court next year, maybe the best in the conference, as upperclassman Elliott and Oto should serviceable players, if Buggs bulks up and Mo slims down they can be decent players too, factor in Foster and hopefully Schilling and will be a good team, probably not as good as this year, but certainly one that can get to the tournament and win a game or two. In march elite guard play can take you a long ways, and we will definently have it.
 

Great defensive game plan by the coaches and execution by the players last night, they just switched off on the perimeter and didn't really care about pick and role up the middle that much, Illinois is so focused on dribble penetration or three point shooting they never looked to feed the middle after a screen, pretty much shut down the three point shooting of Illinois.

Offense is much better this year, still don't like it, to much standng around, without Andre Hollins ability to penetrate they get lost at times, who knows I might be a believer by the end of the year.
 

Agree.

Assuming no unexpected departures of key players, I expect the Gophers to be in the mix for the NCAA Tournament in 2013-14, but I don't expect them to be as good as it appears we are going to be this season. But that's why we play out every season.

To wit, I didn't expect the Gophers to reach the Final Four in 1997-98 (the year after their Final Four season), but I expected them to be pretty darn good with the nucleus they had back. However, then Courtney James got involved with a stripper and a phonebook ("This is Shaq, I'll call you back"), and Charles Thomas did whatever he did to get booted from the U, and my expectations for that squad went way down.

Thank you. Was hoping I wasn't the one who felt that way.
 

Hypothetically, if we go to the Final Four and lose in a close game, what will your expectations be for next season after losing Mbakwe and Rodney?

Sweet 16. Unless you're a blueblood, having any expectations higher than Sweet 16 is a fool's errand in my opinion. Of course, unlike many here, I would rather underexpect and be pleasantly surprised than overexpect and be left wanting a comfortable majority of the time.
 



I thought Charles Thomas was a senior on the final four team, or em I thinking of Big John?
 


Sweet 16. Unless you're a blueblood, having any expectations higher than Sweet 16 is a fool's errand in my opinion. Of course, unlike many here, I would rather underexpect and be pleasantly surprised than overexpect and be left wanting a comfortable majority of the time.

So does losing Mbakwe and Rodney not really do much for your expectations for next season? Just how we finish the season?
 

So does losing Mbakwe and Rodney not really do much for your expectations for next season? Just how we finish the season?

Good point - I would actually probably expect an Elite 8 appearance if Mbakwe and Rodney were back next year, but not many teams return a 7th-year senior and 5th-year senior who are both also two of the best players in school history.
 

Good point - I would actually probably expect an Elite 8 appearance if Mbakwe and Rodney were back next year, but not many teams return a 7th-year senior and 5th-year senior who are both also two of the best players in school history.

What point? I didn't make a point. I was asking a question. I was just wondering if the shuffling of players affects your expectations at all or if you just base them solely on how we finish the previous season without paying attention to the roster. Looks like you pay attention to the roster a little bit.
 

You complain about Tubby's recruiting but then you predict that Andre Hollins is going pro after this year. If this happens, Three of the five starting Gophers will most likely be drafted in the NBA. Terrible recruiting?? Got it..

I thought the same thing. Some awesome logic dude is displaying here.
 



Bwhahahha....You run out of things to attack so you resort to my number of posts? Good one, but its called "I have a life" Mr. 8008 posts. Judging from the other posts in this thread i guess nobody has any sense but you. Keep on trying dude!

Yes, I'm sure they're being 100% honest and forthright in their answers. Don't be willfully stupid. If they said they cared a lot about the history of the school, that would be a de facto elimination of Minnesota. For whatever reasons they may have, they want to continue the facade that they are seriously considering Minnesota. Saying "history of the school is extremely important to me" crumbles that facade immediately. I also never said that there aren't other reasons - there are a multitude, including the ones you've named. You are lying to yourself if you think history of the programs isn't at or near the top of the list, for them and every other recruit in the country. Players don't go to Duke and Kentucky because Durham and Lexington are great places to live, and Krzyzewski and Calipari are really swell guys. They go there because the programs and the coaches win. That is called "history".



No thanks, Mr. 59 Posts. I'm entitled to my opinion, especially when the validity and truth of my opinion is obvious to anyone with any sense at all.
 

I'd be floored if Dre left for the NBA after this year.

Austin leaving would be surprising but not ridiculous if the team had a deep NCAA run and his stock was high.

Next years team will only be limited by how good our new frontcourt is. EE, Mo, and Buggs wouldn't inspire a lot of confidence as starting F/Cs now, but they could emerge next season.

This time last year I was wondering if Joe Coleman would ever be able to make a jump shot outside 5 feet. If any of our bigs make the kind of progression that he did last offseason we could be damn good again.
 

↑Much like ZTA, doesn't understand the difference between possibilities and expectations. Is it possible for the Gophers to go to the Final Four this season? Yes - a higher possibility than usual. Do I expect it? No. The Gophers' fortunes this year will affect my expectations for next season, and next season's results will affect the expectations for 2014-15, and so on. Again, this isn't really rocket science, and only seems to be controversial here, where some are willfully ignorant to the school's near-complete lack of success in basketball. Tubby Smith is a better than average coach (much better than average), but he isn't God.

The only thing that matters is what happens on the court - results. History does not dictate what this team will do. Fact.

FAct is, tubby's results, until this season (5 years), have been *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ty.

Possible to win the ncaa title? This year? Dam straight. Unlike you, I could see the writing on the wall. This is a good team, with upper classmen all over. Experience all over.

Expectations? My expectations for this team, this year - I know, I should look at history to determine this one but I just cant do it - sky is the limit. I said anything less than 13 wins in the conf and a deep run in the ncaa would be underwhelming for this team, this year.

Tough for you to accept, perhaps, but true nonetheless.
 

In the 3 B1G games the team has played, the gophers have won the second half score by 12 vs mich st. 15 vs NW, and 13 @ILL, thats average margin of 13.3 just in the second half alone. Thats' all to do with halftime adjustments Tubby makes, for anyone to say he can't coach is only out to get him. On top of that, he is very good at finding hidden talent and getting full potential of players when they are here. I mean just look at the Hollins. there is no reason for minnesota have ended up with those kids, they are from Tennessee and have no connection to the state, but they were overlooked by everyone, yet Tubby spotted the talent, and no one gives him enough credit for that. Its not easy for Minnesota to get top recruits out of state, so the key ia finding under the rader guys until we are able to win consistently and out of state recruits take note(if he can keep next few class from minnesota to stay, it shouldn't take long), and Tubby has been pretty good at that, and so has kept the top talent in state to stay home. I couldn't be happier to have Tubby as the coach here, been saying that since he has been here, because if anyone were to actually follow the team they would know he has done a good job, but just has been getting extremely unlucky with things out of his control. So far he his showing us how well his team can be when off the court issues don't get in the way.
 

In the 3 B1G games the team has played, the gophers have won the second half score by 12 vs mich st. 15 vs NW, and 13 @ILL, thats average margin of 13.3 just in the second half alone. Thats' all to do with halftime adjustments Tubby makes, for anyone to say he can't coach is only out to get him. On top of that, he is very good at finding hidden talent and getting full potential of players when they are here. I mean just look at the Hollins. there is no reason for minnesota have ended up with those kids, they are from Tennessee and have no connection to the state, but they were overlooked by everyone, yet Tubby spotted the talent, and no one gives him enough credit for that. Its not easy for Minnesota to get top recruits out of state, so the key ia finding under the rader guys until we are able to win consistently and out of state recruits take note(if he can keep next few class from minnesota to stay, it shouldn't take long), and Tubby has been pretty good at that, and so has kept the top talent in state to stay home. I couldn't be happier to have Tubby as the coach here, been saying that since he has been here, because if anyone were to actually follow the team they would know he has done a good job, but just has been getting extremely unlucky with things out of his control. So far he his showing us how well his team can be when off the court issues don't get in the way.

So what do you believe the odds are that Tubby can land Tyus, Rashad and Reid?
 

I am too good of a mood to get in to a back and forth, so I will just post this and not respond. We're in year SIX of Tubby's tenure and this will be (barring a disaster) his FIRST Big Ten winning record. Tubby has also failed to win a game in the NCAA tournament so far during his tenure (again, this should end this season barring a disaster). If having one good season every SIX years is acceptable to you then your post makes some sort of sense. If you think Tubby was hired to put the record he had through his first five seasons, you are completely out of touch with reality. Dan Monson (yes, that Dan Monson) was 10-6 in the Big Ten in his sixth season and tied for 4th in the conference (was actually his second winning Big Ten season) and then proceeded to finish 10th the next season (and fired 7 games in to the following season).

I think most of the "fire Tubby" crowd wanted to see a real contender this year and so far Tubby has finally put that on the table and deserves credit for that. However, this type of team (so far) needs to become closer to the rule and not the exception.

I'd love to see a post like the original one in 2-3 years when the Gophers have had several good seasons and not just one excellent start in the Big Ten.
 

This dp guy is an idiot. Plain and simple. His way of determining future expectations are ridiculous. And the little things he says just expose his serious lack of knowledge, at least when it comes to Minnesota basketball.

According to him, this program has never done anything, ever. "near-complete lack of success" as he states it.
He claims that Mbakwe and Coleman are two of the best players ever in the history of Minnesota bb??

This guy seriously must be like 16 years old, with no ability or desire to read anything about the Gopher's bb history.

We aren't one of the Top ranked teams in the # of Consensus All-Americans we've had, and we aren't one of the Top ranked teams in the # of players we've put into the NBA, and we aren't one of the few schools who have 5 former players with over 10,000 pts in the NBA because of a "near-complete lack of success".

Minnesota has EORS rankings of #6, #7, #10, #11 and #13 in the country where we didn't get an invite to the Big Dance because we weren't the best team in the Big Ten. We also have 4 times that we did make it to the Sweet 16. We had one of our best seasons ever totally voided out because of, what I've heard, was nothing more than a player selling a couple of his complimentary tickets. Seems like a ridiculous punishment for the crime, but thats not my point, my point is we had a great season, and no one really knows about it. 1997 happened, despite people telling me it didn't. I understand why those years were voided, but its not altogether accurate either to act like they didn't happen, like great players didn't come here to play, and the perform well.

We also have 3 Natl Titles and several Big Ten Titles from back before the NCAA tournament. That is part of our history, too.

But injuries and other circumstances have seemed to plague Minnesota for decades now.


And the Gophers the last few years have suffered alot of misfortunes.

Buy, we are finally healthy, and experienced, and absolutely expectations should be adjusted and NOT dependent upon the past. Thats RIDICULOUS!!!!

I watched the 87 and 88 teams struggle, and saw them blossom right before my eyes in 89, and I knew they'd do better, ALOT better than the year before, and they did. Same with the 1997 team. I saw that coming from a mile away. I knew we'd have an incredible year as far back as early in 1996. And I saw this season coming, too. At the end of last season, I was telling everyone that if we got Mbakwe back, we'd be a Big Ten title contending team. I didn't see the Big Ten having so many good teams, which quelled my expectations, at least within the Big Ten, until I saw how we were playing.


Now as for history, sure, Tyus and Rashad and Reid look at that, and UK and Duke have that over us. But we have something they don't. Being near home. Academics wise, we are far superior to UK, and almost as good as Duke, if not better in many ways. But there is also the concept of CREATING HISTORY!!! Those homies may spurn programs with established histories, to build upon and create a new history here at UMn. Tubby has history, and now under favorable circumstances, he's got a real good team brewing here.

Well, I'm getting tired, not of talking about the Gophers, but because I feel like I'm talking to the wall. I'm guessing that you won't take anything that I've written under consideration?
 

So what do you believe the odds are that Tubby can land Tyus, Rashad and Reid?

I dont really think we have much of chance for Tyus and I think the ultimate reason will be his relationship with Okafor, but do think they have a good shot at vaughn and travis, I know thats the ultimate class, but the state has a lot of good players coming out the years after as well, I think the recruiting stretch from 2014-2016 will be pivotal for this program. If Tubby can get most of those guys and builds a solid team with them this program will be in great shape long term because they should be able to recruit better players out of state after have a few years of success.

btw, my opinion on our chances on getting Tyus and company or just based on what I read and nothing more, I have no inside info for anything.
 





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