Defensive Concerns

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Do we not have any other safeties that can play besides Jordan Howden?
I am clueless how this dude starts...he's simply not good. Constantly out of
position and when he makes a great play it seems by accident.

Benny Sapp? Calvin Swenson?
 

Somehow, I have to have some kind of faith that the coaches are trying to evaluate these guys, and playing the guys they think are going to give the team the best chance to win.

How many players from the 2019 and 2020 classes were out there, for at least a significant portion of time?
 




There one that concerned me the most was Lindenberg starting. Maybe he’s just that good, I have no idea. But a true freshman playing without a full-on fall camp, playing a position that needs to diagnose run/pass/qb run instantly against the speed that MI has? We have numerous LB’s that have been here longer and most assuredly better prepped. Are they not any good? Are they being held out for injury or COVID or opt-out? Not having a real depth chart/injury report is really frustrating.
 

MGGopher said:
This. The season will tell us a lot about Minnesota's depth and talent development. I understand the trepidation as it's not often the Gophers lose four defensive players to the NFL and another who started over 40 games. Elite programs go through this almost every year. Is MN elite? We'll find out pretty quick.
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Not Elite entering year 4. Depth and recruiting needs to continue to improve, but continuity and development are most important.
 


forever a gopher said:
There one that concerned me the most was Lindenberg starting. Maybe he’s just that good, I have no idea. But a true freshman playing without a full-on fall camp, playing a position that needs to diagnose run/pass/qb run instantly against the speed that MI has? We have numerous LB’s that have been here longer and most assuredly better prepped. Are they not any good? Are they being held out for injury or COVID or opt-out? Not having a real depth chart/injury report is really frustrating.
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If he was that good, he would've been a 4* and more heavily recruited by the larger programs.

Not saying he's not good, or that he won't be great. But I think we were forced to use him, because Oliver clearly hurt himself this spring and is out for the year.
 



MplsGopher said:
If he was that good, he would've been a 4* and more heavily recruited by the larger programs.

Not saying he's not good, or that he won't be great. But I think we were forced to use him, because Oliver clearly hurt himself this spring and is out for the year.
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Sure, we knew about Oliver. But I count 9 other LB’s on the roster (other than Oliver and Sori-Marin) that are R-Fr. or more experienced. Like I said, maybe he’s just that good. Or maybe it’s an indictment on the other players you have on the roster. There were numerous times where the LBs and safeties has blown assignments. Being too slow or not being as good of an athlete as MI players is one thing. Not being where you’re supposed to be to maybe make a play is a whole ‘nother issue.
 

I wonder how the defense would have looked had they had a full spring training. normal fall camp and 4 games ( 3 non-conf) under their belt.
 





Defensively, we are way too slow. LB was bad last night. Aune was a non-factor. MSM is really aggressive with his reads, which takes him out of position a lot. Lindenberg played like a true freshman. We need to improve that spot. DL was also bad. DT did nothing against the run or pass. DE...do they do anything but bull-rush? Not a lot of pass-rush skill. Our front 7 was dominated last night.
 

GridironGus said:
I wonder how the defense would have looked had they had a full spring training. normal fall camp and 4 games ( 3 non-conf) under their belt.
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sure, because no other team in college FB is dealing with this - it's only a problem for the Gophers.

The Gophers' defense was getting beat physically, and making mental mistakes. you can live with the first if it doesn't happen too often. But you can't have guys missing assignments or being in the wrong position. there is a reason why people are comparing the Michigan game to the way they played defense during the Robb Smith era.

for me, the real bottom line is this - all things being equal, bet on the team with the better athletes. for all the talk about improved recruiting, the Gophers' overall level of athletic ability is still not where it needs to be if they really want to be a team that contends for conference titles.
 

GridironGus said:
I wonder how the defense would have looked had they had a full spring training. normal fall camp and 4 games ( 3 non-conf) under their belt.
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Michigan started an OL with 4 new starters and a QB making his first career start. Yet they seemed to be able to manage that. I don't think the game would have gone any differently had we had 3 non-conf. games and the normal fall camp and spring practice. It is somewhat alarming that not one of the LB who has been with the program for a year or two couldn't take other LB position with Sori-Marin (who didn't look very good either) Michigan did a great job all game of attacking our weakness up the middle and stayed away from Durr and St. Juste for the most part.
 

I think it's fair to demand more from the D-Line. Those guys have experience and just plain need to be better.

I don't know if you can demand that from inexperienced LBs or Nubin at safety. Just help those guys grow and learn every week.
 

forever a gopher said:
Sure, we knew about Oliver. But I count 9 other LB’s on the roster (other than Oliver and Sori-Marin) that are R-Fr. or more experienced. Like I said, maybe he’s just that good. Or maybe it’s an indictment on the other players you have on the roster. There were numerous times where the LBs and safeties has blown assignments. Being too slow or not being as good of an athlete as MI players is one thing. Not being where you’re supposed to be to maybe make a play is a whole ‘nother issue.
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Well according to https://gophersports.com/sports/football/roster/2020?&sort=position we've got (not showing walk-on guys):

Guthrie - RS Junior - redshirted 2017, no game action 2018 or 2019 - 220lbs

Sori-Marin - true Junior - played in every game since 2018 - 245lbs, starting (Middle?)
Rush - true Junior - played in every game since 2018 - playing the "Rush End" position. I think this is some kind of hybrid between a D-end and an outside linebacker? Not sure on that though.
Oliver - RS soph - redshirted 2018, then played in all games last year - 235 lbs, but is assumed to be out with injury for 2020.
Aune - RS soph - redshirted 2018, then played in 12 games last year - 235 lbs

Gordon - RS fresh - redshirted in 2019 (got in for four games) - 230lbs, was a 3* recruit
Willis - RS fresh - redshirted in 2019 (got in for three games) - 215lbs, was a 3* recruit

Burns - true fresh - 220lbs, was a 3* recruit
Brown - true fresh - 235lbs, was a 4* recruit
Finnessy - true fresh - 240lbs, was a 3* recruit
Lidenberg - true fresh - 235lbs, was a 3* recruit, starting (Outside?)



RS Seniors (class of 2016) are lacking because they all played as true freshman and graduated. Barber, K-Mart, Caughlin (rush end).

RS Juniors/true Seniors (class of 2017) are lacking because Guthrie has clearly been a colossal bust, and he was the only LB in the class.

At the least, we can conclude that Lidenberg beat out Aune, Gordon, and Willis, in addition to the rest in his class. He was an early enrollee, I'm sure that helped.
 
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Willis/Gordon not being in the mix at LB was a bit surprising given how much Fleck has talked them up at times. Will be interesting to see if that is just a one game thing or if that continues.

Biggest disappointment was seeing some of the big plays that had mostly become a thing of the past return. Hopefully just a case of guys being out of position and something Rossi and his coaches can address.

Definitely a rough start for the D, but it is far too early to throw in the towel after one game against a ranked team to start the year. Teams improve the most between week 1 and week 2. Let's see what the coaches can do now that they have some game film to work with and see what the D looks like in the next few weeks before just assuming the sky is falling and we are screwed.

D has to play better going forward but they also need to get more help from the offense and special teams. Those units didn't do them many favors last night in terms of getting Michigan off balance and forcing them to do things they didn't want to.
 

skiumah1 said:
I think it's fair to demand more from the D-Line. Those guys have experience and just plain need to be better.

I don't know if you can demand that from inexperienced LBs or Nubin at safety. Just help those guys grow and learn every week.
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I don't know if the issue was really the DL. I thought Michigan really took advantage of horrible LB and DB play. It was the huge plays and then the playaction, roll out types of plays that really did us in.

Harris struggled. The difference between him and Williamson was really noticeable. Wiliamson was physical enough to play the run and the slot. That's a difficult thing to replace.

Obviously, we noticed the number of issues AWJr covered up.

Our safeties were out of position all day.
 

Actually had a chance to sit and watch the game. Obviously, that answers a lot of my questions.

1) Aune in fact started the game, as an OLB. But we're splitting time quite a bit between having a 5th DB (J Harris) vs. a 3rd LB. In fact, on Michigan's first offensive play, Aune got burned by a stutter move pretty badly. He was in great position to make a nice tackle for loss, and got badly juked.

2) If you have any doubt at all as to why Lidenberg shot up the depth chart to start, and play the entire game ... just watch the 3rd down on Michigan's drive in the first quarter (think it was the 2nd or 3rd ... the one where they missed the FG). The potential is there for this kid to be a stud 4 year starter. Shot the gap and blew the play up. Speed, athleticism, and length are there in spades, at a solid height and weight. Might need to add some strength, and just get a lot more experience. But he's gonna be a great one. (I hope!)


Overall, the lack of defensive playmakers and leaders that are still on the team from the 2016 and 2017 classes is going to be a problem for the rest of this year. Probably always was going to be. Fleck doesn't do too many JUCO's, which I understand he doesn't want hole patches.

But you just go down the lists and look at who's still here and contributing on defense:
https://247sports.com/college/minnesota/Season/2016-Football/Commits/
https://247sports.com/college/minnesota/Season/2017-Football/Commits/

Mostly J Harris, Mafe, and Otomewo, while Guthrie and Hickcox are still on the roster but appear to be busts.

Schad, Dew, and St. Juste (and Williamson, gone now) added quite a bit as transfers, so that does count for something.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Willis/Gordon not being in the mix at LB was a bit surprising given how much Fleck has talked them up at times. Will be interesting to see if that is just a one game thing or if that continues.

Biggest disappointment was seeing some of the big plays that had mostly become a thing of the past return. Hopefully just a case of guys being out of position and something Rossi and his coaches can address.

Definitely a rough start for the D, but it is far too early to throw in the towel after one game against a ranked team to start the year. Teams improve the most between week 1 and week 2. Let's see what the coaches can do now that they have some game film to work with and see what the D looks like in the next few weeks before just assuming the sky is falling and we are screwed.

D has to play better going forward but they also need to get more help from the offense and special teams. Those units didn't do them many favors last night in terms of getting Michigan off balance and forcing them to do things they didn't want to.
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You pretty much summed up my thoughts. Expected a healthy dose of Gordon and/or Willis last night and saw nada. LB's and Safeties were ABUSED all night on passes between the hashes, bubbles, screens, runs between the tackles, etc. Aune was a non-factor as someone else said. He looked very unathletic. Lindenberg looked like a freshman. Flashed once or twice, but otherwise was nowhere to be seen. MSM very uninspiring and plodding. Safeties just brutal. Michigan barely challenged Durr or St. Juste because they didn't have to. The blueprint has been laid for beating the Gophers D. Let's see how they adjust.
 

MplsGopher said:
Actually had a chance to sit and watch the game. Obviously, that answers a lot of my questions.

1) Aune in fact started the game, as an OLB. But we're splitting time quite a bit between having a 5th DB (J Harris) vs. a 3rd LB. In fact, on Michigan's first offensive play, Aune got burned by a stutter move pretty badly. He was in great position to make a nice tackle for loss, and got badly juked.

2) If you have any doubt at all as to why Lidenberg shot up the depth chart to start, and play the entire game ... just watch the 3rd down on Michigan's drive in the first quarter (think it was the 2nd or 3rd ... the one where they missed the FG). The potential is there for this kid to be a stud 4 year starter. Shot the gap and blew the play up. Speed, athleticism, and length are there in spades, at a solid height and weight. Might need to add some strength, and just get a lot more experience. But he's gonna be a great one. (I hope!)


Overall, the lack of defensive playmakers and leaders that are still on the team from the 2016 and 2017 classes is going to be a problem for the rest of this year. Probably always was going to be. Fleck doesn't do too many JUCO's, which I understand he doesn't want hole patches.

But you just go down the lists and look at who's still here and contributing on defense:
https://247sports.com/college/minnesota/Season/2016-Football/Commits/
https://247sports.com/college/minnesota/Season/2017-Football/Commits/

Mostly J Harris, Mafe, and Otomewo, while Guthrie and Hickcox are still on the roster but appear to be busts.

Schad, Dew, and St. Juste (and Williamson, gone now) added quite a bit as transfers, so that does count for something.
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Mafe a bust? Not sure on that
 

Gopher028 said:
Do we not have any other safeties that can play besides Jordan Howden?
I am clueless how this dude starts...he's simply not good. Constantly out of
position and when he makes a great play it seems by accident.

Benny Sapp? Calvin Swenson?
Click to expand...

Howden is the least of our problems.
I'm a big Howden fan.
 

Defensively, we are really looking the 2017 class for Junior / Senior leadership.
This was the first Fleck class which had some Claeys recruits.
Defensively I don't think it was our best class considering the two safeties were both gone within a year.

Handy-Holly went to Auburn and ended up retiring due to concussions.
Adam Beck is contributing at Texas Tech.
 

We need more push and disruption from the DTs. Mafe is a good pass rusher, but didn’t seem to be there to contain on outside runs—by RB or QB. Other DE was silent. I think Lindenberg will by a stud OLB, but he needs experience so he doesn’t bite on fakes and take himself out. Most puzzled by seeming total absence of RFrosh Willis (cover if media guide!) and Gordon. P.J. has really hyped them. Did they even play?
 

LBs cant shed blocks....once OL engages, it's over for them.
 


Face The Facts said:
Defensively, we are really looking the 2017 class for Junior / Senior leadership.
This was the first Fleck class which had some Claeys recruits.
Defensively I don't think it was our best class considering the two safeties were both gone within a year.

Handy-Holly went to Auburn and ended up retiring due to concussions.
Adam Beck is contributing at Texas Tech.
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2016 would be RS seniors this year.

These days, at the top level, perhaps you don't want to have a lot of RS seniors anymore? I honestly don't know what the answer is there, and perhaps varies with position group (could see 5th year guys more likely in OL, for example).

As everyone knows, we had tons of studs in that class ... and they played as true freshmen.
 

MplsGopher said:
2016 would be RS seniors this year.

These days, at the top level, perhaps you don't want to have a lot of RS seniors anymore? I honestly don't know what the answer is there, and perhaps varies with position group (could see 5th year guys more likely in OL, for example).

As everyone knows, we had tons of studs in that class ... and they played as true freshmen.
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2016 class was:
Carter Coughlin
Kamal Martin
Kiondre Thomas
Winfield

Defensive Lineman from 2016
Merrick Jackson
Tai'yon Devers
Tamarion Johnson

2017 - D-Line:
Malcolm Robinson
Royal Silver
Boye Mafe
Esezi Otomewo
Noah Hickcox
Austin Schrick
 

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