Do you want Ben back for a fourth year?

[GopherWeatherGuy]

How can the worst coach in the Big Ten finish middle of the pack? Teams below us actually had better coaches even though winning less?

Which of those teams finished below us the last two seasons? I said program, not just this year's team. Which B1G basketball program is currently worse than ours?

Middle of the pack is also ~7, not 9, especially when 9-11 all finished with the same record. Ken Pom has us ranked 11th out of 14. Add in the 4 Pac 12 teams that are joining next season, and we're ranked 13th of 18, and all 4 of those teams were down this season, much like the rest of the B1G.

When factoring in SOS, this was 5th worst Gopher team over the last 17 years. So congrats to BJ for having 3 of the worst 5 Gopher basketball teams over that time, all in his first 3 seasons. Pitino only had 2 worse than this one, and Tubby had none. Some accomplishment for sure.

But keep hyping up this below average season as something more than it is, just because it was better than the last 2 disastrous seasons.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Which of those teams finished below us the last two seasons? I said program, not just this year's team. Which B1G basketball program is currently worse than ours?

Middle of the pack is also ~7, not 9, especially when 9-11 all finished with the same record. Ken Pom has us ranked 11th out of 14. Add in the 4 Pac 12 teams that are joining next season, and we're ranked 13th of 18, and all 4 of those teams were down this season, much like the rest of the B1G.

When factoring in SOS, this was 5th worst Gopher team over the last 17 years. So congrats to BJ for having 3 of the worst 5 Gopher basketball teams over that time, all in his first 3 seasons. Pitino only had 2 worse than this one, and Tubby had none. Some accomplishment for sure.

But keep hyping up this below average season as something more than it is, just because it was better than the last 2 disastrous seasons.

Thanks, someone actually pulled some numbers and facts together in response to the question. These are alarming and will likely be used if a move is made after year 4 or 5. Big off season of development needed for the program.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I see the championing of Johnson in the local media as being two things:

• A contrarian, I-know-better-than-the-rube-fans take that establishes the contrarian as the smartest person in the room
• A dismissive fuck you to Gopher fans who are being conditioned to accept the false narrative that winning here is too hard, so we should just get used to it, and while you're at it, stop being sports fans to begin with and start going to the Guthrie, you Neanderthals

 

[Some guy]

I see the championing of Johnson in the local media as being two things:

• A contrarian, I-know-better-than-the-rube-fans take that establishes the contrarian as the smartest person in the room
• A dismissive fuck you to Gopher fans who are being conditioned to accept the false narrative that winning here is too hard, so we should just get used to it, and while you're at it, stop being sports fans to begin with and start going to the Guthrie, you Neanderthals

I don’t really see people championing johnson.

I see a lot of people saying that the improvement from 1-2 to 3 was good enough to give him another year. Which I think most people agree with. I don’t think next year is going to be any better than this year so I would rather cut ties now…but I said after the northwestern and Michigan state wins on Feb 6 that barring finishing 0fer he probably secured year 4 on Feb 6.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Keep in mind that "dwelling on the negative" amounts to simply reciting his win/loss record, which is among the worst three-game stretches in program history, if not THE worst. It's not hard to connect the dots between that and his shocking lack of experience and ability when he was hired. Contrary so some narratives out there, this is not rocket science.

I'm resigned that he'll get run out there again for a fourth year of the dwindling number of years left in my life. Perhaps it's for the better: my aging heart might not be able to take the excitement and stress of contention and big games.

+1

A good baseline goal for any hire should be that stating his/her record doesn't feel like an attack.

 

[GopherBlood777]

I see the main arguments for brining Ben back are that we were better this year and he should have the chance to see it through for at least next year. Also those that don't want another coaching change so early into his tenure. Does anyone think Ben Johnson is a good coach though? If so, what does he do well? I don't mind the roster construction, but don't believe he is able to get the most out of what he has. I'll give him a pass for being a bit thin even in year 3 but don't like how he uses the bench and I don't think more time will help as this is his stated philosophy for roster management. If MN is as destitute as some will believe, we will need a coach that can squeeze the most out of whatever available talent he is able to get. People want Ben fired because they believe he can't coach, not because they are impatient. We just held on to a guy who couldn't coach at this level for too long, why are we doing this again?

 

[MonikerSchmoniker45]

As a representative of that group, I'm curious your thoughts on how it has gone at Rutgers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pikiell#Head_coaching_record

Fire? Another year?

Rutgers has the #2 and #3 rated recruits coming in next year. I don't think they'll mess with that.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

2027!

 

[MonikerSchmoniker45]

I see the main arguments for brining Ben back are that we were better this year and he should have the chance to see it through for at least next year. Also those that don't want another coaching change so early into his tenure. Does anyone think Ben Johnson is a good coach though? If so, what does he do well? I don't mind the roster construction, but don't believe he is able to get the most out of what he has. I'll give him a pass for being a bit thin even in year 3 but don't like how he uses the bench and I don't think more time will help as this is his stated philosophy for roster management. If MN is as destitute as some will believe, we will need a coach that can squeeze the most out of whatever available talent he is able to get. People want Ben fired because they believe he can't coach, not because they are impatient. We just held on to a guy who couldn't coach at this level for too long, why are we doing this again?

I think CBJ knows basketball. I do have concerns about his personality and not being able to hit that emotional nerve that gets the guys going.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

I see the main arguments for brining Ben back are that we were better this year and he should have the chance to see it through for at least next year. Also those that don't want another coaching change so early into his tenure. Does anyone think Ben Johnson is a good coach though? If so, what does he do well? I don't mind the roster construction, but don't believe he is able to get the most out of what he has. I'll give him a pass for being a bit thin even in year 3 but don't like how he uses the bench and I don't think more time will help as this is his stated philosophy for roster management. If MN is as destitute as some will believe, we will need a coach that can squeeze the most out of whatever available talent he is able to get. People want Ben fired because they believe he can't coach, not because they are impatient. We just held on to a guy who couldn't coach at this level for too long, why are we doing this again?

What record did you expect them to have going into the year and how many did they end up with? For not being able to get the most out of his talent, how did the team win 9 games (including some close losses and close wins) for a team you projected to be awful?

 

[GopherBlood777]

What record did you expect them to have going into the year and how many did they end up with? For not being able to get the most out of his talent, how did the team win 9 games (including some close losses and close wins) for a team you projected to be awful?

I projected 6 conference wins before they played any games this year. Not much to base that on except the 2 prior years which were 90% completely terrible, so predicting 6 at that time was borderline optimistic. They lost the only 2 non-con games that mattered this season and went 0-3 against Iowa/Wisconsin. I believe a better coach with the same roster has better results. Getting 9 conference was better than I expected, no doubts there. As I mentioned though, I don't have much of a problem with the players he has gotten, and at times they did play really well. I just don't feel his in-game coaching skills are going to be good enough to sustain any success, just like Pitino. The team struggles to stay disciplined on a consistent basis. I was genuinely looking for feedback on what everyone thinks he does well. Just citing an improvement in wins when Ben set the low bar the season previously isn't a very compelling argument. Do you feel that the outcome this year was as good as it possibly could have been?

 

[Johnnyboy18]

I projected 6 conference wins before they played any games this year. Not much to base that on except the 2 prior years which were 90% completely terrible, so predicting 6 at that time was borderline optimistic. They lost the only 2 non-con games that mattered this season and went 0-3 against Iowa/Wisconsin. I believe a better coach with the same roster has better results. Getting 9 conference was better than I expected, no doubts there. As I mentioned though, I don't have much of a problem with the players he has gotten, and at times they did play really well. I just don't feel his in-game coaching skills are going to be good enough to sustain any success, just like Pitino. The team struggles to stay disciplined on a consistent basis. I was genuinely looking for feedback on what everyone thinks he does well. Just citing an improvement in wins when Ben set the low bar the season previously isn't a very compelling argument. Do you feel that the outcome this year was as good as it possibly could have been?

Yeah it probably was the max outcome for the makeup of the current squad. They had limited depth and struggled to guard teams with bigger lineups. They lost a few games they should have won but they also won some they should have lost. For an average B1G team that makes sense.

In game coaching is the least of my concern with Ben. Needs to continue getting better players. The ceiling for the team was about where they finished and much better than you and the others bitching predicted based on the knowledge of the team and players preseason.

 

[Dakota2]

Do you think Ben is better than Willard and Pikiell? Sure we had a better year(slightly), but they both have a track record of being much more successful.

Ben had a better team this year. Does that make him a worse coach?

 

[Dakota2]

See if you can spot any differences between Fred and Ben on their respective resumes

I can indeed spot a difference in the record of each coach's first three seasons in the Big Ten.

 

[Dakota2]

Who are you debating. I agree with what will happen.

Knowing that Johnson will stagnate, I would pull the plug now. But I was wrong this year. Hopefully I’ll be wrong next year too.

It would be more ideal if johnson was great. But I don’t think he is

Not debating anyone. Pointing out that no AD in America would fire a coach who went from two conference wins to nine.

 

[Dakota2]

He didn’t want to personalize it…

Maybe that drifted over the ranger's noggin.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

If there is a change in The HC this season we can count on gaardsy saying he had heard rumors.

 

[Dakota2]

Which of those teams finished below us the last two seasons? I said program, not just this year's team. Which B1G basketball program is currently worse than ours?

Middle of the pack is also ~7, not 9, especially when 9-11 all finished with the same record. Ken Pom has us ranked 11th out of 14. Add in the 4 Pac 12 teams that are joining next season, and we're ranked 13th of 18, and all 4 of those teams were down this season, much like the rest of the B1G.

When factoring in SOS, this was 5th worst Gopher team over the last 17 years. So congrats to BJ for having 3 of the worst 5 Gopher basketball teams over that time, all in his first 3 seasons. Pitino only had 2 worse than this one, and Tubby had none. Some accomplishment for sure.

But keep hyping up this below average season as something more than it is, just because it was better than the last 2 disastrous seasons.

Program means the history of each school's basketball. Go ahead, let us know where all the conference schools rank as programs.

I am not interested in games two years ago or last year. I am interested in what we did this season and what will come next season. Nothing else matters.

I suspect most fans feel the same. Like if you are on the golf course with shorts because the whetherman said it would be sunny and 80 and it turns out to be raining and 55, I don't care weather he was right or wrong once three years ago or not.

But I'll whether the storn so NY ranger can howl.

 

[Some guy]

Not debating anyone. Pointing out that no AD in America would fire a coach who went from two conference wins to nine.

That doesn’t make it the right decision to keep him

When they fire him next year it means it should’ve happened this week

 

[GopherBlood777]

Yeah it probably was the max outcome for the makeup of the current squad. They had limited depth and struggled to guard teams with bigger lineups. They lost a few games they should have won but they also won some they should have lost. For an average B1G team that makes sense.

In game coaching is the least of my concern with Ben. Needs to continue getting better players. The ceiling for the team was about where they finished and much better than you and the others bitching predicted based on the knowledge of the team and players preseason.

My prediction was largely based on Ben moreso than the players on the team. I like the roster with the exception of Wilson. Backup center was a glaring weakness. Depth was not a weakness otherwise in my opinion. I believe a more skilled coach could have found ways to better distribute minutes leading to better results down the stretch.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

That doesn’t make it the right decision to keep him

When they fire him next year it means it should’ve happened this week

Do you want to bet he doesn't get fired next year? I already won money off one of you bozos this year I'd love to win some more!

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

If MN is as destitute as some will believe, we will need a coach that can squeeze the most out of whatever available talent he is able to get.

Should we put that in the job description?

I think Johnson did a fair job of getting good performances out of the talent he had (the starters and Fox anyway) but he was at least a good player or two short as usual. I think this excerpt from a Big Ten Basketball power ranking published 8 days ago says it all:

It's been tough sledding for the Golden Gophers down the stretch. Minnesota has lost four of its last five games, losing three of those contests by double digits. Minnesota is a much-improved team from a season ago, but it still lacks the necessary depth to get through a grueling Big Ten season.

The teams we played at the end of the conference season knew that and threw 10 guys at us to wear us down and keep their best players fresher.

I think Johnson needs to understand that if he thinks he has 9 capable Big Ten caliber players, he really only has 7 and, if one of them is hurt or has other issues, he only has 6. So, he must recruit (at least from the portal) doggedly until he has 11 players who fit that description (at least for 10-20 minutes per game). Do that and maybe he'll end up with 8 or 9 good ones.

As far as the importance of coaching, I certainly don't dismiss it but a coach, boss, teacher, etc. will always look better if their subordinates are better. One of my favorite quotes on coaching was given by the venerable Dean Smith while reflecting back on his career with his characteristic modesty:

"I'd call a timeout and diagram a play. Now, whether the ball went in the basket or not, well, that's where recruiting came in."

 

[leib0039]

I see no one actually answered "what does CBJ do well as a coach"

Any thoughts??

This year we ended 49th in off 128th in def per ken pom. Solid offense. Gross defense.

I liked our offensive splits 55/35/70 isn't awful shooting. Assist totals good. I do think we benefitted on some of these from a putrid NC schedule but regardless.

Defensively I just don't know what to think, we're supposed to have this guru on the bench and CBJ is this tough gritty guy. Yet we look most games like a 5th grade team could score at will on us. I thought he did a poor job on that end this year. Teams killed us from 3 and on the boards. I think that is a reflection on coaching.

Recruiting wise he got some nice pieces but we have 9th place talent I think. The portal needs to hit fairly big I think this spring. My other big issue is I don't see guys getting drastically better. Payne certainly improved but I think that was having Hawkins vs Cooper. But joj regressed. Carrington regressed. We might need an amber alert for Betts.

Overall I just don't see what he does that makes anyone think this is going to take a sharp turn in the positive direction. And I don't mean barely making the NIT. I mean actually good like a WI or Iowa has been.

I wish I could be exuberant over CBJ I'm just not. He's the coach so I hope he wins but I just am not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Gophers7633]

Ben had a better team this year. Does that make him a worse coach?

I mean, I'd say yes. Those other guys have had far greater success than Ben despite the results of this one season. And it's debatable we were even better than MD to begin with, despite having a couple more Big Ten wins than them.

Do you think Greg Gard is a better coach than Izzo?

 

[Johnnyboy18]

I mean, I'd say yes. Those other guys have had far greater success than Ben despite the results of this one season. And it's debatable we were even better than MD to begin with, despite having a couple more Big Ten wins than them.

Do you think Greg Gard is a better coach than Izzo?

Coach? Absolutely. Izzo and Gard don't have similar talent but one finishes above the others most years. Izzo finishing 10-10 and on the bubble is embarrassing.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

When they fire him next year it means it should’ve happened this week

That's an incredibly stupid thought even for you.

I guess Coyle should tell prospective coaching candidates that in the job interview. "If I think that you'll fail in the future, I will fire you in the present."

 

[Big Dawg]

Which MBB coaches would even qualify?? I'm thinking realistically, none?

Even going back to Dutcher, it looks like he really just had one really good seasons 81-82 with a bunch of OK seasons around it and then fell off at the end. Haskins also appears to have had one really good season, with a bunch of 10-8 conference records otherwise.

Monson, don't know why he wasn't fired after 2003-04. Doesn't look like he did much here. Tubby, best conf record here was 9-9. Pitino best was 11-7 conf one year.


So it begs the question: do you think that say a couple seasons in a row of 15+ conf wins is just impossible here? Or are you saying that you think the ideal thing here would be a coach that wins enough to satisfy fans, but not enough to get on the radar of major programs? Is that slice possible?

I'm saying that I would love to have the first world problem of multiple top 2-3 finishes in the BIG and be such a hot team/program that every P6 team in the land would try and steal our coach. I dream of that scenario.

 

[Gophers7633]

Coach? Absolutely. Izzo and Gard don't have similar talent but one finishes above the others most years. Izzo finishing 10-10 and on the bubble is embarrassing.

Yeah, obviously this wasn't a great year for MSU. But he's finished top 3 in the conference in 59% of his seasons as opposed to 39% for Gard. And coaches are responsible for bringing in the talent.

 

[Some guy]

That's an incredibly stupid thought even for you.

I guess Coyle should tell prospective coaching candidates that in the job interview. "If I think that you'll fail in the future, I will fire you in the present."

That is literally what AD’s are paid to decide
Are you serious with this post?

You don’t think what ADs project to happen in the future plays into firing and hiring?

 

[Some guy]

Do you want to bet he doesn't get fired next year? I already won money off one of you bozos this year I'd love to win some more!

No. I don’t want to bet with you. I hope you’re right and our coach doesn’t get fired