Did the Gophers improve their backcourt this offseason?

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eker0016 said:
Man, you don't need to cherry pick in this way to make Ben sound bad. Why'd you give us FG% and turnovers, but not include 3P or assists?? His tenure has been a disaster, but you come off as disingenuous when you make omissions like this. ParticuIarly when Hawkins/Mitchell ran point for their teams. I put their numbers into your post in bold.

Mike Mitchell - 44.0% 3PT, 5.0 AST at Pepperdine
Elijah Hawkins - 46.6% 3PT, 6.0 AST at Howard

The weakness of that first team was roster construction: all three of those guys were combo guards but no true point guards and they had absolutely zero frontcourt help. To the point we pulled a graduate assistant out of retirement to be our starter.

Funny thing is Willis actually improved his scoring moving up from College of Charleston, and Stephens improved his 3PT to a career best 38.7%.

This team looks like it could be both Ben's most talented as well as the first time that he has had a roster that fits well together.
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Cherry pick? I used the same stats that was used to start this thread as a 1-1 comparison. You’re the one trying to cherry pick.

This team is still horribly constructed, they literally don’t have a 3. It may be his most talented team, but it’s still the least talented team in the B1G.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Not only that, but how does this backcourt compare to Ben's first season? Nearly anything is an upgrade over last season's backcourt, which was likely the worst in Gopher basketball history.

It's amazing how far we've come from when everyone was complaining about the lack of talent on Ben's first squad, some thinking it was the worst Gopher team ever assembled before the season started. But it was better than last season's, and that backcourt had:

Luke Loewe - 16.2p, 3.2a, 43.6 FG%, 1.5 TOs at William & Mary
EJ Stephens - 16.4p, 2.5a, 45.5 FG%, 2.1 TOs at Lafayette
Peyton Willis - 13.4p, 3.4a, 46 FG%, 1.5 TOs at College of Charleston

Now we're celebrating bringing 2 guys who put up worse scoring numbers and higher TO numbers at Pepperdine and Howard, when this team desperately needs scoring? Ben's 1st backcourt still wasn't good, and this one is not nearly as good as that one was.
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Be careful about using evidence and logic on this board.
 

We had a historically bad backcourt last year. If we have to think about it, that's not good! On paper, the two new guys seem to hit open 3's and free throws.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Cherry pick? I used the same stats that was used to start this thread as a 1-1 comparison. You’re the one trying to cherry pick.

This team is still horribly constructed, they literally don’t have a 3. It may be his most talented team, but it’s still the least talented team in the B1G.
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I asked in another thread "what does a 3 look like?". To me, 3's can and do come in all different shapes and sizes. I think we may see the following line ups: Any combo of Mitchell/Hawkins/Carrington/Christie at the 1/2/3. Any combo of Mitchell/Hawkins/Carrington/Christie at the 1/2 with and combo of Betts/Ihnen/JoJ at the 3. Someone mentioned Henley as the closest we had last season. Shooter, slasher active and ok ball handler. Ben will have choices. Battle was our 3 in 222/23 and his stats weren't good.
 

Big Dawg said:
I asked in another thread "what does a 3 look like?". To me, 3's can and do come in all different shapes and sizes. I think we may see the following line ups: Any combo of Mitchell/Hawkins/Carrington/Christie at the 1/2/3. Any combo of Mitchell/Hawkins/Carrington/Christie at the 1/2 with and combo of Betts/Ihnen/JoJ at the 3. Someone mentioned Henley as the closest we had last season. Shooter, slasher active and ok ball handler. Ben will have choices. Battle was our 3 in 222/23 and his stats weren't good.
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I’m college basketball, a 3 can just be the exact same thing as a 2. If you’re fortunate enough to have a guy with the skills of a 2 but some size, go ahead and call him a 3/SF. If not, just put another guard there.

We need another wing, if he had size, great, if not, that’s okay too.

To answer the original question, yes, our backcourt is better than last year.
 


Big Dawg said:
I asked in another thread "what does a 3 look like?". To me, 3's can and do come in all different shapes and sizes. I think we may see the following line ups: Any combo of Mitchell/Hawkins/Carrington/Christie at the 1/2/3. Any combo of Mitchell/Hawkins/Carrington/Christie at the 1/2 with and combo of Betts/Ihnen/JoJ at the 3. Someone mentioned Henley as the closest we had last season. Shooter, slasher active and ok ball handler. Ben will have choices. Battle was our 3 in 222/23 and his stats weren't good.
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Battle was our 2nd best player last year. He won us games. He's more of a 3 than anyone on this roster. Betts, JOJ, Ihnen are not 3s. People expecting so much out of Betts this season are insane.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Battle was our 2nd best player last year. He won us games. He's more of a 3 than anyone on this roster. Betts, JOJ, Ihnen are not 3s. People expecting so much out of Betts this season are insane.
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Battle was our second best player- though he didn't play like it- being the least efficient of the crew. He is not a good 3. Defense is part of the game as well. Battle would be a good stretch 4, but Garcia was better at that slot.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Cherry pick? I used the same stats that was used to start this thread as a 1-1 comparison. You’re the one trying to cherry pick.

This team is still horribly constructed, they literally don’t have a 3. It may be his most talented team, but it’s still the least talented team in the B1G.
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You are literally wrong. They have a number of 3s. They just aren't proven yet. The team could use one more guard but is now pretty well balanced.
 

bga1 said:
You are literally wrong. They have a number of 3s. They just aren't proven yet. The team could use one more guard but is now pretty well balanced.
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No they don't. Other B1G 3s will take whoever we put there to the woodshed.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Battle was our 2nd best player last year. He won us games. He's more of a 3 than anyone on this roster. Betts, JOJ, Ihnen are not 3s. People expecting so much out of Betts this season are insane.
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How can you say with absolute certainty that we won't get quality production out of Betts? I get that you are extremely down on anything and everything Gopher basketball but good lord man at least let the team take the court before completely throwing in the towel.

Last two years have sucked but this is going to be a very different team then the one that played last year. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but at this point none of us knows exactly what all the new faces are going to bring to the table.
 

MNVCGUY said:
How can you say with absolute certainty that we won't get quality production out of Betts? I get that you are extremely down on anything and everything Gopher basketball but good lord man at least let the team take the court before completely throwing in the towel.

Last two years have sucked but this is going to be a very different team then the one that played last year. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but at this point none of us knows exactly what all the new faces are going to bring to the table.
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I always thought pretty highly of GWG and Loblaw until now. They are totally lost in the most negative way.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Not only that, but how does this backcourt compare to Ben's first season? Nearly anything is an upgrade over last season's backcourt, which was likely the worst in Gopher basketball history.

It's amazing how far we've come from when everyone was complaining about the lack of talent on Ben's first squad, some thinking it was the worst Gopher team ever assembled before the season started. But it was better than last season's, and that backcourt had:

Luke Loewe - 16.2p, 3.2a, 43.6 FG%, 1.5 TOs at William & Mary
EJ Stephens - 16.4p, 2.5a, 45.5 FG%, 2.1 TOs at Lafayette
Peyton Willis - 13.4p, 3.4a, 46 FG%, 1.5 TOs at College of Charleston

Now we're celebrating bringing 2 guys who put up worse scoring numbers and higher TO numbers at Pepperdine and Howard, when this team desperately needs scoring? Ben's 1st backcourt still wasn't good, and this one is not nearly as good as that one was.
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1. You left off assists per game and 3 pt shooting...wonder why? Oh right, those numbers would've tanked your argument. Our two guard signing are both true point guards; Loewe/Stephens/Willis were all combo guards.

2. How good would that team have been with Garcia and Payne in the front court?
 

MNVCGUY said:
How can you say with absolute certainty that we won't get quality production out of Betts? I get that you are extremely down on anything and everything Gopher basketball but good lord man at least let the team take the court before completely throwing in the towel.

Last two years have sucked but this is going to be a very different team then the one that played last year. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but at this point none of us knows exactly what all the new faces are going to bring to the table.
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Because Betts is still essentially a true college freshman. He's a developmental player. I used Race T yesterday as his closest example, yet he was a higher rated player with much better offers, and he did very little his first two seasons after skipping his HS SR season and redshirting. It's very rare for a basketball player to redshirt in general, and the ones who do take awhile to contribute.

This is not that much of a different team than last year. The players on the roster are very similar, sadly. That's why I'm down. I'm sorry you and others can't handle reality.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Cherry pick? I used the same stats that was used to start this thread as a 1-1 comparison. You’re the one trying to cherry pick.

This team is still horribly constructed, they literally don’t have a 3. It may be his most talented team, but it’s still the least talented team in the B1G.
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Fair enough -- I didn't realize you had copied the same numbers as Tony's tweet, I had clicked through to the 2nd page. Him comparing Mitchell/Hawkins' numbers at low/mid majors to B10 numbers doesn't make any sense. My mistake.

So let's not compound the mistake by using Tony's framing. Do you agree it makes more sense to look at eFG%? And that players that are more efficient at shooting and get a lot more assists can increase scoring as well?

I would have loved to get a Sean Bairstow or for Henley to stick around who seems a more natural "3" but I think we have a few options to try there and I'm curious what Ben does. Battle's main attribute was supposed to be his scoring, which he didn't do well last year. I hope we get better defense, penetration, and ball movement from that position.
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
1. You left off assists per game and 3 pt shooting...wonder why? Oh right, those numbers would've tanked your argument. Our two guard signing are both true point guards; Loewe/Stephens/Willis were all combo guards.

2. How good would that team have been with Garcia and Payne in the front court?
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Look again. What does the second number say? Leibert left off 3 pt shooting in the OP, I just did what he did. So what if Loewe, Stephens, and Willis, were slightly lower 3 point shooters than these two? They could still hit 3s, and they still scored more points per game, meaning they were better at getting buckets in other ways.

2. That team also had Battle's 17 ppg, basically canceling out Garcia. Curry's numbers were basically the same as Payne's last year. But the guards on this team are still nowhere near as good as that one, and they still finished last.
 

MNVCGUY said:
How can you say with absolute certainty that we won't get quality production out of Betts? I get that you are extremely down on anything and everything Gopher basketball but good lord man at least let the team take the court before completely throwing in the towel.

Last two years have sucked but this is going to be a very different team then the one that played last year. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but at this point none of us knows exactly what all the new faces are going to bring to the table.
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There's just no precedence of someone rated where he was to be a significant contributor, on a winning team. For reference these were the guys that were ranked in the exact same spot as Betts was(#233). And what they did their FR year.

2021 - Sean Durugordon: avg 3 ppg at Missouri, has since transferred to Austin Peay
2020 - Mike Saunders: avg 3.5 ppg at Cincy, has since transferred to Utah
2019 - Devan Cambridge: avg 4.2 ppg at Auburn, has since transferred to ASU
2018 - Rashane Duncan - never played D1
2017 - Cooper Neese: avg 8.2 ppg at Indiana State

I don't know what Betts will do as a FR, but if he avg more than 5 ppg, I'd be surprised. He shouldn't be counted on to play significant minutes. Much like with Carrington and Henley last year, if he's playing a lot we're in some trouble. It's not meant to knock him, but there's a reason he was rated where he was, and based on history, guys like him take time to contribute.
 

eker0016 said:
Fair enough -- I didn't realize you had copied the same numbers as Tony's tweet, I had clicked through to the 2nd page. Him comparing Mitchell/Hawkins' numbers at low/mid majors to B10 numbers doesn't make any sense. My mistake.

So let's not compound the mistake by using Tony's framing. Do you agree it makes more sense to look at eFG%? And that players that are more efficient at shooting and get a lot more assists can increase scoring as well?

I would have loved to get a Sean Bairstow or for Henley to stick around who seems a more natural "3" but I think we have a few options to try there and I'm curious what Ben does. Battle's main attribute was supposed to be his scoring, which he didn't do well last year. I hope we get better defense, penetration, and ball movement from that position.
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I agree on Bairstow/Henley. I don't have an issue with eFG%, but like all advanced stats, it's just another data point and not an end all to be all. If it was, then Will Ramberg should have been playing 30 min per game last season. Players like he and JOJ can be efficient at getting buckets, but struggle with the rest of their game.
 

Gophers7633 said:
There's just no precedence of someone rated where he was to be a significant contributor, on a winning team. For reference these were the guys that were ranked in the exact same spot as Betts was(#233). And what they did their FR year.

2021 - Sean Durugordon: avg 3 ppg at Missouri, has since transferred to Austin Peay
2020 - Mike Saunders: avg 3.5 ppg at Cincy, has since transferred to Utah
2019 - Devan Cambridge: avg 4.2 ppg at Auburn, has since transferred to ASU
2018 - Rashane Duncan - never played D1
2017 - Cooper Neese: avg 8.2 ppg at Indiana State

I don't know what Betts will do as a FR, but if he avg more than 5 ppg, I'd be surprised. He shouldn't be counted on to play significant minutes. Much like with Carrington and Henley last year, if he's playing a lot we're in some trouble. It's not meant to knock him, but there's a reason he was rated where he was, and based on history, guys like him take time to contribute.
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Betts was rated #87 as a junior in HS. He has a full year with the team. Everything you say is terribly biased and negative.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
This is not that much of a different team than last year. The players on the roster are very similar, sadly. That's why I'm down. I'm sorry you and others can't handle reality.
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I love how the negative crowd leans so hard into the term reality and pretends like the rest of us are living in some fantasy world where everything is perfect with the program simply because we are willing to have a little hope that things come together while understanding full well that if they don't we are almost certainly looking for a new coach after this season.

If healthy this is a very different team than last year. We have 2 true point guards on the roster. 3 sophomores who saw a ton of playing time and have had another off season to develop, 2 guys coming off injuries that can hopefully be at minimum part of the rotation, a very solid player in Garcia and a couple wild cards in Christie and Betts.

Last year had one true ball handler, 4 true freshman getting their first taste of college action, a thin front court due to injuries, and it took Garcia a while to really settle in and start playing well. On top of that the one guy we were all hoping would be a key player was injured to start the year and outside of a few games had a really rough year across the board.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Because Betts is still essentially a true college freshman. He's a developmental player. I used Race T yesterday as his closest example, yet he was a higher rated player with much better offers, and he did very little his first two seasons after skipping his HS SR season and redshirting. It's very rare for a basketball player to redshirt in general, and the ones who do take awhile to contribute.

This is not that much of a different team than last year. The players on the roster are very similar, sadly. That's why I'm down. I'm sorry you and others can't handle reality.
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Race & Betts are completely different players. Betts is closer to a 3 then Race ever was. Race plays closer to a 5 than a 3
 


Rockraven said:
Betts was rated #87 as a junior in HS. He has a full year with the team. Everything you say is terribly biased and negative.
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I remember hearing this. The only reason he was ranked 233 is because he moved up a class.

I would think Betts should be ready to contribute. Will he be a star? Likely not at this point but I'd expect to see him contributing.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Race & Betts are completely different players. Betts is closer to a 3 then Race ever was. Race plays closer to a 5 than a 3
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I don't disagree with that but Race's development was slow, and Betts will be the same. I still think Betts is a stretch 4 long term, and size wise he's very similar to what Race was coming out of HS. @Gophers7633 did a nice job of outlining other similar players. Betts should not be counted on to play much this season.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Because Betts is still essentially a true college freshman. He's a developmental player. I used Race T yesterday as his closest example, yet he was a higher rated player with much better offers, and he did very little his first two seasons after skipping his HS SR season and redshirting. It's very rare for a basketball player to redshirt in general, and the ones who do take awhile to contribute.

This is not that much of a different team than last year. The players on the roster are very similar, sadly. That's why I'm down. I'm sorry you and others can't handle reality.
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I don't get the talk about the 3 position. That may the most flexible position in college basketball. Teams play 3 guard lineups, 2 small guards and a tall wing, a pg and 2 tall wings, and some teams even play stretch 4s at the 3.

The teams who played in the big ten championship game started 3s similar to Carrington and Christie. I think people are overthinking this. Our problem is our 3 position its our overloaded frontcourt with not enough backcourt depth.

Penn State started 6'4 Myles Dread at the 3
Purdue Started 6'5 170 lbs Fletcher Loyer at the 3
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I don't disagree with that but Race's development was slow, and Betts will be the same. I still think Betts is a stretch 4 long term, and size wise he's very similar to what Race was coming out of HS. @Gophers7633 did a nice job of outlining other similar players. Betts should not be counted on to play much this season.
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The only similar thing about those players is that they were ranked #233 in their class so using them as direct comparisons to Betts is pretty flawed right from the get go. Not to mention he was rated significantly higher than that before he reclassified to bypass his senior year.

There is no guarantee Betts will be ready to contribute this year and he almost certainly won't be a finished product. But until we actually see him on the court there is simply no way to know for sure what he is going to bring to the table.

Relying on freshman to be the stars on your team is a dangerous proposition. Relying on freshman to be contributors isn't nearly as dangerous and happens all the time. Betts will be the age of a typical true freshman but he should be way ahead of the typical true freshman due to already having a full year in the system under his belt.
 


GopherPlaya said:
Race & Betts are completely different players. Betts is closer to a 3 then Race ever was. Race plays closer to a 5 than a 3
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He wasn't comparing them as players, simply where they were ranked out of high school. And Race was rated much higher, and didn't contribute much as a FR. At least that's how I took it.
 


GopherPlaya said:
I don't get the talk about the 3 position. That may the most flexible position in college basketball. Teams play 3 guard lineups, 2 small guards and a tall wing, a pg and 2 tall wings, and some teams even play stretch 4s at the 3.

The teams who played in the big ten championship game started 3s similar to Carrington and Christie. I think people are overthinking this. Our problem is our 3 position its our overloaded frontcourt with not enough backcourt depth.

Penn State started 6'4 Myles Dread at the 3
Purdue Started 6'5 170 lbs Fletcher Loyer at the 3
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I don't disagree with you on this either, but depth and youth is still a huge issue. From what I've seen, Christie can shoot but that's about it. He played very little D in HS. I'll give Carrington somewhat of a pass for being injured last season, and I thought he would be decent on defense but he wasn't. He was awful on D.

Could they go Mitchell, Carrington, and Christie? Sure. But how is that much different than Cooper, Carrington, and Henley? It's not, except for Henley could play some defense. How does that make this years roster better?

Hawkins is a low level guard and should be the backup PG. He's better than Samuels but that's not saying much. Besides him they have no depth at the 2 or 3.

Penn St basically played 5 guards the majority of the minutes last year. I don't have a problem with a guard heavy lineup, but they better be good guards. Ours still have a very long ways to go.
 

Gophers7633 said:
He wasn't comparing them as players, simply where they were ranked out of high school. And Race was rated much higher, and didn't contribute much as a FR.
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But you can't compare them based on ranking. I would bet a player like Evans wouldn't be comparable to a guard or wing at the same rankings.
 

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