Defensive Concerns

[leib0039]

We lost multiple NFL players from that defense, and we are not Bama/Clem/OSU who can just plug all of our holes every year, so it will take time.

And I will say I think as amazing as Winfield was, I actually think Saturday shows he may have actually been under rated! The guy just made the plays you need to save the defense. Sometimes that was a INT, sometimes a TFL, but even something as mundane and stopping a guy for a 5 yard not 11 yard gain. Having THAT GUY as a safety covered up what could have been a ton of issues in our defense last year.

 

[MplsGopher]

2016 class was:
Carter Coughlin
Kamal Martin
Kiondre Thomas
Winfield

Defensive Lineman from 2016
Merrick Jackson
Tai'yon Devers
Tamarion Johnson

2017 - D-Line:
Malcolm Robinson
Royal Silver
Boye Mafe
Esezi Otomewo
Noah Hickcox
Austin Schrick

Also Barber in the 2016 class. We'd all take him as a RS Senior this year, in a nanosecond.

https://247sports.com/college/minnesota/Season/2016-Football/Commits/
https://247sports.com/college/minnesota/Season/2017-Football/Commits/

Jackson and Silver as JUCOs obviously wouldn't be here.

Obviously Mafe and Oto are starters, and have worked out. Devers was a flash in the pan as a true freshman, but did contribute for four years at end. Johnson left right away, at Marshall now.

Schrick was a 2* who barely was on the team before moving on. So boils down to Robinson and Hickcox being busts. And again you can argue Dew and Schad are effective replacements.

 

[Polski]

Quick thoughts after getting a chance to go back and watch the game again....

Lindenburg is going to be a good one folks. He triggered fast, was decisive in his reads, showed enough burst to make plays, and will only continue to get better as he gains strength and experience. Was shocked to see a true freshman was in our starting lineup on the first series, but I can see why.

MSM is simply who he is. Defensive leader. Probably a very smart kid with leadership qualities, but he is simply limited with his foot speed, and struggles mightily in shedding blockers. Not sure why he is on the kickoff team. ??? What sense does that make???

Wasn't the best game for Nubin. Was slow to react often, and missed reads in the secondary. He certainly had the pub coming into the program. Hoping with experience it gets better.

Mafe should be on the field more. He can be an impact player. No reason to just use him situationally for pass rush situations.

Wasn't the best night by any means, but there's room to grow and learn.

 

[Dano564]

It's tough because we're going from having guys like Howden and MSM going from learning from a veteran to being the leader over the off-season.

They both are probably capable and will get there, but for game 1 against Michigan, issues were apparent and communication was part of it.

 

[GopherDog1]

It's tough because we're going from having guys like Howden and MSM going from learning from a veteran to being the leader over the off-season.

They both are probably capable and will get there, but for game 1 against Michigan, issues were apparent and communication was part of it.

I said this in another thread but how can any team replicate that speed in practice with a scout team. Had to be shocking, at least the Blue Bloods of the football world can be ready for an opener like that with a bench stacked with speedy players even if they are young. The bad angles and other tackling/blocking issues might be from practicing against our scout team; probably not the fastest guys on the team.

 

[MNVCGUY]

We lost multiple NFL players from that defense, and we are not Bama/Clem/OSU who can just plug all of our holes every year, so it will take time.

And I will say I think as amazing as Winfield was, I actually think Saturday shows he may have actually been under rated! The guy just made the plays you need to save the defense. Sometimes that was a INT, sometimes a TFL, but even something as mundane and stopping a guy for a 5 yard not 11 yard gain. Having THAT GUY as a safety covered up what could have been a ton of issues in our defense last year.

Well said. The other aspect is the confidence the players in front of him have knowing that he is back there and will almost always be in position to make a play because he just sees things better than 99% of the other players out there. He was a special talent, we are seeing it on Sundays right now, and it is dang shame we got cheated out of nearly 2 years of his time here due to injury.

The new guys will get experience and they will make adjustments to cover for the loss of Winfield. Will be very interesting to see how the defense evolves against some weaker competition over the next few weeks. If the offense can build some decent leads that will help to take off a lot of the pressure as well.

It is dangerous to make any assumptions about a season after game 1 and that is especially true this year coming off a really messed up off season as well. The defense is going to have to play a lot better than they did against Michigan but I have confidence that Rossi and the staff will figure out the best way to use guys and put them in better positions for success in future weeks.

 

[MGGopher]

Just listened to the GG podcast with Burns and there were a few interesting nuggets about the D:

• At least 60% of what Michigan did on O was totally unexpected (and Fleck apparently alluded to this in his presser). MN had a hard time adjusting with youngish players needing to make pre and post-snap reads they didn't practice.
• In general, the defensive scheme seemed complicated and will likely be greatly simplified moving forward. Players were tentative in reacting, making run fits, and taking angles of pursuit.
• LB Gordon is recovering from COVID (they said "dealing with COVID-related issues") and working to get back into shape.
• Fleck recruited 3 safeties early in his tenure here who are no longer with the program -- and it's starting to hurt now. They named Handy-Holly and 2 others who would've been 3rd or 4th years now.

 

[PMWinSTP]

It's tough because we're going from having guys like Howden and MSM going from learning from a veteran to being the leader over the off-season.

They both are probably capable and will get there, but for game 1 against Michigan, issues were apparent and communication was part of it.

As Fleck has said, it's now a player led team. They will figure it out or they won't. I'm going with the former until there is a bigger sample size of on-field performance to change my mind. They have had a couple days of time in the film room already and I bet they have learned a lot.

As for the coaches, it it their responsibility to ID what teams are doing differently and make the needed in game adjustments. Fleck said you generally go into games confident knowing about 60% of what you will see. He said with Mich, it was 40% or even less.

 

[Dano564]

Just listened to the GG podcast with Burns and there were a few interesting nuggets about the D:

• At least 60% of what Michigan did on O was totally unexpected (and Fleck apparently alluded to this in his presser). MN had a hard time adjusting with youngish players needing to make pre and post-snap reads they didn't practice.
• In general, the defensive scheme seemed complicated and will likely be greatly simplified moving forward. Players were tentative in reacting, making run fits, and taking angles of pursuit.
• LB Gordon is recovering from COVID (they said "dealing with COVID-related issues") and working to get back into shape.
• Fleck recruited 3 safeties early in his tenure here who are no longer with the program -- and it's starting to hurt now. They named Handy-Holly and 2 others who would've been 3rd or 4th years now.

Adam Beck was one. Texas Tech.
Handy Holly was the other. Went to Auburn and retired due to concussions.
Don't know who the thirdis.

 

[Dano564]

As Fleck has said, it's now a player led team. They will figure it out or they won't. I'm going with the former until there is a bigger sample size of on-field performance to change my mind. They have had a couple days of time in the film room already and I bet they have learned a lot.

As for the coaches, it it their responsibility to ID what teams are doing differently and make the needed in game adjustments. Fleck said you generally go into games confident knowing about 60% of what you will see. He said with Mich, it was 40% or even less.

Hard to say on this. I would guess through the year you see stuff on film. First game you don't get that.
Probably assumed offense was going to be similar to what they had last year and Harbaugh changed it up some.

 

[btowngopher]

Hard to say on this. I would guess through the year you see stuff on film. First game you don't get that.
Probably assumed offense was going to be similar to what they had last year and Harbaugh changed it up some.

Milton allowed Michigan to change things up a lot on offense. His athleticism let them run some completely new stuff.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Milton allowed Michigan to change things up a lot on offense. His athleticism let them run some completely new stuff.

Yeah they haven't had a mobile QB in forever I think.

 

[MplsGopher]

Right, but I think Fleck is referring to the 2-back formations that Michigan was running. They had that white guy back there as a full-back/H-back, at times. They threw him a TD at one point. I also recall he got an unsportsmanlike penalty early for being too aggressive.

Fleck mentioned something about how one of their TE had covid, and so maybe that changed their plan. But that after the first big TD run early, the run fits looked much better. Just have to tackle much better.

They obviously watched a lot of the Ohio State and Alabama bowl game footage, and based their gameplans on that. He mentioned that both those teams were able to protect against this same Michigan front, much better than we were.

 

[MplsGopher]

Adam Beck was one. Texas Tech.
Handy Holly was the other. Went to Auburn and retired due to concussions.
Don't know who the third is.

Benny Sapp and Terell Smith are still listed on the roster. Did one of them leave, that we don't know about?

Otherwise, the only other DBs from the 2017 or 2018 classes are Ray Estes and CJ Smith.

 

[Dano564]

Benny Sapp and Terell Smith are still listed on the roster. Did one of them leave, that we don't know about?

Otherwise, the only other DBs from the 2017 or 2018 classes are Ray Estes and CJ Smith.

Maybe they were referring to Estes, but I think we understand that was just not going to be a fit at safety otherwise he would have seen some action at some point..
CJ Smith also wasn't going to break the lineup (and was a CB, not a safety).

I think 2 is probably accurate. Three missing who could have been starters I think is exaggerating a bit.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Hard to say on this. I would guess through the year you see stuff on film. First game you don't get that.
Probably assumed offense was going to be similar to what they had last year and Harbaugh changed it up some.

You'll have to take that up with the coach...

 

[Go Gophs]

I said this in another thread but how can any team replicate that speed in practice with a scout team. Had to be shocking, at least the Blue Bloods of the football world can be ready for an opener like that with a bench stacked with speedy players even if they are young. The bad angles and other tackling/blocking issues might be from practicing against our scout team; probably not the fastest guys on the team.

Poor excuse and the kind of thing that this program should be past. That is a loser's mentality and excuse. You want to be a challenger, this kind of thinking should be wiped from the program and even fans minds.

Toughen up. The defense got slaughtered and slaughtered bad. They need to pick things up in a huge way or this season will be over before it starts.

 

[Dano564]

Poor excuse and the kind of thing that this program should be past. That is a loser's mentality and excuse. You want to be a challenger, this kind of thinking should be wiped from the program and even fans minds.

Toughen up. The defense got slaughtered and slaughtered bad. They need to pick things up in a huge way or this season will be over before it starts.

I don't think he meant it as an excuse.

We're all just spit-balling here.

Feel free to call the season "over" any time you want, but to think "path to success" is just a straight line up, you are probably mistaken.

Even the University of TX has had some setbacks on their road to the top.

 

[Go Gophs]

I don't think the season is over at all. And I'm a backer no matter what of this team and program.

I think you come out and give up 40 to Maryland you will lose that one too. They have to get it shored up and fast.

Also, you have Iowa and Wisconsin left and maybe it's just Wisconsin to impress anyone and make a good bowl game.

 

[Dano564]

This is an odd year.
We're not going to go unbeaten.
That's been proven.

Maybe we don't win any. Maybe we win the rest.
I don't think we're going to go from extending our coach to firing the whole staff during 2.5 COVID months.

R-E-L-A-X

 

[tmvander]

The problem I have with the whole 60% thing is that Michigan just ran the ball down our throats the whole game. I get its hard to be prepared for a new QB and he ran quite a bit, but it isn't like they were running fluke plays all over the place. They had some HUGE plays right up the middle. If you aren't planning for up the middle at all then you're setting yourself up for a lousy defensive performance.

With that said, let's all hope this was the worst we see all year and still get to 6-2 or 7-1.

 

[DanvilleGopher]

The problem I have with the whole 60% thing is that Michigan just ran the ball down our throats the whole game. I get its hard to be prepared for a new QB and he ran quite a bit, but it isn't like they were running fluke plays all over the place. They had some HUGE plays right up the middle. If you aren't planning for up the middle at all then you're setting yourself up for a lousy defensive performance.

With that said, let's all hope this was the worst we see all year and still get to 6-2 or 7-1.

As they stated on the broadcast, the middle was SOOO wide open so often. Not sure why, but it just seemed (and actually looked) like there wasn't anyone there. Obviously your LB's should be there but they seemed to not be able to shed any blockers most of the time. I read someone said they re-watched the game and Lindenberg is going to be a hell of a player. I can only think of one play where he actually made a play and that was on a 3rd down that forced a missed FG.

Just think if Michigan makes those FG's, or if they turn those into TD's... they easily could have scored in the 60's which takes us back quite a bit with the Gopher's defenses of the past.

I really don't think there was 1 player who played well, or even average. I had a very bad feeling after Michigan's first play that went for 24 yards when they threw wide to the receiver behind the line of scrimmage; it was Aune that read the play very well and closed in for what I thought would be a nice play - but the guy juked inside (and then went outside) and almost made Aune faceplant, he didn't even come close to making the tackle. I said out loud, holy cow, if that is what our LB's look like this year, we're in big trouble.

I'm hoping that was one game, and lessons were learned and we won't see this again, but I'll be honest; I'm a little nervous heading into Maryland...

Ok, I'm done with my Chicken Little moment..

 

[GopherDog1]

Poor excuse and the kind of thing that this program should be past. That is a loser's mentality and excuse. You want to be a challenger, this kind of thinking should be wiped from the program and even fans minds.

Toughen up. The defense got slaughtered and slaughtered bad. They need to pick things up in a huge way or this season will be over before it starts.

No excuse!! I don't make excuses.

 

[skiumah1]

Aune that read the play very well and closed in for what I thought would be a nice play - but the guy juked inside (and then went outside) and almost made Aune faceplant, he didn't even come close to making the tackle. I said out loud, holy cow, if that is what our LB's look like this year, we're in big trouble.

I agreed watching Aune. I'd anticipate we see more of Willis, Brown, Gordon, and/or Burns as the season goes on. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Hate to be too hard on the kid, the game just seemed too fast for him.

 

[GopherDog1]

Poor excuse and the kind of thing that this program should be past. That is a loser's mentality and excuse. You want to be a challenger, this kind of thinking should be wiped from the program and even fans minds.

Toughen up. The defense got slaughtered and slaughtered bad. They need to pick things up in a huge way or this season will be over before it starts.

One game at a time - settle down.

 

[HoustonTXGopher]

I keep hearing the national media laud Michigan for their big win and how they may finally have a QB, etc....blah blah blah

I didn't see a great MIchigan team on the field, I saw a pretty bad Minnesota on the field!

Our right side of the OL really struggled, tough to replace Dunlap and Faalele, but Blaise struggled as the right tackle, the good news is he will improve quickly.

It became pretty obvious that the loss of Tyler Johnson was a big impact as well. For all you TE pass catching lovers....give me two big time down field receivers any day of the week.

As far as the defense went, I think you all have said everything that needs to be said.

Special teams better get their shit together....didnt we fail on a fake punt against Wisconsin last year too? Ugh

I still think we can get to 5-3, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 3-5 either.

Looking forward to Friday night so we can put that Michigan game behind us.

 

[Replacement Gopher]

As they stated on the broadcast, the middle was SOOO wide open so often. Not sure why, but it just seemed (and actually looked) like there wasn't anyone there. Obviously your LB's should be there but they seemed to not be able to shed any blockers most of the time. I read someone said they re-watched the game and Lindenberg is going to be a hell of a player. I can only think of one play where he actually made a play and that was on a 3rd down that forced a missed FG.

Just think if Michigan makes those FG's, or if they turn those into TD's... they easily could have scored in the 60's which takes us back quite a bit with the Gopher's defenses of the past.

I really don't think there was 1 player who played well, or even average. I had a very bad feeling after Michigan's first play that went for 24 yards when they threw wide to the receiver behind the line of scrimmage; it was Aune that read the play very well and closed in for what I thought would be a nice play - but the guy juked inside (and then went outside) and almost made Aune faceplant, he didn't even come close to making the tackle. I said out loud, holy cow, if that is what our LB's look like this year, we're in big trouble.

I'm hoping that was one game, and lessons were learned and we won't see this again, but I'll be honest; I'm a little nervous heading into Maryland...

Ok, I'm done with my Chicken Little moment..

Thought the exact same thing on the Aune play. Didn’t look like they should be on the field together.

 

[MplsGopher]

Think Aune vs J Harris is going to depend on the opposing offense's personnel. If 3+ WR, then probably Harris will be out there more often.

 

[Dano564]

Well, the silver lining of course is that if we are bad, more likely Tanner Morgan returns.

Of course if the year goes bad, our board will probably be arguing ZA, JC, or CK should be starting.

 

[MplsGopher]

Someone brought up short-field situations as hamstringing the D (either in this thread or another).

Just looking at our kickoffs and drives: https://gophersports.com/sports/football/stats/2020/michigan/boxscore/13218

- initial squib kickoff, they return to their 30 (not bad)
1 - we got a short-field after the blocked punt, scored TD
- squib kickoff again to their 30 (not bad)
2 - bad 4 and out (sacked) ... punt from our 14 for 31yards, to our 45 -- Mich stalls then misses the 38yd FG attempt
3 - sacked, fumbled, Mich D runs back for a TD
4 - long drive, should've scored TD, but illegal formation, can't put it in, FG good
- squib kickoff that they picked up for a huge return, to our 8 -- they scored TD
5 - long drive, score TD
- started sky-balling the kickoff, this one they fumbled and we should've recovered but didn't, they start at their 23 (good)
6 - 4 and out ... except this was the disastrous fake punt call, they start at our 29 -- Mich scores TD
7 - 4 and out ... punt from our 29 for 18yards, to our 47 -- Mich stalls then misses the 48yd FG attempt
(end of half)
8 - long drive, score TD
- sky-ball kickoff, they return to their 32 (not bad)
9 - this is where we had 4 downs with Goal to go, and couldn't score. 4th down, Morgan had Mo wide in the end-zone and overthrew him. (Mich starts at their 4, busts a huge run, eventually scores TD)
10 - started out as a decent drive, then Mich sacked us THREE plays in a row (just bitched our OL) ... punt from our 42 for 45yards, to their 13 (we did it!!! --- and this ended up being their third missed FG)
11 - Morgan picked off on second play, return minus illegal block = they start at our 30 -- they put the backup QB in there and let him go 4 downs, they turn it over
12 - starts ok decent, but then stalls out ... punt from our 40 for 46yards, to their 14 (we did it again!!!) --- Mich kneels to end the game


So at the end of the day, there were five situations where the defense got put into a short-field situation, and two of those started at our 45 and our 47, which isn't ideal but also not the end of the world.

They did score 2 TD from those, but also missed two FG, and then the last was a turnover on downs during garbage time with their backup QB.