Do you want Ben back for a fourth year?

[TwistingMyMelon]

Yet Hoiberg was a coach at ISU (Very Successful), coached in the NBA, and his first 3 years at Nebraska (9wins) were worse than Ben's at MN(15wins).

I've brought that up (along with Pikiell and Chambers' first three years) numerous times but that makes little impression on people who have their paradigm and are sticking to it regardless of the facts of recent history. In their minds, those programs can never be very good while Minnesota is a potential powerhouse that is just being held back by incompetent administrators and coaches.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I've brought that up (along with Pikiell and Chambers' first three years) numerous times but that makes little impression on people who have their paradigm and are sticking to it regardless of the facts of recent history. In their minds, those programs can never be very good while Minnesota is a potential powerhouse that is just being held back by incompetent administrators and coaches.

Our Football and Basketball programs are very similar. We had 1996/97 which was our 11-2 football season in 2019. Yet we are so much better than Nebraska, Northwestern and Penn State. MN is tough to win at no matter who is running the programs. I think we are in a good place with both programs right now.

 

[disco]

You're ignoring the past and misremembering it as some sort of good program. It never has been outside of a 5 year stretch under Clem Haskins.

This. In my lifetime (I'm 51) the team has been decent - then wrecked by scandal, decent - wrecked by scandal, rinse and repeat. They've never been a powerhouse and other than under Clem, never really been consistently good.

They've produced some really good individual players, that's most definitely true and I think that's what colors peoples' memory of Gopher hoops.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I've brought that up (along with Pikiell and Chambers' first three years) numerous times but that makes little impression on people who have their paradigm and are sticking to it regardless of the facts of recent history. In their minds, those programs can never be very good while Minnesota is a potential powerhouse that is just being held back by incompetent administrators and coaches.

And this has been explained many times over and over to you. Pikiell's teams play defense, they always have and always will. BJ's team's still don't do anything well.

Chambers was not a good coach, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up. He coached 9 seasons, never went to the NCAA tournament, and went to the NIT once. This is the level you have to stoop to to defend BJ's incompetence and the state of the Gopher basketball program. Sad.

 

[SHGopher]

Context:

Pitino finished his last regular season 6-14, 2nd worst in the Big Ten including:

Lost the one game against Indiana, the 5th worst Big Ten team.

Lost the one game against Penn State, the 4th worst Big Ten team.

Lost the one game against Northwestern, the 3rd worst Big Ten team.

Split with last-place Nebraska.


-----------------------

Tubby Smith was 46-62 (.426) in Big Ten games. No offense to Smith, a really good coach. Minnesota is a hard place to win.

----‐‐--------------------


This is a Vikings town. And then the Twins. And then...

Minnesota is not in a great spot for NIL.


‐-----‐‐------------

The facts about CBJ are mixed. There is cause to gripe.

On the other hand, this season at 9-11 plus NIT via backdoor was decent.


------------


I think most of us agree next year the expectation is higher. In fact I feel empathy for critics in that regard and also for putting up with last season.


-------

Ohio State and Iowa accepted NIT. It's not that bad.

Syracuse did not make the NIT cut. Sucks for them. Good for us.

 

[Gophers7633]

I've brought that up (along with Pikiell and Chambers' first three years) numerous times but that makes little impression on people who have their paradigm and are sticking to it regardless of the facts of recent history. In their minds, those programs can never be very good while Minnesota is a potential powerhouse that is just being held back by incompetent administrators and coaches.

Pikiell isn't a great comparison. The previous 3 years before Pikiell took over Rutgers won a total of 29 games and 8 conference games(with 5 of them being in the AAC). We weren't great by any means but we won 51 games and 23 B1G games prior to Ben taking over, and had a tournament appearance in that time frame.

In Pikiell's first 3 seasons he won 44 games and 13 B1G games. In Ben first 3 seasons we won 44 games(with an OOC SOS of 300+ every season) and 15 B1G games. One coach improved from the previous regime, the other coach hasn't.

 

[howeda7]

Pikiell isn't a great comparison. The previous 3 years before Pikiell took over Rutgers won a total of 29 games and 8 conference games(with 5 of them being in the AAC). We weren't great by any means but we won 51 games and 23 B1G games prior to Ben taking over, and had a tournament appearance in that time frame.

In Pikiell's first 3 seasons he won 44 games and 13 B1G games. In Ben first 3 seasons we won 44 games(with an OOC SOS of 300+ every season) and 15 B1G games. One coach improved from the previous regime, the other coach hasn't.

It usually goes "yeah but Coach K", "yeah but Clem" and "yeah but Pikiell" in descending order.

 

[Some guy]

Today I learned 9-11 in basketball is the same as 3-6 in football. GH never ceases to amaze me.

You must have missed the part where I said it’s a stupid comparison. Any comparison of football to basketball is probably a bad comparison.

But yes, getting 9th in the big ten in basketball at 9-11 is pretty similar to being in a 5 way tie for 8th and being clearly the worst of 9 teams to make a bowl from the conference

 

[bga1]

Ben is at 15 wins in the Big 10 through three years- terrible.
Clem was at 15 wins after 3 years- also terrible.
Good things were around the corner for Clem. Let’s hope they are for Ben - it’s worth one more year to find out.

Also note that the year before Clem took us to the final 4 - we lost in the first round of the NIT…

He’s our coach- they aren’t firing him now. Let’s get behind him.

 

[Otis]

Ben’s got his core and some juice going,
It would be a major mistake not to let him run it back unless we have a portal stampede out of town when the games end.

 

[Dakota2]

Middle of the pack?
I guess yeah if you only include a 1 year evaluation he is middle of the pack. He averages a 12th place finish out of 14 teams in his tenure here and has never been in the top half.

So yeah…if 3-12 is middle of the pack, yeah

The only thing that matters to Coyle is now ... current. Current is we finished the season middle of the pack in the Big Ten. That is how you evaluate the current, actual state of the program.

If next year shows regression and the upward trend is broken, then it becomes prudent to evaluate over the entire tenure. When you are trending up you only care about the present.

And, if there is regression next year I will be the first one on the phone impersonating Coyle with a request to Dustin Kerns to come visit.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

It feels very silly to even entertain the idea of switching coaches this off season.

Pending a mass exodus of players.

 

[Dakota2]

Middle of the pack?
I guess yeah if you only include a 1 year evaluation he is middle of the pack. He averages a 12th place finish out of 14 teams in his tenure here and has never been in the top half.

So yeah…if 3-12 is middle of the pack, yeah

By the way, where is Nebraska in the Big Ten? Would you use this year's record to evaluate Fred or his five-year record?

 

[Dakota2]

Well, if that happened and you looked at flecks 3 year stretch it would be 9-4, 6-7, 4-8…yes there would be controversy but I don’t think very good comparison.

A better comparison would be if he went 1-8 the next two years and his last 3 seasons were 3-6, 1-8, 1-8

But that’s still a bad comparison.
Because fleck has gone 29-32 in conference and has never been last place (so far).
Ben Johnson has gone 15-44. I personally think Minnesota would be an easier place to win at in hoops than football (you may disagree). But it’s still a bad comparison because the sports are so different.

Both Fleck and Johnson are evaluated by recency. Johnson's team got dramatically better this season. Fleck's team was substantially worse. One or two years of bad performance won't matter with Fleck because of the overall body of work. But three years of regression or stagnation could end his tenure.

Johnson stays as long as there is progress and no serious regression. Just a fact.

 

[Dakota2]

Hell No, I don't want him back.

We are currently ranked last in the Big 10 in recruiting this year.

If Garcia leaves, we will win about 5 games in the Big 10 next year.

I mean, seriously!

For next year we have two recruits for two spots that will open. If more spots open due to transfers we will have more to fill.

Anybody in the conference with three freshman coming in will rate higher than a team with two recruits unless one or both are five stars.

Next year's team has nothing to do with this recruiting class, with the possible exception that Asuma contributes a little. It has everything to do with adding talent through the portal.

 

[Dakota2]

What corner is being turned? Limping into the NIT in year 3 because a bunch of P6 teams opted out is turning the corner now? That's exactly the problem. Ben has lowered expectations so much that this once was considered a bad season but is now acceptable.

Pitino was better at MN then Ben has been. Pitino hasn't been much different at New Mexico than he was here. All of the excuses are bullshit.

Your comparison to Nebraska and Northwestern is exactly the problem. They are historically the worst programs in the conference, along with Rutgers and Penn St. So now we need to compare ourselves to them, instead of Iowa and Wisconsin who are a tier higher?

So you and others continue to defend that the Gophers have become the worst basketball program in the conference, and that you're ok with that. Some of us are not. There is no legitimate reason the Gophers should be this consistently bad at basketball.

Not currently the worst team in the conference. Finished 9-11, middle of the pack. Big jump from 2-18 and last place.

 

[Dakota2]

Citing Target Field as a new facility that helped its team win might not be the argument you think it is.

Nebraska is not Minnesota, and Hoiberg is not Johnson. Those are two very different people in two very different situations, one distinction being the levels of experience and known ability they possessed at the time they were hired.

You can't paper over that Johnson has been a downgrade from his predecessor. The U doesn't have to accept that and live with it if it doesn't want to.

If Johnson has a better first three year record than the Mayor, that actually looks pretty good given Fred's experience as a great player and good coach.

 

[Dakota2]

3 years is more than enough in basketball. You only need to find 6-7 players to make the NCAA tournament. We haven't been close to that yet, and it's never been easier to find those players in your first 3 years than it is today with the free transfer portal.

It's laughable that you think it's only been a small stretch that we've been better than NW and Nebraska. This is only the 8th time Nebraska will go to the NCAA tournament, and they have never won a game. This will only be the 3rd time Northwestern has gone to the tournament, ever. Penn St has only made it twice over the last 20 years.

Now you're saying we need to strive to be like Nebraska and Northwestern. Penn St's coach just replaced almost the entire roster and had a similar season in year 1 as what Ben had this year.

Thanks for making my point for me, again. Ben is the worst coach in the B1G, and has reduced our program to the worst in the B1G. It seems that several of you can't come to grips with that reality.

How can the worst coach in the Big Ten finish middle of the pack? Teams below us actually had better coaches even though winning less?

 

[bga1]

Not currently the worst team in the conference. Finished 9-11, middle of the pack. Big jump from 2-18 and last place.

That’s one way of looking at it. Let’s say I am out fishing with a guide and catching no fish- I’m getting skeptical if the guide says this is his first guiding gig. If in the other hand the guide comes highly recommended- I know that it’s not his fault- they just aren’t biting today.
That’s the perception issue Ben faces here. He’s just not had a track record of getting it done. That’s the position that the administration put him in and it was malpractice to do so.
So I understand both sides. That said if this poll was “do you think Ben will be back for a fourth year” it would be 90-10 - yes. So he’s going to be our coach and I am behind him, though I reserve the right to get disgusted during a game and fire him.

 

[Dakota2]

It feels very silly to even entertain the idea of switching coaches this off season.

Pending a mass exodus of players.

It's so silly that no one with any authority over coaches is entertaining the idea. Do not confuse Coyle with functional buffoons posting on a message board.

 

[Gophers7633]

How can the worst coach in the Big Ten finish middle of the pack? Teams below us actually had better coaches even though winning less?

Do you think Ben is better than Willard and Pikiell? Sure we had a better year(slightly), but they both have a track record of being much more successful.

 

[Some guy]

The only thing that matters to Coyle is now ... current. Current is we finished the season middle of the pack in the Big Ten. That is how you evaluate the current, actual state of the program.

If next year shows regression and the upward trend is broken, then it becomes prudent to evaluate over the entire tenure. When you are trending up you only care about the present.

And, if there is regression next year I will be the first one on the phone impersonating Coyle with a request to Dustin Kerns to come visit.

Coyle is bringing him back because he believes it will be better next year
Not because he isn’t sure what he thinks.
I happen to disagree with Coyle but I get why he is getting brought back. No chance he was getting fired after about mid January

 

[Some guy]

By the way, where is Nebraska in the Big Ten? Would you use this year's record to evaluate Fred or his five-year record?

See if you can spot any differences between Fred and Ben on their respective resumes

 

[Some guy]

Both Fleck and Johnson are evaluated by recency. Johnson's team got dramatically better this season. Fleck's team was substantially worse. One or two years of bad performance won't matter with Fleck because of the overall body of work. But three years of regression or stagnation could end his tenure.

Johnson stays as long as there is progress and no serious regression. Just a fact.

Who are you debating. I agree with what will happen.

Knowing that Johnson will stagnate, I would pull the plug now. But I was wrong this year. Hopefully I’ll be wrong next year too.

It would be more ideal if johnson was great. But I don’t think he is

 

[MNVCGUY]

Keep in mind that "dwelling on the negative" amounts to simply reciting his win/loss record, which is among the worst three-game stretches in program history, if not THE worst. It's not hard to connect the dots between that and his shocking lack of experience and ability when he was hired. Contrary so some narratives out there, this is not rocket science.

I'm resigned that he'll get run out there again for a fourth year of the dwindling number of years left in my life. Perhaps it's for the better: my aging heart might not be able to take the excitement and stress of contention and big games.

Again, this is working with the assumption that Ben is guaranteed to fail. We all get that he is learning on the job and the Big Ten level is not the ideal place for a coach to get their first head coaching gig.

But there is no going back now. He is 3 years in and year 3 showed some positive signs of things starting to move in the right direction. There are countless examples of coaches struggling early in their career before going on to be really successful. Whatever honeymoon period there was is over at this point. If things don't continue on an upward trajectory next season there is a very strong probability that we will be in the market for a new coach at this time next year. But you and others will just have to find a way to forgive those of us that refuse to give up now and are holding onto the hope that the tema continues to improve next year.

I honestly don't know how some of you do it. If I was having as little fun as some of you clearly are in following the team, I would find something else to do with my time.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

And this has been explained many times over and over to you. Pikiell's teams play defense, they always have and always will. BJ's team's still don't do anything well.

Chambers was not a good coach, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up. He coached 9 seasons, never went to the NCAA tournament, and went to the NIT once. This is the level you have to stoop to to defend BJ's incompetence and the state of the Gopher basketball program. Sad.

This isn't Johnson's 9th year. All of my comparisons are to the first three years of those coaches' tenures. What you're trying to do is compare those coaches' full and known Big Ten histories to a coach whose Big Ten history isn't completed yet.

"Pikiell's teams play defense, they always have and always will."

So what? He still didn't have an overall winning season in his first three years in the conference (Johnson at least had one). His team was one of the best defensive teams in the conference again this year but they finished 13th anyway.

 

[Dakota2]

That’s one way of looking at it. Let’s say I am out fishing with a guide and catching no fish- I’m getting skeptical if the guide says this is his first guiding gig. If in the other hand the guide comes highly recommended- I know that it’s not his fault- they just aren’t biting today.
That’s the perception issue Ben faces here. He’s just not had a track record of getting it done. That’s the position that the administration put him in and it was malpractice to do so.
So I understand both sides. That said if this poll was “do you think Ben will be back for a fourth year” it would be 90-10 - yes. So he’s going to be our coach and I am behind him, though I reserve the right to get disgusted during a game and fire him.

The fish story leaves us hanging .... did you catch anything with either guide? Was the experienced guide drunk that day?

I liken the whole situation more to a conversation overheard recently at the Whether household:

Mrs. Whether: I am so proud of our son-in-law for buying our daughter a new car. He is really starting to make something of himself.

Whether Guy: Balderdash, he's a complete failure. He could not afford to buy her a new car two years ago. She needs to divorce him immediately,

Mrs. Whether: Oh, don't be silly. They are doing much better today than last year or the year before.

Whether Guy: This year doesn't matter when you average it out. She needs to divorce him. He's terrible, a disaster in fact.

Mrs. Whether: Well, dear, we'll just file your opinion along with 38 years worth of always wrong forecasts.

Whether Guy: That's not fair. I need some time. I'm turning the corner .....

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

The fish story leaves us hanging .... did you catch anything with either guide? Was the experienced guide drunk that day?

I liken the whole situation more to a conversation overheard recently at the Whether household:

Mrs. Whether: I am so proud of our son-in-law for buying our daughter a new car. He is really starting to make something of himself.

Whether Guy: Balderdash, he's a complete failure. He could not afford to buy her a new car two years ago. She needs to divorce him immediately,

Mrs. Whether: Oh, don't be silly. They are doing much better today than last year or the year before.

Whether Guy: This year doesn't matter when you average it out. She needs to divorce him. He's terrible, a disaster in fact.

Mrs. Whether: Well, dear, we'll just file your opinion along with 38 years worth of always wrong forecasts.

Whether Guy: That's not fair. I need some time. I'm turning the corner .....

Elite Spelling

 

[Some guy]

Ben’s got his core and some juice going,
It would be a major mistake not to let him run it back unless we have a portal stampede out of town when the games end.

He isn’t getting fired even if that happened

 

[bga1]

Elite Spelling

He didn’t want to personalize it…