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Bad Gopher said:
What!?! Yes, for sure, I'd man up and say yes: whether it's a recruit I lost a battle for or someone on my roster who transferred, it's my responsibility. I'm the party responsible for assembling the roster. It also means I get credit for my successes, which are also "out of my control" in that it's the kid's choice. That's how it works. That's why these guys get the big bucks. It's also why the ones who are good at this win games and have long careers.
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Bullshit. Johnson had little control over who was going to transfer and who wasn't going to transfer. He was left his a bare bones roster and to say otherwise is "intellectually dishonest" to use your words.
 

stocker08 said:
Bullshit. Johnson had little control over who was going to transfer and who wasn't going to transfer. He was left his a bare bones roster and to say otherwise is "intellectually dishonest" to use your words.
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Again, that's the job, that's the deal. Some are good at it and produce results. Ben has been horrifically bad at practically every aspect of it from the get go. The cream rises to the top, and some sink to the bottom. There's no hiding who is who; just check the win/loss record.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Again, that's the job, that's the deal. Some are good at it and produce results. Ben has been horrifically bad at practically every aspect of it from the get go. The cream rises to the top, and some sink to the bottom. There's no hiding who is who; just check the win/loss record.
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After being left with no roster to speak of.....it seems like Johnson's team is improving now that his own recruits are getting more experience. Rising.....not sinking.

But hey....thanks for pointing out that Ben has been horrifically bad at practically every aspect of the job. Always helps to know which posters can be ignored for having no rational take on the situation.
 

stocker08 said:
Bullshit. Johnson had little control over who was going to transfer and who wasn't going to transfer. He was left his a bare bones roster and to say otherwise is "intellectually dishonest" to use your words.
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That's just as big of an exaggeration. 10 guys had eligibility to return. Only one or two of them were absolutely certain to leave (Carr). The rest had varying degrees of reasons to stay. Ben chose to put very little effort into convincing them to do so. As a result all but one of them left.

To suggest that every other coach would have also had the entire roster leave is a fact simply not in evidence. Further, a coach with actual D-1 experience would likely have brought 2-3 guys with him from his previous spot. Even Pitino did that from FIU. Ben brought no one.
 

howeda7 said:
That's just as big of an exaggeration. 10 guys had eligibility to return. Only one or two of them were absolutely certain to leave (Carr). The rest had varying degrees of reasons to stay. Ben chose to put very little effort into convincing them to do so. As a result all but one of them left.

To suggest that every other coach would have also had the entire roster leave is a fact simply not in evidence. Further, a coach with actual D-1 experience would likely have brought 2-3 guys with him from his previous spot. Even Pitino did that from FIU. Ben brought no one.
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Mashburn came to Minnesota for Pitino and followed him out the door. That's as absolutely sure as it gets. Robbins followed his uncle to Vandy. That's a pretty sure thing too.

Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were the only three players on that team that you could even consider building something around. Would it have been nice to keep Gabe, Gach, and Brandon Johnson? Sure. But none of those guys would have moved the needle much.
 


stocker08 said:
Mashburn came to Minnesota for Pitino and followed him out the door. That's as absolutely sure as it gets. Robbins followed his uncle to Vandy. That's a pretty sure thing too.

Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were the only three players on that team that you could even consider building something around. Would it have been nice to keep Gabe, Gach, and Brandon Johnson? Sure. But none of those guys would have moved the needle much.
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I'll grant you Carr and Mashburn. We could, and probably should, have kept Conroy on staff. That was a choice Ben made.
 

howeda7 said:
I'll grant you Carr and Mashburn. We could, and probably should, have kept Conroy on staff. That was a choice Ben made.
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I mean....keeping an assistant on staff that you don't really want so a good (not great) player sticks around? You could make the argument. But I'm not sure that we're in a much different position today even if Robbins stays. There simply wasn't nearly enough young talent left over on the roster due to the number of recruiting misses in the last two years by Pitino.
 

stocker08 said:
I mean....keeping an assistant on staff that you don't really want so a good (not great) player sticks around? You could make the argument. But I'm not sure that we're in a much different position today even if Robbins stays. There simply wasn't nearly enough young talent left over on the roster due to the number of recruiting misses in the last two years by Pitino.
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Not just to keep Robbins. But supposedly he was considering keeping him. Having an assistant with head coaching would have been good.
 




GopherWeatherGuy said:
So does Florida, Texas, Arizona, and everywhere else.
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And you are entirely correct. Do you have a point you would like to make?

But keep in mind seasons are more distinct and severe moving away from the equator. Something about how our planet tilts itself away from, then back, vis a vis the sun.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Let me put it this way: if I took that job, I would consider it my responsibility whatever happens under my watch. That's what I take on when I accept that salary and responsibility...and 1,500% raise from what I make now.
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Do you have some evidence that Johnson does not accept responsibility for the Gopher basketball program?
 

Holy Man said:
Friendly amendment. I do think the last two years were a complete disaster, especially in the portal era.

Like many on this board, I think if the present situation was 10 years ago, I would be enjoying this season much more, with anticipation that things are looking up for next year. Portal and NIL make that optimism for next year position a really hard sell. I'm not confident in the era we are in that he can keep enough of the key players intact, no matter how much they like him. Payne, Christie, and maybe even Hawkins and Mitchell probably are already seeing offers floated to their advisors.

I'm impressed that CBJ has assembled guys who can shoot. I don't know the stats, but by the eye test, we have more capable shooters on the roster than we have had in at least a decade. I'm impressed that he is recruiting good human beings. He needs to recruit these elements along with guys with the strength and quickness to be competitive every night in the B1G.

The unpredictability of the future quells my optimism about it, though.
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That's the best reason to look at Saturday's game and then worry about the next one. Next season will come soon enough.
 

howeda7 said:
That's just as big of an exaggeration. 10 guys had eligibility to return. Only one or two of them were absolutely certain to leave (Carr). The rest had varying degrees of reasons to stay. Ben chose to put very little effort into convincing them to do so. As a result all but one of them left.

To suggest that every other coach would have also had the entire roster leave is a fact simply not in evidence. Further, a coach with actual D-1 experience would likely have brought 2-3 guys with him from his previous spot. Even Pitino did that from FIU. Ben brought no one.
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I'm not sure how hard Ben tried to keep them, but I have no doubt that those athletes and their parents were just as freaked out over that bizarre hire as we fans were. That's why you saw the mass exodus. I would've got while the gettin was good, too, even if I loved the school and the education I was getting. This isn't more complicated than it looked.
 



Dakota2 said:
Do you have some evidence that Johnson does not accept responsibility for the Gopher basketball program?
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He's a standup guy. Of course he does. If it doesn't work out for him here, he'll be just as classy about it as Pitino was.
 

stocker08 said:
Mashburn came to Minnesota for Pitino and followed him out the door. That's as absolutely sure as it gets. Robbins followed his uncle to Vandy. That's a pretty sure thing too.

Carr, Mashburn, and Robbins were the only three players on that team that you could even consider building something around. Would it have been nice to keep Gabe, Gach, and Brandon Johnson? Sure. But none of those guys would have moved the needle much.
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Gabe was gone no matter what. His head was exploding. Nobody needed Gach to catch the ball standing out of bounds. We brought in several lower level guys better the Both. Brandon Johnson would have been well worth retaining. Ben couldn't get that done.

But he also brought in Fox, a guy with 50 offers. Nobody on earth could know Fox would miss the entire first year with injury, then the second year. Bringing in Fox was a big boost for that first roster.
 

howeda7 said:
That's just as big of an exaggeration. 10 guys had eligibility to return. Only one or two of them were absolutely certain to leave (Carr). The rest had varying degrees of reasons to stay. Ben chose to put very little effort into convincing them to do so. As a result all but one of them left.

To suggest that every other coach would have also had the entire roster leave is a fact simply not in evidence. Further, a coach with actual D-1 experience would likely have brought 2-3 guys with him from his previous spot. Even Pitino did that from FIU. Ben brought no one.
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Other than Mashburn, how many other guys did Pitino take with him to NM?
 

Holy Man said:
Friendly amendment. I do think the last two years were a complete disaster, especially in the portal era.

Like many on this board, I think if the present situation was 10 years ago, I would be enjoying this season much more, with anticipation that things are looking up for next year. Portal and NIL make that optimism for next year position a really hard sell. I'm not confident in the era we are in that he can keep enough of the key players intact, no matter how much they like him. Payne, Christie, and maybe even Hawkins and Mitchell probably are already seeing offers floated to their advisors.

I'm impressed that CBJ has assembled guys who can shoot. I don't know the stats, but by the eye test, we have more capable shooters on the roster than we have had in at least a decade. I'm impressed that he is recruiting good human beings. He needs to recruit these elements along with guys with the strength and quickness to be competitive every night in the B1G.

The unpredictability of the future quells my optimism about it, though.
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If he can't keep these guys around, it's over. The Battle transfer was already a tough look.

It's true Ben would have been far better over pre-transfer open market.

I would lean towards thinking guys would stay, especially since we're having some success. My thinking means nothing though. We'll see.
 

I should clarify a little on fault versus responsibility, as this seems to be a matter of confusion for some. Is it Kirk's fault that one of his redshirts got zapped by the Gorn? No. He was taking reasonable steps and observing reasonable risk. Is it his responsibility? Yes. He's the captain.
 

Dakota2 said:
Gabe was gone no matter what. His head was exploding. Nobody needed Gach to catch the ball standing out of bounds. We brought in several lower level guys better the Both. Brandon Johnson would have been well worth retaining. Ben couldn't get that done.

But he also brought in Fox, a guy with 50 offers. Nobody on earth could know Fox would miss the entire first year with injury, then the second year. Bringing in Fox was a big boost for that first roster.
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Ben was supposed to be an upgrade over Pitino. You don't think he could have coached up guys like Gach, Williams, and Freeman? I think it would have made his job a lot easier had he retained 4-5 guys instead of 1 going into his first year. While I really enjoy watching Fox play, he is the 8th/9th guy on what is currently a 4-5 team in conference. He would have helped the first two years, but by how much? He also would be gone this season had he been healthy.
 
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Dakota2 said:
And you are entirely correct. Do you have a point you would like to make?

But keep in mind seasons are more distinct and severe moving away from the equator. Something about how our planet tilts itself away from, then back, vis a vis the sun.
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You said weather and climate had no relationship, which is laughably wrong. There is no climate without weather. There are different climates, and different weather depending on where you are at in the world and what season it is.

Bad Gopher's analogy was correct. Your last several posts further prove that.
 

GopherBlood777 said:
Ben was supposed to be an upgrade over Pitino. You don't think he could have coached up guys like Gach, Williams, and Freeman? I think it would have made his job a lot easier had he retained 4-5 guys instead of 1 going into his first year. While I really enjoy watching Fox play, he is the 8th/9th guy on what is currently a 4-5 team in conference. He would have helped the first two years, but by how much? He also would be gone this season had he been healthy.
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I'm sure that his job would have been a little easier had he only had to fill half the roster rather than damn near the entire roster. But coaching up guys like Gach, Williams, and Freeman? Gach went back to Utah to play under one of the message board darlings, Craig Smith, and was nothing more than a role player. Williams went to Oregon State and barely played.....IIRC. And Freeman fell all the way off the radar. Not sure there was a whole lot that Johnson could do with these guys. And I couldn't tell you how hard Johnson tried to keep them. The three most valuable players on the roster were either gone or most likely gone regardless.
 

Dakota2 said:
Gabe was gone no matter what. His head was exploding. Nobody needed Gach to catch the ball standing out of bounds. We brought in several lower level guys better the Both. Brandon Johnson would have been well worth retaining. Ben couldn't get that done.

But he also brought in Fox, a guy with 50 offers. Nobody on earth could know Fox would miss the entire first year with injury, then the second year. Bringing in Fox was a big boost for that first roster.
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Umm, we knew literally before Fox picked up the pen to sign. He actually got hurt PRIOR to signing on the dotted line. I'll grant you we didn't know about year two (injury) but many/most athletes do not come back 100% after that first injury. I'm happily surprised the way Fox is playing and looking physically. 90%+ D1 teams lose players to the portal each year. The vast majority of coaches who take over for a FIRED coach must replace many/most of the roster. Ben's challenge replacing Pitino was no greater than any other HC who takes over for a FIRED coach. Most new coaches who take over for a FIRED HC don't fill the roster with lower tier SENIORS.

As to the thread title: Yes, I am enjoying Gopher basketball this season.
 

stocker08 said:
Williams went to Oregon State and barely played
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You know, I couldn't stand Williams when he played here so I was glad he bolted after Pitino's departure. After one lousy season at Oregon State and another one at Tulane, I thought: "Serves you right, suckers!" But, turns out that finally he's risen to about average and is a reasonably productive rotation player in his 5th year (still at Tulane). That 5th playing year often makes a big difference. Won't happen too often after next season.
 

stocker08 said:
I'm sure that his job would have been a little easier had he only had to fill half the roster rather than damn near the entire roster. But coaching up guys like Gach, Williams, and Freeman? Gach went back to Utah to play under one of the message board darlings, Craig Smith, and was nothing more than a role player. Williams went to Oregon State and barely played.....IIRC. And Freeman fell all the way off the radar. Not sure there was a whole lot that Johnson could do with these guys. And I couldn't tell you how hard Johnson tried to keep them. The three most valuable players on the roster were either gone or most likely gone regardless.
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Not disputing the bolded at all. Not saying the players I mentioned were world beaters or would have led to conference titles either. We likely still would have finished in last place, but we may have been more competitive and would have had a fuller roster at least. I would have taken any of them though over the likes of dan ogele, charlie daniels, taurus samuels, Jack wilson and empty scholarships we handed to walk-ons will ramberg/jackson purcell. I just think Ben probably made the first 2 seasons way tougher by choosing to retain no one from the prior roster (sans Ihnen) and bring in mostly 1 and done in the program players in year 1. Battle/Fox/Ihnen/Thompson were the only players on scholarship year 1 with eligibility beyond that season. This made year 2 that much tougher. Hopefully it is now paying dividends, but there is still a lot of basketball left to find out!
 

GopherBlood777 said:
Ben was supposed to be an upgrade over Pitino. You don't think he could have coached up guys like Gach, Williams, and Freeman? I think it would have made his job a lot easier had he retained 4-5 guys instead of 1 going into his first year. While I really enjoy watching Fox play, he is the 8th/9th guy on what is currently a 4-5 team in conference. He would have helped the first two years, but by how much? He also would be gone this season had he been healthy.
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Nobody can coach Gach, Williams, and Freeman into Big Ten players and there was no reason to care if they left.

As you say, Fox certainly would have helped the first two years. He was a good signee.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
You said weather and climate had no relationship, which is laughably wrong. There is no climate without weather. There are different climates, and different weather depending on where you are at in the world and what season it is.

Bad Gopher's analogy was correct. Your last several posts further prove that.
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Simply wrong again. Weather is short-term and subject to atmospheric conditions that change, sometimes quickly. Climate is viewed over tens of thousands of years.

Laughable is someone who does not understand why it isn't 80 in Minneapolis in January when it could be in Florida.
 
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Big Dawg said:
Umm, we knew literally before Fox picked up the pen to sign. He actually got hurt PRIOR to signing on the dotted line. I'll grant you we didn't know about year two (injury) but many/most athletes do not come back 100% after that first injury. I'm happily surprised the way Fox is playing and looking physically. 90%+ D1 teams lose players to the portal each year. The vast majority of coaches who take over for a FIRED coach must replace many/most of the roster. Ben's challenge replacing Pitino was no greater than any other HC who takes over for a FIRED coach. Most new coaches who take over for a FIRED HC don't fill the roster with lower tier SENIORS.

As to the thread title: Yes, I am enjoying Gopher basketball this season.
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You may be correct that Fox got hurt literally before signing. I don't recall. But if so, I will amend it to say when Fox announced he was choosing Minnesota nobody could know the future.
 


Dakota2 said:
Simply wrong again. Weather is short-term and subject to atmospheric conditions that change, sometimes quickly. Climate is viewed over tens of thousands of years.

Laughable is someone who does not understand why it isn't 80 in Minneapolis in January when it could be in Florida.
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Climate is determined by weather over a long period of time, and it's not as along as 10s of thousands of years. Thanks again for proving how stupid you are.

Not only do you not know anything about basketball, you don't know anything about climate/weather and can't follow a simple conversation.
 

RockChalk said:
Looks like the restructure of both of these programs, at the time bottom feeders, one has elevated northward in their respective conference. While the other has remained very much close to the bottom.

https://www.thegazette.com/cyclone-basketball/iowa-state-mens-basketball-roster-reshaped-by-new-coach-t-j-otzelberger/
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Iowa State only was a temporary "bottom feeder" program. ISU has made 10 NCAA tournaments within the last 20 years and will make it 11 this season.

Yeah, ISU's coach did a great job in immediately taking a team that had a horrible year and making them a winner again. That's why people wrote articles about him. People don't write articles about coaches who fail to do that but I would guess there are significantly more of them than there are coaches like Iowa State's.
 

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