Fire Ben Johnson

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formerlybis said:
This USC game is winnable, especially if their best player Desmond Claude can’t go, and then they’re favored against NW and PSU. That’s a nonmiraculous 7 wins and smack dab in the gray zone, and they might even win a game in the BTT against another lower third team.

You asked who other than Marcus would fall for this. Most people aren’t paying attention so Coyle can justify anything if there’s some inkling of outperforming expectations after 0-6.
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Attendance at the Barn is way down so people are clearly noticing. Still can't figure out why some are so convinced that Coyle is desperate for a reason to keep Ben as the coach. There is no way he is happy with how the past 4 years have gone.
 

formerlybis said:
This USC game is winnable, especially if their best player Desmond Claude can’t go, and then they’re favored against NW and PSU. That’s a nonmiraculous 7 wins and smack dab in the gray zone, and they might even win a game in the BTT against another lower third team.

You asked who other than Marcus would fall for this. Most people aren’t paying attention so Coyle can justify anything if there’s some inkling of outperforming expectations after 0-6.
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7 wins might be enough to justify doing nothing if that's what Coyle wants to do. But the entire team save one or two guys is leaving. Ben is not going to miraculously turn it around next year. They will probably be worse without Garcia, not better. If Coyle has an ounce of sense he knows there is absolutely no benefit to kicking the can and possibly a good deal of harm in the form of a couple thousand season tickets lost.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Attendance at the Barn is way down so people are clearly noticing. Still can't figure out why some are so convinced that Coyle is desperate for a reason to keep Ben as the coach. There is no way he is happy with how the past 4 years have gone.
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I think you know I'm in the camp who thinks CBJ isn't a good coach. I think he deserves to be gone. I'm just anticipating the counter-narrative, which isn't rationally unreasonable (despite it being incessantly espoused by a lunatic poster) - i.e., a lot of this isn't his fault. The team made strides record-wise in the latter half of the season. If this is what he can do with an econo-team, what might he be able to do with a bigger budget to afford better players?

As to Coyle, I just don't know. I think it's more likely he makes a move, but if there are pro-CBJ forces at work behind the scenes, they have a narrative available.
 

formerlybis said:
I think you know I'm in the camp who thinks CBJ isn't a good coach. I think he deserves to be gone. I'm just anticipating the counter-narrative, which isn't rationally unreasonable (despite it being incessantly espoused by a lunatic poster) - i.e., a lot of this isn't his fault. The team made strides record-wise in the latter half of the season. If this is what he can do with an econo-team, what might he be able to do with a bigger budget to afford better players?

As to Coyle, I just don't know. I think it's more likely he makes a move, but if there are pro-CBJ forces at work behind the scenes, they have a narrative available.
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This thinking might have merit except that, given more money, Coach Johnson still recruits a lower tier athlete than others in that same NIL slot. I attribute this to his personality and his coaching record that does not attract top tier talent.
So, keeping Coach Johnson will, after a track record of losing, not get this basketball program any entry to top tier talent.
 

kix4kix said:
This post is asinine and continues to highlight nonsensical idoicracy on this board, that when I mention there are Ben defenders time and time again, certain posters act slack jawed and ask for receipts.

PJ was a knockout hire by any metric, he has raised the floor from 5-6 wins to really 8 wins. That is impressive given that this is in the NIL era, the same era that certain delusional members on here say keep Ben from performing in a sport that requires far less recourses and successful recruiting "gets" to be relevant than Football requires.

Ben's issue isn't NIL, it's coaching. You would trust this group of coaches with a five star? I sure as hell wouldn't. Name one area that this team has improved on since he took the reigns? Name one player he made better? Patinos record left a lot to be desired but his teams were always entertaining to watch. I can't watch the boring product that currently takes the court every game. NO THANKS.

I would argue Payne actually regressed. The only recruit that improved imo was Christie, and color me skeptical that the one prospect with NBA pedigree got better because of Ben's coaching. No identity, protect the border? lol.... Defense? Laughable. This guy needs to go and every game we continue to charade is ridiculous.

NIL requires big money donors that care about the program. Unless you know of a family that cares about basketball that is extremely wealthy alumni? It aint walking through that door.

Nobody is asking for Kentucky level recruits. What we are asking is for our team to have a shot at a sweet 16 run, not unfeasible. We had it with Pitino, and we had it with Tubby.
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The one point I’ll differ with you is that Pitino’s teams were fun to watch. There isn’t much difference between the two.
 


CentralGopher said:
The one point I’ll differ with you is that Pitino’s teams were fun to watch. There isn’t much difference between the two.
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What Pitino team was fun to watch? His teams had no movement off ball. They ran a globetrotter weave and then tried to win in a one on one isolation. It was frustrating to watch. The difference was Pitino recruited better players than Johnson has recruited.
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
Right, Brewster had two 3-5 conference seasons that lead to middling bowl games. Pretty comparable to Ben's 9-11 conference record last season.

He also had a horrific 1-11 / 0-8 first season, and his 4th season was shaping up similarly before getting shit canned.

Never beat a rival, lost both bowl games, lost 55-0 to Iowa in the last game at the dome, got smoked by NDSU and USD, etc etc.

Both were really bad but let's not let recency bias cloud things. Brewster was arguably a bigger disaster than Ben, especially considering it occurred in what should've been a celebratory time for the program with the new stadium opening.
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Fair.

Brew was 6-21 in conference
Johnson is 19-52 in conference

So Ben has a better winning %. I did forget how bad Brew's first season was.

Regardless I think we can both agree they are bad, bad hires.
 

kix4kix said:
This post is asinine and continues to highlight nonsensical idoicracy on this board, that when I mention there are Ben defenders time and time again, certain posters act slack jawed and ask for receipts.

PJ was a knockout hire by any metric, he has raised the floor from 5-6 wins to really 8 wins. That is impressive given that this is in the NIL era, the same era that certain delusional members on here say keep Ben from performing in a sport that requires far less recourses and successful recruiting "gets" to be relevant than Football requires.

Ben's issue isn't NIL, it's coaching. You would trust this group of coaches with a five star? I sure as hell wouldn't. Name one area that this team has improved on since he took the reigns? Name one player he made better? Patinos record left a lot to be desired but his teams were always entertaining to watch. I can't watch the boring product that currently takes the court every game. NO THANKS.

I would argue Payne actually regressed. The only recruit that improved imo was Christie, and color me skeptical that the one prospect with NBA pedigree got better because of Ben's coaching. No identity, protect the border? lol.... Defense? Laughable. This guy needs to go and every game we continue to charade is ridiculous.

NIL requires big money donors that care about the program. Unless you know of a family that cares about basketball that is extremely wealthy alumni? It aint walking through that door.

Nobody is asking for Kentucky level recruits. What we are asking is for our team to have a shot at a sweet 16 run, not unfeasible. We had it with Pitino, and we had it with Tubby.
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First you questioned whether a "five star" player could be coached up by the Gopher staff? Then you say that the only thing close to that kind of talent we had improved?

Then you question Paynes development course, which I disagree with, as apparently did Texas A&M. Either that or they forked over a reported $500k for little value.

Then you contend an NIL windfall is not forthcoming here, yet expect some miracle worker to come here and recruit talent to a sweet 16 level? Someone like Pitino or Tubby? Did Tubby or Pitino ever have to deal with the reality of NIL while here?

Asinine? Or self contradictory? I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder?
 

formerlybis said:
I think you know I'm in the camp who thinks CBJ isn't a good coach. I think he deserves to be gone. I'm just anticipating the counter-narrative, which isn't rationally unreasonable (despite it being incessantly espoused by a lunatic poster) - i.e., a lot of this isn't his fault. The team made strides record-wise in the latter half of the season. If this is what he can do with an econo-team, what might he be able to do with a bigger budget to afford better players?

As to Coyle, I just don't know. I think it's more likely he makes a move, but if there are pro-CBJ forces at work behind the scenes, they have a narrative available.
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Econo team...he has as much money as teams that outperform him annually. You are reaching here.

These conspiracy theories are just another way for people to dog on Coyle.
 



FinnGopher said:
What Pitino team was fun to watch? His teams had no movement off ball. They ran a globetrotter weave and then tried to win in a one on one isolation. It was frustrating to watch. The difference was Pitino recruited better players than Johnson has recruited.
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Except for Jelly Fam, who wasn't any good, Johnson recruited most of Pitino's decent players. I used to fall asleep watching that weave 35 feet from the basket.

Pitino's having success in New Mexico because he's got money to buy decent players.
 

FTR, I'm not in favor of keeping Johnson. The program is too polluted at this point. I'm also not in favor of keeping Coyle. Like Maturi, he's better than terrible at his job and he's earnestly likable. That's good enough for Minnesota. It shouldn't be.
 

formerlybis said:
I think you know I'm in the camp who thinks CBJ isn't a good coach. I think he deserves to be gone. I'm just anticipating the counter-narrative, which isn't rationally unreasonable (despite it being incessantly espoused by a lunatic poster) - i.e., a lot of this isn't his fault. The team made strides record-wise in the latter half of the season. If this is what he can do with an econo-team, what might he be able to do with a bigger budget to afford better players?

As to Coyle, I just don't know. I think it's more likely he makes a move, but if there are pro-CBJ forces at work behind the scenes, they have a narrative available.
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What might he do with better players is such a lazy excuse. Part of the reason they have no $$ is that he's a 19-54. He's also a terrible fundraiser and public speaker. Who's donating to that? The $$ situation is not going to change bringing him back.
 

Dave H said:
Econo team...he has as much money as teams that outperform him annually. You are reaching here.

These conspiracy theories are just another way for people to dog on Coyle.
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I still have yet to hear a compeling argument for why Coyle would want to keep Johnson for year 5.

As much as some don't like it, there was a case to be made for year 4 at the end of year 3. It would take a ridiculous finish to the season for that to be the case after year 4.

4 years of sub .500 conference records, no NCAA tournament appearances, horrible attendance, and another full roster rebuild coming.....why would the AD want to run that back again? Especially when you factor in that the buyout is low and you could bring a new coach in with essentially a clean slate to work with.

I get that imaginations run wild waiting for the coaching change we know is almost certainly coming at the end of the year, but people need to stop torturing themselves coming up with all the reasons they are going to be disappointed before they even happen.
 



jamiche said:
Except for Jelly Fam, who wasn't any good, Johnson recruited most of Pitino's decent players. I used to fall asleep watching that weave 35 feet from the basket.

Pitino's having success in New Mexico because he's got money to buy decent players.
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I am sorry but this is satire right? Pitino isn't more successful at New Mexico because they have a financial windfall...he is more successful because he isn't playing against Big Ten talent every night. This is the level he should be coaching at. When he inevitably leaves for a big name job he will suck again no matter how much money the program has because the dude stinks at in game decision making.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I get that imaginations run wild waiting for the coaching change we know is almost certainly coming at the end of the year, but people need to stop torturing themselves coming up with all the reasons they are going to be disappointed before they even happen.
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Funny you say this - it's a pretty good description of how my professional mind works. It's sort of my job IRL to identify vulnerabilities and have a plan for avoiding bad or worst-case scenarios. If you wait for them to happen, it's too late.
 

formerlybis said:
Funny you say this - it's a pretty good description of how my professional mind works. It's sort of my job IRL to identify vulnerabilities and have a plan for avoiding bad or worst-case scenarios. If you wait for them to happen, it's too late.
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The motto of Gopher Athletics is "Hey, it could be worse..."
 

FinnGopher said:
What Pitino team was fun to watch? His teams had no movement off ball. They ran a globetrotter weave and then tried to win in a one on one isolation. It was frustrating to watch. The difference was Pitino recruited better players than Johnson has recruited.
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The 2018-19 team was fun to watch. Amir slashing and scoring, Murph rebounding everything, Nate at the point, Lynch and Oturu protecting the rim, Gabe drilling 3s. Were they great? Nah, but they won 22 games, went to the tournament and beat Louisville
 

WindyCityGopher said:
The 2018-19 team was fun to watch. Amir slashing and scoring, Murph rebounding everything, Nate at the point, Lynch and Oturu protecting the rim, Gabe drilling 3s. Were they great? Nah, but they won 22 games, went to the tournament and beat Louisville
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You're mixing up the 17 and 19 teams.

17 team was much better but yea the 19 team beat Louisville and also had moments where they were super fun to watch.
 
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FinnGopher said:
What Pitino team was fun to watch? His teams had no movement off ball. They ran a globetrotter weave and then tried to win in a one on one isolation. It was frustrating to watch. The difference was Pitino recruited better players than Johnson has recruited.
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That’s exactly what my point was. Neither are real fun to watch.
 

CentralGopher said:
That’s exactly what my point was. Neither are real fun to watch.
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Beating Wisconsin in 2014 with Big Mo scoring hoop after hoop off the pick & role as Bo Ryan watched helplessly was great fun…

Richard was to basketball as Brad Buetow was to hockey: “let the kids play…”—not a recipe for success in the Big Ten or NCAA tourney hockey.


CentralGopher said:
That’s exactly what my point was. Neither are real fun to watch.
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Gopheritnow said:
First you questioned whether a "five star" player could be coached up by the Gopher staff? Then you say that the only thing close to that kind of talent we had improved?

Then you question Paynes development course, which I disagree with, as apparently did Texas A&M. Either that or they forked over a reported $500k for little value.

Then you contend an NIL windfall is not forthcoming here, yet expect some miracle worker to come here and recruit talent to a sweet 16 level? Someone like Pitino or Tubby? Did Tubby or Pitino ever have to deal with the reality of NIL while here?

Asinine? Or self contradictory? I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder?
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Again, he doesn't get credit for cultivating Christie, especially in context with the rest of the kids who haver regressed.....

Payne flashed NBA potential his freshman year, biggest jump is in year 2. He regressed over every metric, including the eye test. His payment from Texas A&M (which ironically was met with skepticism on here when I and only a very few others said at the time what he would be paid on open market close to if not more than that) is irrelevant.

You mentioned NIL, I did not.

My point is we are operating in the NIL atmosphere now. Every program that is attracting 5 star recruits has one mega donor. We do not. Therefore we have to think outside of the box. There are lots of programs succeeding with more limited budgets than we have.
 

kix4kix said:
Again, he doesn't get credit for cultivating Christie, especially in context with the rest of the kids who haver regressed.....

Payne flashed NBA potential his freshman year, biggest jump is in year 2. He regressed over every metric, including the eye test. His payment from Texas A&M (which ironically was met with skepticism on here when I and only a very few others said at the time what he would be paid on open market close to if not more than that) is irrelevant.

You mentioned NIL, I did not.

My point is we are operating in the NIL atmosphere now. Every program that is attracting 5 star recruits has one mega donor. We do not. Therefore we have to think outside of the box. There are lots of programs succeeding with more limited budgets than we have.
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Glen Taylor has some cash to spend...
 



FinnGopher said:
What Pitino team was fun to watch? His teams had no movement off ball. They ran a globetrotter weave and then tried to win in a one on one isolation. It was frustrating to watch. The difference was Pitino recruited better players than Johnson has recruited.
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Very well said, was frustrating to watch. I wonder if he still does the same thing in NM
 

Dave H said:
I am sorry but this is satire right? Pitino isn't more successful at New Mexico because they have a financial windfall...he is more successful because he isn't playing against Big Ten talent every night. This is the level he should be coaching at. When he inevitably leaves for a big name job he will suck again no matter how much money the program has because the dude stinks at in game decision making.
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He's not a great coach and it doesn't matter about his next job. He's not playing against B1G competition. In this job he has more money to spend than his competitors. In the next job if he has a financial advantage, he'll look good.

When he was here running the weave....those were the old rules.
 

jamiche said:
He's not a great coach and it doesn't matter about his next job. He's not playing against B1G competition. In this job he has more money to spend than his competitors. In the next job if he has a financial advantage, he'll look good.

When he was here running the weave....those were the old rules.
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Since it's multiple times I've seen this, may as well ask for some kind of facts to back it up. I think NM's collective has improved a lot, but I'd be surprised if it exceeds Boise State, San Diego State, maybe even Colorado State and UNLV. I'm not this big Pitino fan, but he lost a big time talent to the portal, and I guess "bought" capable replacements and has them playing well enough to win against some tough teams including San Diego State.
 

formerlybis said:
I think you know I'm in the camp who thinks CBJ isn't a good coach. I think he deserves to be gone. I'm just anticipating the counter-narrative, which isn't rationally unreasonable (despite it being incessantly espoused by a lunatic poster) - i.e., a lot of this isn't his fault. The team made strides record-wise in the latter half of the season. If this is what he can do with an econo-team, what might he be able to do with a bigger budget to afford better players?

As to Coyle, I just don't know. I think it's more likely he makes a move, but if there are pro-CBJ forces at work behind the scenes, they have a narrative available.
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Even if that narrative is to be accepted as 100% true(not yours, Easy There Idiots) than there would be no reason to even pay as much for a coach as we do Ben. If it is impossible to succeed without big NIL money than hire me, I'll do it for 300k and we can use the difference on the football team.
 

WoodburyTim said:
Even if that narrative is to be accepted as 100% true(not yours, Easy There Idiots) than there would be no reason to even pay as much for a coach as we do Ben. If it is impossible to succeed without big NIL money than hire me, I'll do it for 300k and we can use the difference on the football team.
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I'll do it for $285K and a promise to get ejected at least twice during the season.
 

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