Cockran hit: Fair or Foul?

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Can't take it anymore. His name is Cockran. With a k. Throughout all this discussion, I swear his name has been misspelled like 80% of the time.
 

BJN said:
Not that it will ever happen, but this is spot on. You see these style of unintended consequences everywhere in life.

People concerned about player safety -> More padded helmets -> Players feel they can hit harder because of increased padding -> More concussions

People concerned about bad health effects from drinking pop -> Companies create Diet Pop -> People drink more pop thinking it's healthier -> More adverse health effects
People concerned about affording college -> Easier access to student loans -> People take out more loans, Colleges charge more because they know students can take out more loans -> More student loan debt

If you remove the perception of risk, you often end up with severer consequences. Football's not immune from the laws of economics.
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I think a former WCHA official said that he though facemasks made college hockey more dangerous with a similar line of reasoning. The basic argument, if I recall, was that having a facemask as a barrier made going face first into the boards instinctively less scary, when in fact the real danger of that kind of impact was head/neck/back injuries, nothing to do with the face.
 

The blow was delivered by his shoulder and possibly a forearm. His helmet is outside of Morris shoulder. This is not helmet to helmet as many stories have stated. The angle of Cochran's body is taught to defensive players. It is maximum leverage. The blow whiplashed Morris head first forward and then back. And when he hit the turf it was another blow.

The call ruffing the passer is correct. There is nothing more there regarding Cochran.

Now a player laid out on the turf, and you didn't see it is a whole different thing. The penalty is called and enforced, and when he staggered to his feet and leaned on his lineman, and one of the receivers was waving for help. He waived them off, but That's on Hoke, the Offensive Coordiantor, and the entire staff.
 


DMB123 said:
Looks to me like Cochran's head is hitting Morris' chest, not his head. It was a good call, but I don't think it was targeting.
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This. Have said the same thing. But let the OP have his day on the subject, I guess. Agree with his statement for the most part, but believe his application of it is incorrect in this particular instance. It wasn't targeting, imo.
 


husker70 said:
The blow was delivered by his shoulder and possibly a forearm. His helmet is outside of Morris shoulder. This is not helmet to helmet as many stories have stated. The angle of Cochran's body is taught to defensive players. It is maximum leverage. The blow whiplashed Morris head first forward and then back. And when he hit the turf it was another blow.
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So, about that Zapruder film?
 

All I have to say about the Cockran hit is...

That I only wish he would have hit him again. I was at the 1998 and 2003 heartbreakers with my family and remember listening on the radio to countless more games with my dad - I remember how disappointed and discouraged he would get after the Wolverines dished out blowout after blowout, year after year. After all the pain and frustration that accursed program has inflicted on Gopher football in the last 50 years, that bone crushing hit by Cockran was much deserved. I'm confident there were many, far more questionable and dirty shots delivered by hot-dog Michigan players in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s.

HELL YES this is a signature win - a longtime hex on Gopher football has been convincingly lifted.
Hopefully we beat them by 30 next year!
 

A couple of things: first, to the OP. I think reasonable people can disagree about your analysis even though you don't take that position. Your still picture is terrible and the gif from the other post is a much better look at what actually happened. See the link below.

My main problem with your post is that the QB was "defenseless." While I'm quite certain that several people will take issue with what I'm about to say, I don't care. Most people on this board have played at some point in time in their lives. Pee-Wee, JR. High, High School, College, Professional. You know when you go out on that field that you are going to take hits from people or give hits to people. You especially know that if you are playing for a helmet school in front of 110,000 people on a regular basis. You especially know that if you are playing QB for said school. You especially know that if you release a pass sooner than you wanted to because you are about to get driven into the ground by the defender. A "defenseless" player is someone like Favre when he took that hit from Warren Sapp after throwing an interception and the play was 45 yards across the other side of the field and there was no reason for Sapp to throw that block. What happened at The Big House on Saturday was not in the same ballpark, in my opinion.

Now, issue two: I went back to look at the original thread as MNVCGUY wisely suggested. I've linked it here to make it easy for anyone else that would like to look at it. He said that it was clear that TC55 was launching himself at the QB and that if I didn't think so I was a moron (my paraphrase of what he said, not his actual words). Well, I watched it over and over again. He takes a step with his right foot then left foot and hits the QB. Did his foot come off the ground? Yep, but I don't think he launched himself there.

It wasn't even a late hit. Look at the gif linked below, TC55 was already driving (proper tackling) his way to the QB when he released the ball. His helmet went to the side, it did hit the QB's upper left chest first but then continued off to the side. I bet Kill is okay with this hit.

Judge for yourself (again):

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?56275-Fair-hit-or-Foul
 

One concern - you do not want the Gophers to get a "reputation" for questionable hits. That will get the referees watching every hit, and waiting for opportunities to throw a flag. The Gophers are going to have to be very careful - there is a fine line between playing hard, aggressive football -- and running around looking for chances to blow someone up. Against Michigan, two roughing the passer penalties sustained drives for Michigan, including one drive that resulted in points. If that happens in a close game, it could turn a win into a loss.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
One concern - you do not want the Gophers to get a "reputation" for questionable hits. That will get the referees watching every hit, and waiting for opportunities to throw a flag. The Gophers are going to have to be very careful - there is a fine line between playing hard, aggressive football -- and running around looking for chances to blow someone up. Against Michigan, two roughing the passer penalties sustained drives for Michigan, including one drive that resulted in points. If that happens in a close game, it could turn a win into a loss.
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The interesting thing for me was while watching BTN Live last night. They showed a replay of the ML7 TD that was not shown during the game, from down low on the right sideline. There was a ref just outside of the endzone that had his hand on his flag right after the hit, did not throw it (as we all know), and just after he hits him, the LB looks back at the guy, and then they chat while walking through the endzone. I'll guess he was saying that it was pretty close (maybe a warning?), but beyond that is pure conjecture. Hell...it's all guessing at this point.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I think a former WCHA official said that he though facemasks made college hockey more dangerous with a similar line of reasoning. The basic argument, if I recall, was that having a facemask as a barrier made going face first into the boards instinctively less scary, when in fact the real danger of that kind of impact was head/neck/back injuries, nothing to do with the face.
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Well, to be a bit OT, the types of injuries in amateur hockey definitely changed from lots of minor facial bumps and cuts to a bunch more head and neck injuries. Also, as time went by, officials allowed raised forearms whereas in the old days getting your arms up when hitting was a certain minor for elbowing or roughing, without regard to actual contact. Personally, in football it seems like leading with the helmet has been a technique promoted by coaches. I think we're dealing with a crop of players who will struggle with this until they have enough reps form tackling to break the instinctive habit.
 

The hit was definitely worth roughing the passer, nothing more, nothing less.

It's about time OUR Gophers intimidate opponents with true football, instead of opponents intimidating us.

GO GOPHERS!!! And INTIMIDATE opponents into oblivion.
 

Unregistered User said:
The interesting thing for me was while watching BTN Live last night. They showed a replay of the ML7 TD that was not shown during the game, from down low on the right sideline. There was a ref just outside of the endzone that had his hand on his flag right after the hit, did not throw it (as we all know), and just after he hits him, the LB looks back at the guy, and then they chat while walking through the endzone. I'll guess he was saying that it was pretty close (maybe a warning?), but beyond that is pure conjecture. Hell...it's all guessing at this point.
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Well at least he gave him a warning, lmao. As another poster stated earlier, with the way those refs were calling the game Saturday I can't imagine them giving us a call. If they felt they could have got Cockran for targeting, I believe they would have.
 



Here is a (I think) a clearer image of the hit. Sure looks like a "helmet to helmet" hit.

e8a9ux.jpg


I am taking no sides as to what the punishment/penalty should have been/should be.

Source: Michigan's version of "Brick to Brick"

http://www.mgoblue.com/collegesportslive/?media=465759
 

Wahoo McDaniel said:
It would make more sense that the Big Ten Office might want to review and question Hoke directly as to why he allowed an injured player to remain in and later return to the game?
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That is where any review should go. Hoke is trying to cover his ass.
 

It was a stupid play because keeping Morris upright and healthy was the best thing for the Gophers. I just love how we win the LBJ in one of the most dominating defensive performances by a Gopher team in a Big Ten game in a long time and the longest thread is a ridiculous debate about a 15 yard penalty during garbage time. It wasn't targeting, because 'targeting' wasn't called. It's a subjective term created by football. I know they created a definition, but we've been told that to fit the definition it has to be called on the field. End of discussion.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
One concern - you do not want the Gophers to get a "reputation" for questionable hits. That will get the referees watching every hit, and waiting for opportunities to throw a flag. The Gophers are going to have to be very careful - there is a fine line between playing hard, aggressive football -- and running around looking for chances to blow someone up. Against Michigan, two roughing the passer penalties sustained drives for Michigan, including one drive that resulted in points. If that happens in a close game, it could turn a win into a loss.
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Both RTP penalties on the Gophers were marginal, split-second calls, while two similar plays by Michigan defenders went uncalled. I don't see a conspiracy to label us as dirty, especially with the class that comes from the top (JK) down. One huge example I noticed at the game, that they didn't show on the TV broadcast, was late in the 4th quarter, ML got whalloped pretty good on a run...then reached down to help up the Michigan player. Back in the day, JK's program had this slogan "Kick Ass With Class." There are a bunch of layers to his program philosophy. Dirty isn't one of them.
 

GopherHomer said:
It was a stupid play because keeping Morris upright and healthy was the best thing for the Gophers. I just love how we win the LBJ in one of the most dominating defensive performances by a Gopher team in a Big Ten game in a long time and the longest thread is a ridiculous debate about a 15 yard penalty during garbage time. It wasn't targeting, because 'targeting' wasn't called. It's a subjective term created by football. I know they created a definition, but we've been told that to fit the definition it has to be called on the field. End of discussion.
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Agreed. I don't understand why people are being so nitpicky about this play. Helmet/neck contact or not, it was only called roughing the passer and Cockran stayed in the game. The Big Ten has already said it's not eligible to be reviewed. Time to move on.
 

BarnBoy said:
Here is a (I think) a clearer image of the hit. Sure looks like a "helmet to helmet" hit.

e8a9ux.jpg


I am taking no sides as to what the punishment/penalty should have been/should be.
Source: Michigan's version of "Brick to Brick"

http://www.mgoblue.com/collegesportslive/?media=465759
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When I look at the GIF, it looks like the first contact (that's what matters) is shoulder to chest. The helmet moved up to the chin after the original hit.
 

BarnBoy said:
Here is a (I think) a clearer image of the hit. Sure looks like a "helmet to helmet" hit.

e8a9ux.jpg


I am taking no sides as to what the punishment/penalty should have been/should be.

Source: Michigan's version of "Brick to Brick"

http://www.mgoblue.com/collegesportslive/?media=465759
Click to expand...

It also appears his left foot is still on the ground, even after the hit. So this notion that he violently launches himself at the QB is false.

I agree that it's time to move on. Where's the Northwestern scouting report?!
 

BJN said:
Not that it will ever happen, but this is spot on. You see these style of unintended consequences everywhere in life.

People concerned about player safety -> More padded helmets -> Players feel they can hit harder because of increased padding -> More concussions

People concerned about bad health effects from drinking pop -> Companies create Diet Pop -> People drink more pop thinking it's healthier -> More adverse health effects
People concerned about affording college -> Easier access to student loans -> People take out more loans, Colleges charge more because they know students can take out more loans -> More student loan debt

If you remove the perception of risk, you often end up with severer consequences. Football's not immune from the laws of economics.
Click to expand...

It's more than just helmets - all of that padding allows the players to hit others at full speed (both defensively and offensively. We had a short discussion on this topic on Gopherhole in the past (last year?).
 

cncmin said:
It's more than just helmets - all of that padding allows the players to hit others at full speed (both defensively and offensively. We had a short discussion on this topic on Gopherhole in the past (last year?).
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Then let's get back to playing with no pads, and see how that works.
 

Dr.Don said:
Then let's get back to playing with no pads, and see how that works.
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Sure, just like everything, go back to the Stone Age like when you were a kid, right Don?
 


Keyser-13 said:
It wasn't even a late hit. Look at the gif linked below, TC55 was already driving (proper tackling) his way to the QB when he released the ball. His helmet went to the side, it did hit the QB's upper left chest first but then continued off to the side. I bet Kill is okay with this hit.
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Silly me. I always thought proper tackling involved using your arms to wrap up.
 


Gopherocious said:
It also appears his left foot is still on the ground, even after the hit. So this notion that he violently launches himself at the QB is false.

I agree that it's time to move on. Where's the Northwestern scouting report?!
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Watch the film. Morris was rolling out and was hit after he had finished his stride on his follow-through, so there's no question it was a late hit. I don't think it was flagrant or helmet-to-helmet, but is was a late hit.

And I agree. Let's talk about Northwestern.
 


Some Day...Is Coming! said:
Hey guy who uses the word idiot, try watching again and tell us what part of Cochran hits him first? Is it his shoulder, or is it the crown of his helmet? What makes the initial contact? He lowers his head, he launches himself by leaving his feet, and he targets the head. Didn't say whoever disagrees is an idiot, just said they lack intelligence. Using the helmet and targeting the head is not tough, doesn't make you tough, or a great football player. It's unnecessary, can cause serious damage to one's brain, and shouldn't be tolerated. It can easily end a players career. Hit and tackle with the shoulder, and don't target the head. If you're going to use your helmet you might as well take it off, grab it with your hand, and swing it and hit the opponent in the head or chin with it. Why not? I doubt you'll ever get it. Although you did grow out of calling people idiots when they disagreed with you.
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My bad, I always thought someone who lacks intelligence and an idiot was essentially the same thing. I better get my Webster's dictionary out and read up on the differences.

My post had nothing to do with the rest of your post here. And I agree with much of it, that stuff doesn't belong in the game. My point was that you essentially said your opinion is the only right one and anyone who disagrees lacks intelligence. When I made my post, I really did think he led with his shoulder and didn't make any contact with the guy's helmet. I might be wrong. Call me blind, don't call me unintelligent just because I might see things differently than you. Either way, it isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.
 

Unregistered User said:
After football, # 2 and #3 on frequency of concussions is Girl's soccer and Men's basketball.
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in college it's actually women's hockey followed by football followed by men's hockey when counted on a per 1000 athletic exposures (whatever the hell that means....)
 

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