Do you want Ben back for a fourth year?

[WoodburyTim]

If Ben gets fired, multiple players leave, perhaps nearly the entire roster. These players are committed to him and have been vocal about liking him. Do y’all want to start from scratch again? I am tired of the revolving door. He has a foundation. Let him build it. Asuma wants to play for him. Let’s see what plays out with who stays/leaves and portal.

I voted to give him another year, but the thought that players these days are devoted to any one coach is simplistic. If Musselman or Nedved came in the day after Johnson was fired, these guys wouldn’t follow him E, Kentucky or wherever he might end up. The guys that would help us would stay, the guys that wouldn’t would be pushed out. Just the way things are these days.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

That is literally what AD’s are paid to decide
Are you serious with this post?

You don’t think what ADs project to happen in the future plays into firing and hiring?

Of course, I'm serious. The only AD that I've seen do that is the AD who fired Tubby and he was an idiot.

 

[MplsGopher]

I'm saying that I would love to have the first world problem of multiple top 2-3 finishes in the BIG and be such a hot team/program that every P6 team in the land would try and steal our coach. I dream of that scenario.

Sure, I hear that.

I'm just making an, extra perhaps side note at this point, that even Dutcher and Haskins seem to only have had one special season each:

So it to me still begs an interesting question in its own right: if Ben consistently got to "just" the current day equivalent of 10-8 ... is that good enough for fans?

What should we expect?

 

[Spaulding!No!]

That is literally what AD’s are paid to decide
Are you serious with this post?

You don’t think what ADs project to happen in the future plays into firing and hiring?

Buyout would drop from 8 mill tho. Unless Ben gets a raise and extension similar to the year one last place reward.

 

[Dakota2]

That doesn’t make it the right decision to keep him

When they fire him next year it means it should’ve happened this week

Wrong. It makes it the right decision because the upward trend is dramatic. You would not exchange something improving with an unknown. It also makes it the right decision because no AD in America would make the move under the circumstances. Strongly indicative.

 

[Dakota2]

Should we put that in the job description?

I think Johnson did a fair job of getting good performances out of the talent he had (the starters and Fox anyway) but he was at least a good player or two short as usual. I think this excerpt from a Big Ten Basketball power ranking published 8 days ago says it all:

It's been tough sledding for the Golden Gophers down the stretch. Minnesota has lost four of its last five games, losing three of those contests by double digits. Minnesota is a much-improved team from a season ago, but it still lacks the necessary depth to get through a grueling Big Ten season.

The teams we played at the end of the conference season knew that and threw 10 guys at us to wear us down and keep their best players fresher.

I think Johnson needs to understand that if he thinks he has 9 capable Big Ten caliber players, he really only has 7 and, if one of them is hurt or has other issues, he only has 6. So, he must recruit (at least from the portal) doggedly until he has 11 players who fit that description (at least for 10-20 minutes per game). Do that and maybe he'll end up with 8 or 9 good ones.

As far as the importance of coaching, I certainly don't dismiss it but a coach, boss, teacher, etc. will always look better if their subordinates are better. One of my favorite quotes on coaching was given by the venerable Dean Smith while reflecting back on his career with his characteristic modesty:

"I'd call a timeout and diagram a play. Now, whether the ball went in the basket or not, well, that's where recruiting came in."

And so you are another who believes it is a conscience decision on Johnson's part to only have six or seven Big Ten players on the roster? That he absolutely knew Ihnen would be a bust, that Carrington would leave the team awhile then get hurt, that JOJ would somehow cease to be a player, that Betts would not be ready? Did he plan all that and stubbornly stick with it even though some guys like A.J. Storr were out there and interested in Minnesota?

 

[Some guy]

Wrong. It makes it the right decision because the upward trend is dramatic. You would not exchange something improving with an unknown. It also makes it the right decision because no AD in America would make the move under the circumstances. Strongly indicative.

Your job is to know if you’re an AD
Plenty of coaches have been fired season for better seasons than the 2024 gophers because of the predicted future

 

[Dakota2]

My prediction was largely based on Ben moreso than the players on the team. I like the roster with the exception of Wilson. Backup center was a glaring weakness. Depth was not a weakness otherwise in my opinion. I believe a more skilled coach could have found ways to better distribute minutes leading to better results down the stretch.

Distribute minutes to who? There were games he had six players, the starters and Fox. When Carrington was healthy he had seven. Ihnen had many chances earlier, even starting a handful of games. Ben couldn't trust him down the stretch. And nobody knows what happened to JOJ. Whatever it was, he was not deemed ready to play.

 

[Some guy]

Buyout would drop from 8 mill tho. Unless Ben gets a raise and extension similar to the year one last place reward.

I suppose the buyout could be part of the calculation.
I think the bigger calculation is Coyle is drinking the kool aid

 

[Some guy]

Of course, I'm serious. The only AD that I've seen do that is the AD who fired Tubby and he was an idiot.

You should look around more.

 

[Dakota2]

I see no one actually answered "what does CBJ do well as a coach"

Any thoughts??

This year we ended 49th in off 128th in def per ken pom. Solid offense. Gross defense.

I liked our offensive splits 55/35/70 isn't awful shooting. Assist totals good. I do think we benefitted on some of these from a putrid NC schedule but regardless.

Defensively I just don't know what to think, we're supposed to have this guru on the bench and CBJ is this tough gritty guy. Yet we look most games like a 5th grade team could score at will on us. I thought he did a poor job on that end this year. Teams killed us from 3 and on the boards. I think that is a reflection on coaching.

Recruiting wise he got some nice pieces but we have 9th place talent I think. The portal needs to hit fairly big I think this spring. My other big issue is I don't see guys getting drastically better. Payne certainly improved but I think that was having Hawkins vs Cooper. But joj regressed. Carrington regressed. We might need an amber alert for Betts.

Overall I just don't see what he does that makes anyone think this is going to take a sharp turn in the positive direction. And I don't mean barely making the NIT. I mean actually good like a WI or Iowa has been.

I wish I could be exuberant over CBJ I'm just not. He's the coach so I hope he wins but I just am not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

You don't need to be exuberant nor morose about Johnson. We improved, he will be the coach next year, the existing squad will not be noticeably better, he needs minimum three transfers that are good enough to compete for starting time.

With three more players as good or better than the returning core, plus likely big improvement by Cam and good improvement from Payne, we will be eight or nine starter-level players deep. And note, Hawkins and Mitchell will be a bit better just by virtue of playing in the Big Ten a year.

That's Johnson's only job. In-game coaching, inbounds plays ... none of it matters compared to talent.

Johnson got middle of the Big Ten out of 10th or 11th place talent this year. That was a good sign. But to get to the upper third we need three or even four more good players from the portal. That means a few guys need to leave.

 

[Dakota2]

I mean, I'd say yes. Those other guys have had far greater success than Ben despite the results of this one season. And it's debatable we were even better than MD to begin with, despite having a couple more Big Ten wins than them.

Do you think Greg Gard is a better coach than Izzo?

I wouldn't doubt it right now. He is getting a lot more out of less talent than Izzo is getting from superior talent. Tom's run is winding down. A lot of good kids would rather play for Gard today than Izzo.

 

[GFBfan]

I think CBJ knows basketball. I do have concerns about his personality and not being able to hit that emotional nerve that gets the guys going.

How many times did they rally in the second half this year? The team did not quit and battled back from some big deficits. That doesn't happen if the coach can't get players going.

 

[Dakota2]

Yeah, obviously this wasn't a great year for MSU. But he's finished top 3 in the conference in 59% of his seasons as opposed to 39% for Gard. And coaches are responsible for bringing in the talent.

Sophia Loren may have at one time been the most beautiful woman on earth. She isn't today.

Clearly the issue on this thread and multiple others is that many here judge coaches only on the entirety of their body of work. That's OK if you define it that way.

Myself, I don't care if Ben or whoever comes next gets to the Coaches Hall of Fame. I am interested in the next game and how we play and when there are no more games this year, I only care about next year. Not the "program" over the next 20 years; just next year.

 

[Dakota2]

That is literally what AD’s are paid to decide
Are you serious with this post?

You don’t think what ADs project to happen in the future plays into firing and hiring?

Sure it does. For the last three months Coyle has seen a competitive team and he projects that into further improvement next year. That is why he is retaining his coach.

 

[Some guy]

Sure it does. For the last three months Coyle has seen a competitive team and he projects that into further improvement next year. That is why he is retaining his coach.

Yup. I agree with this analysis. I disagree that the team will be better next year.

 

[Dakota2]

Your job is to know if you’re an AD
Plenty of coaches have been fired season for better seasons than the 2024 gophers because of the predicted future

Plenty? Can you provide a couple examples of coaches going from 2-18 to 9-11 in the Big Ten Conference and getting fired?

 

[Dakota2]

Yup. I agree with this analysis. I disagree that the team will be better next year.

OK, so we agree on what is known and disagree on what is unknown. Except, in truth, I don't know if we will be better next year or not right now. If we come back with the same team plus Asuma, no. We will most likely finish lower in an improved league.

If we come back with most of the current core plus a transfer power forward and wing who are good enough to compete for starts, and with a strong, aggressive transfer center to come off the bench, then I believe we will be better.

We will know in the next couple months.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

And so you are another who believes it is a conscience decision on Johnson's part to only have six or seven Big Ten players on the roster? That he absolutely knew Ihnen would be a bust, that Carrington would leave the team awhile then get hurt, that JOJ would somehow cease to be a player, that Betts would not be ready? Did he plan all that and stubbornly stick with it even though some guys like A.J. Storr were out there and interested in Minnesota?

No, I am of the opinion that he regularly overestimates the depth he has and I have three years of team results to support that opinion.

 

[gregbrady]

Ben is at 15 wins in the Big 10 through three years- terrible.
Clem was at 15 wins after 3 years- also terrible.
Good things were around the corner for Clem. Let’s hope they are for Ben - it’s worth one more year to find out.

Also note that the year before Clem took us to the final 4 - we lost in the first round of the NIT…

He’s our coach- they aren’t firing him now. Let’s get behind him.

Wasn’t the Big Ten season only 18 games during Clem’s tenure? Ben has then had 6 more chances at those 15 victories. I’d also guess the conference was deeper to to bottom with probably just Northwestern & Penn St.

Not debating anyone. Pointing out that no AD in America would fire a coach who went from two conference wins to nine.

Didn’t Norwood fire Tubby after winning an NCAA tourney game?

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

You should look around more.

I should look around more? Are you an AD and are you in regular conversations with other ADs? If not, I don't know why you think you know so much.

Tubby was fired after making the tournament and winning a game. Maybe with the lack of quality freshmen recruits he would have declined the following year but firing him was a very questionable decision. You don't think these coaches talk among each other? How many of them thought: "Why would I go to a place that isn't that great, has done very little in this century, and they could fire me after making an NCAA tournament because they think my teams might decline after that?" The best we could do after Tubby was Pitino, a guy with one year of head coaching experience. That kind of speaks for itself.

 

[Some guy]

I should look around more? Are you an AD and are you in regular conversations with other ADs? If not, I don't know why you think you know so much.

Tubby was fired after making the tournament and winning a game. Maybe with the lack of quality freshmen recruits he would have declined the following year but firing him was a very questionable decision. You don't think these coaches talk among each other? How many of them thought: "Why would I go to a place that isn't that great, has done very little in this century, and they could fire me after making an NCAA tournament because they think my teams might decline after that?" The best we could do after Tubby was Pitino, a guy with one year of head coaching experience. That kind of speaks for itself.

If you truly have never seen a coach get fired after this type of a season, you should look around more

 

[Some guy]

OK, so we agree on what is known and disagree on what is unknown. Except, in truth, I don't know if we will be better next year or not right now. If we come back with the same team plus Asuma, no. We will most likely finish lower in an improved league.

If we come back with most of the current core plus a transfer power forward and wing who are good enough to compete for starts, and with a strong, aggressive transfer center to come off the bench, then I believe we will be better.

We will know in the next couple months.

Yup. And I hope I’m wrong about how they end up next year. johnson would be a great one to have success if he could

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

Didn’t Norwood fire Tubby after winning an NCAA tourney game?

Yes, but he was an idiot and, apparently, something even more objectionable discovered later. He fired Tubby and ended up having to hire Richard Pitino who proceeded to have a tenure significantly worse than Tubby's (a .534 overall winning percentage vs. Tubby's .605).

 

[Some guy]

Plenty? Can you provide a couple examples of coaches going from 2-18 to 9-11 in the Big Ten Conference and getting fired?

There are plenty of examples of bad coaches getting fired after seasons with improved records

Feel free to disagree with this reality

 

[howeda7]

I voted to give him another year, but the thought that players these days are devoted to any one coach is simplistic. If Musselman or Nedved came in the day after Johnson was fired, these guys wouldn’t follow him E, Kentucky or wherever he might end up. The guys that would help us would stay, the guys that wouldn’t would be pushed out. Just the way things are these days.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Villa Six. It could do no wrong and then it hit MN.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Yes, but he was an idiot and, apparently, something even more objectionable discovered later. He fired Tubby and ended up having to hire Richard Pitino who proceeded to have a tenure significantly worse than Tubby's (a .534 overall winning percentage vs. Tubby's .605).

Yet another reason to not fire Ben. The last to fires have resulted in coaches with little to no experience as a head coach. Two different AD's could not draw a high profile name. Yes a couple could have possibly been hired with the right timing in the past, but the two last hires should tell you how MN is thought of.

 

[bga1]

View attachment 30634

In his defense the M is right next to the N on the keyboard. We still have guys here (experts) who refer to our previous coach as Patino.

 

[MplsGopher]

I wouldn't doubt it right now. He is getting a lot more out of less talent than Izzo is getting from superior talent. Tom's run is winding down. A lot of good kids would rather play for Gard today than Izzo.

Especially if they’re from Lakeville!