Enjoying Gopher Basketball

Donate To GopherHole
Johnnyboy18 said:
I mean in the current situation I think finishing with less than 8 wins in the B1G would be trending down and a move would be justified considering the start.
Click to expand...
I agree.

I said a few weeks ago, if he wins 7 games, he's safe.
 


Bad Gopher said:
There's no question Brian Coyle has told him. When he fired Whalen, he spoke about aspiring to a "championship level" of basketball that she hadn't attained. Obviously, this men's thing is nowhere near a championship level of anything. A road win against the decimated Penn State program is a good day and better than losing, but it's still a ways away from the level the program was at under the previous coach who was fired for not doing well enough.
Click to expand...
So I should not like the team or should like the team? I am all confused now...
 

stocker08 said:
Yes it was. The roster was empty. Mashburn was going to follow Pitino, Robbins was going to follow his uncle, and Carr was probably going to leave even if Pitino had been retained.

You can't possibly argue that the roster was in a good place when Johnson took over. Maybe he manages to hold onto Gabe? Gach? What young talent outside of Mashburn (who wasn't staying) was remaining to build around?
Click to expand...
Obviously, when you're unsuccessful at retaining players, you need to recruit new players to replace them. Other new coaches around the country did an order-of-magnitude better job of this than Johnson did. Again, stop being intellectually dishonest by implying that recruiting and roster composition aren't a fundamental measure of performance in this job. And he performed exceedingly poorly in this respect, essentially cratering the program from the get-go.
 



Bad Gopher said:
Obviously, when you're unsuccessful at retaining players, you need to recruit new players to replace them. Other new coaches around the country did an order-of-magnitude better job of this than Johnson did. Again, stop being intellectually dishonest by implying that recruiting and roster composition aren't a fundamental measure of performance in this job. And he performed exceedingly poorly in this respect, essentially cratering the program from the get-go.
Click to expand...
This is where the complete lack of any HC experience absolutely killed him. The landscape required someone who had managed a roster before at a high level. They needed to draw on all their past experiences to navigate this new world effectively. With the way the portal was shaping up and NIL, leadership had to have known it was going to be chaotic. Chaos and inexperience make really bad bed fellows. Unfortunately, we've seen the results.

This team is better and is more fun to watch. Will it be enough? We'll know for sure in about 6 weeks.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Obviously, when you're unsuccessful at retaining players, you need to recruit new players to replace them. Other new coaches around the country did an order-of-magnitude better job of this than Johnson did. Again, stop being intellectually dishonest by implying that recruiting and roster composition aren't a fundamental measure of performance in this job. And he performed exceedingly poorly in this respect, essentially cratering the program from the get-go.
Click to expand...

I never said that recruiting and roster composition were not a part of the job. I think it's "intellectually dishonest" to look at the roster that Pitino had the final year and assume the best players were coming back.....when all evidence points to Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were gone regardless. He inherited a total mess.....and it's only revisionist history to say otherwise.
 

stocker08 said:
I never said that recruiting and roster composition were not a part of the job. I think it's "intellectually dishonest" to look at the roster that Pitino had the final year and assume the best players were coming back.....when all evidence points to Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were gone regardless. He inherited a total mess.....and it's only revisionist history to say otherwise.
Click to expand...
That's life in the big city. Every time I'm the least bit tempted to think of Ben as a victim, I remind myself that his base salary is fifteen times mine. He ain't no goddamn victim.
 

Bad Gopher said:
That's life in the big city. Every time I'm the least bit tempted to think of Ben as a victim, I remind myself that his base salary is fifteen times mine. He ain't no goddamn victim.
Click to expand...

Never suggested that he was a victim. I've only said that Johnson shouldn't be blamed for the exodus of Pitino's last team. It's dishonest to suggest that he should have been expected to keep the best players off that team.
 



stocker08 said:
Never suggested that he was a victim. I've only said that Johnson shouldn't be blamed for the exodus of Pitino's last team. It's dishonest to suggest that he should have been expected to keep the best players off that team.
Click to expand...
My expectation was that the program doesn't get cratered back to the stone age, resembling a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and suffer the worst two-plus-year stretch in program history. My expectation was not met. That is in the hands of the head coach. What happened to Gopher basketball does not happen in the hands of a competent man who is deserving of this responsibility. This is a bottom line business.
 

Bad Gopher said:
My expectation was that the program doesn't get cratered back to the stone age, resembling a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and suffer the worst two-plus-year stretch in program history. My expectation was not met. That is in the hands of the head coach. What happened to Gopher basketball does not happen in the hands of a competent man who is deserving of this responsibility. This is a bottom line business.
Click to expand...
If I've said it once, I've said a million times...stop exaggerating.
 

Bad Gopher said:
My expectation was that the program doesn't get cratered back to the stone age, resembling a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and suffer the worst two-plus-year stretch in program history. My expectation was not met. That is in the hands of the head coach. What happened to Gopher basketball does not happen in the hands of a competent man who is deserving of this responsibility. This is a bottom line business.
Click to expand...

Well there are no assurances that when a coach is fired, that any of the players on the team will return. It's impossible to predict. My opinion is that it's entirely unfair to blame Johnson for what he was working with in year one. Again....I don't think Carr was returning regardless of whether Pitino was fired or not. Mashburn signed with the Gophers because of Pitino....and followed him to NM. Don't think there was any chance of him staying. I personally don't think Johnson should have kept Robbins's uncle on the staff just so he stuck around. Maybe you think he should have hired someone just to keep a single player.....but I don't.

Saying that these players leaving proves incompetence only proves that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
 




stocker08 said:
Well there are no assurances that when a coach is fired, that any of the players on the team will return. It's impossible to predict. My opinion is that it's entirely unfair to blame Johnson for what he was working with in year one. Again....I don't think Carr was returning regardless of whether Pitino was fired or not. Mashburn signed with the Gophers because of Pitino....and followed him to NM. Don't think there was any chance of him staying. I personally don't think Johnson should have kept Robbins's uncle on the staff just so he stuck around. Maybe you think he should have hired someone just to keep a single player.....but I don't.

Saying that these players leaving proves incompetence only proves that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Click to expand...
Let me put it this way: if I took that job, I would consider it my responsibility whatever happens under my watch. That's what I take on when I accept that salary and responsibility...and 1,500% raise from what I make now.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Are you saying that this hasn't been the worst two-plus-year stretch in program history? Big if true. By what measure?
Click to expand...
The best coach in program history (who cheated just like every successful coach in program history) won the same amount of games albeit with 4 less games. But I'm sure you and others will pretend there's a difference between less than 2% difference.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Every little engine that could is likable, especially after they've upset the worst team in the league. The objective is to be something better than the little engine that could.
Click to expand...
Wrong. The objective was to win the last game. The new objective is to win the next game.
 

Anyone who's enjoying what's going on right now doesn't remember what it was like when this program was relevant.

As I was watching the Northwestern game the other day and the packed and noisy Welsh-Ryan Arena, it further cemented that Minnesota is the new Northwestern. Every conference needs a doormat, and we're it. We might avoid last place this year, but that doesn't mean we're not the new Northwestern.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Anyone who's enjoying what's going on right now doesn't remember what it was like when this program was relevant.

As I was watching the Northwestern game the other day and the packed and noisy Welsh-Ryan Arena, it further cemented that Minnesota is the new Northwestern. Every conference needs a doormat, and we're it. We might avoid last place this year, but that doesn't mean we're not the new Northwestern.
Click to expand...
The last two years were awful. The talent on this team that Ben has assembled is nowhere near the doormat. I'm not happy with the coaching this year, but I'll give him the rest of the year to see what he does. The talent is actually pretty good, and it's now his job to put them in a position to win consistently. He did that in the second half against Penn State - they took better shots, limited turnovers, etc. In the previous four games they should have been at least 2-2 instead of 0-4, and I do put that on Ben and staff.

Part of coaching, as you have written above, is assembling the roster. The roster is much improved this year from where it was, and it is good enough to compete with every team in the Big Ten (I put Purdue at another level than everyone else, and even they will have some flops like they have had). Because the roster is better I don't expect him to win ever game, but the talent is good enough to go .500 in conference this year or better. The coaching is what makes a difference in the Big Ten as the talent is really pretty close among most programs.
 

DarthGopher said:
This is where the complete lack of any HC experience absolutely killed him. The landscape required someone who had managed a roster before at a high level. They needed to draw on all their past experiences to navigate this new world effectively. With the way the portal was shaping up and NIL, leadership had to have known it was going to be chaotic. Chaos and inexperience make really bad bed fellows. Unfortunately, we've seen the results.

This team is better and is more fun to watch. Will it be enough? We'll know for sure in about 6 weeks.
Click to expand...
Agreed- having no film to show recruits meant he was recruits solely on promises and trust. Tough way to start- but all head coaches had to have their first game somewhere! He's built on it though imo!
 

Bad Gopher said:
Let me put it this way: if I took that job, I would consider it my responsibility whatever happens under my watch. That's what I take on when I accept that salary and responsibility...and 1,500% raise from what I make now.
Click to expand...

You would take responsibility for things that are outside of your control? Bullshit.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Anyone who's enjoying what's going on right now doesn't remember what it was like when this program was relevant.

As I was watching the Northwestern game the other day and the packed and noisy Welsh-Ryan Arena, it further cemented that Minnesota is the new Northwestern. Every conference needs a doormat, and we're it. We might avoid last place this year, but that doesn't mean we're not the new Northwestern.
Click to expand...

1) As to your first point, maybe people know the difference between now and then but they're just trying to enjoy their experiences any way they can.

2) Your doormat example nullifies your previously stated rule (if you're fuckups (your word not mine) in sports, the perception is that you're fuckups in most things). Even when Northwestern was a doormat in basketball (and football before that), alumni were very proud of their Northwestern degrees and prestigious employers very actively sought Northwestern grads.
 

when Coyle hired Johnson, he knew (presumably) that he was hiring someone who had never been a head coach before. that has to influence expectations. If Coyle had brought in a Dutcher or Musselman-type coach (lots of D1 experience) then presumably the expectations are different.

but when the AD makes the decision to hire a fledgling head coach, the AD has to understand that there may be a learning curve. Sure, Coyle probably expected more wins sooner - but assuming that hiring Johnson was Coyle's decision, then he has to live with that decision.

and if hiring Johnson was not Coyle's decision, then we have to ask whether firing Johnson would be Coyle's decision to make - or not.

does Coyle have the authority to fire Johnson? if he doesn't, then who does?
 


Well, no matter what Bad Mood Gopher says I like the team this year. This year is a whole lot more fun than last year. Someday I might be throwing a complete hissy fit if we only started off the Big10 4-5 but this year it works and I am happy to have it.

Go Gophers!
 

Tucker32 said:
The last two years were awful. The talent on this team that Ben has assembled is nowhere near the doormat. I'm not happy with the coaching this year, but I'll give him the rest of the year to see what he does. The talent is actually pretty good, and it's now his job to put them in a position to win consistently. He did that in the second half against Penn State - they took better shots, limited turnovers, etc. In the previous four games they should have been at least 2-2 instead of 0-4, and I do put that on Ben and staff.

Part of coaching, as you have written above, is assembling the roster. The roster is much improved this year from where it was, and it is good enough to compete with every team in the Big Ten (I put Purdue at another level than everyone else, and even they will have some flops like they have had). Because the roster is better I don't expect him to win ever game, but the talent is good enough to go .500 in conference this year or better. The coaching is what makes a difference in the Big Ten as the talent is really pretty close among most programs.
Click to expand...
Very fair assessment. I'm really hoping in about 6 weeks we're looking at 9-10 conference wins, maybe a B1G tournament win and an NIT or better berth. The talent is there to do this. If the team that showed up in the 2nd half against Nebby, Maryland and PSU shows up for both halfs, they can absolutely play with anyone (exception would be Purdue). It starts with Northwestern Saturday. That is a solid team. Hopefully a week off between games will help. They have got to stop digging these big holes early and/or allowing the 20-2 runs. Some of that is also coaching - when to call timeouts, what sets to run to settle things down, etc. Sometimes they come out of timeouts just as discombobulated as when they went in. Can't have that anymore.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
when Coyle hired Johnson, he knew (presumably) that he was hiring someone who had never been a head coach before. that has to influence expectations. If Coyle had brought in a Dutcher or Musselman-type coach (lots of D1 experience) then presumably the expectations are different.

but when the AD makes the decision to hire a fledgling head coach, the AD has to understand that there may be a learning curve. Sure, Coyle probably expected more wins sooner - but assuming that hiring Johnson was Coyle's decision, then he has to live with that decision.

and if hiring Johnson was not Coyle's decision, then we have to ask whether firing Johnson would be Coyle's decision to make - or not.

does Coyle have the authority to fire Johnson? if he doesn't, then who does?
Click to expand...
He also hired LW on the women’s side, was patient with her to see if she could turn the corner. Unfortunately it didn’t work out.
Would think he’s going to be as patient with BJ. Maybe not exactly the same number of years, but certainly more than 2 in spite of what some on here want or wanted to happen already.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
he knew (presumably) that he was hiring someone who had never been a head coach before. that has to influence expectations.
Click to expand...
This is exactly why he's all but assured a 4th year. They've done enough this year.

Coyle had a long leash for Ben when he hired him unless it was a complete disaster (which it damn near was) but even though they're not great, they're much better this year and I think it's fair to think they'll be better next year as well.

I didn't like the hire at all, and I'm not a huge Ben guy at this point, but I also think we have yet to see Ben's best.
 

stocker08 said:
You would take responsibility for things that are outside of your control? Bullshit.
Click to expand...
What!?! Yes, for sure, I'd man up and say yes: whether it's a recruit I lost a battle for or someone on my roster who transferred, it's my responsibility. I'm the party responsible for assembling the roster. It also means I get credit for my successes, which are also "out of my control" in that it's the kid's choice. That's how it works. That's why these guys get the big bucks. It's also why the ones who are good at this win games and have long careers.
 

skiumah1 said:
This is exactly why he's all but assured a 4th year. They've done enough this year.

Coyle had a long leash for Ben when he hired him unless it was a complete disaster (which it damn near was) but even though they're not great, they're much better this year and I think it's fair to think they'll be better next year as well.

I didn't like the hire at all, and I'm not a huge Ben guy at this point, but I also think we have yet to see Ben's best.
Click to expand...
Friendly amendment. I do think the last two years were a complete disaster, especially in the portal era.

Like many on this board, I think if the present situation was 10 years ago, I would be enjoying this season much more, with anticipation that things are looking up for next year. Portal and NIL make that optimism for next year position a really hard sell. I'm not confident in the era we are in that he can keep enough of the key players intact, no matter how much they like him. Payne, Christie, and maybe even Hawkins and Mitchell probably are already seeing offers floated to their advisors.

I'm impressed that CBJ has assembled guys who can shoot. I don't know the stats, but by the eye test, we have more capable shooters on the roster than we have had in at least a decade. I'm impressed that he is recruiting good human beings. He needs to recruit these elements along with guys with the strength and quickness to be competitive every night in the B1G.

The unpredictability of the future quells my optimism about it, though.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom