Charley Walters: Flip Saunders turning down the Gophers is embarrassing

Shooter writing a column or whatever you call it should be considered embarrassing.

Sure: as if you and I and everyone else here are so much... ' 0 )

You know, you took the time to read it. Then you thought about it. Then you decided to respond to it. Then you even hit the "enter button..."
You had a long time and a lot of process to go through and a lot of energy to expend making yourself a part of the whole embarrassing thing. I did the same thing. Maybe people are just starting to get a little edgy watching this poor old program hit the skids again...At least I'm pretty sad about what this will most likely mean for the next four or five Golden Gopher Basketball Seasons...

; 0 (
 

I just don't see Flip turning down this job as being a matter of 'embarrassment', as we have no idea any of the details of this, nor why Flip might have turned the job down. Maybe it just wasn't the right fit at this time, as happens in business all the time, or maybe Flip's got other irons working in the fire (which we know for a fact he does), and maybe those take precedence for him at this time.

We all assumed that if offered, he would take the job instantly, so it would seem to me the problem lies with those incorrect assumptions, rather than anything the U or Norwood Teague might have done.

To me this is just another in an endless line of examples of 'Shooter' poor-mouthing Gophers sports programs while sliding the knife in whenever he can, and for that behavior, if anyone should feel embarrassed, that would be him.
 

"can't possibly agree to"??? Dude, we just had a coach with his son on the staff.
So apparently IT IS POSSIBLE.

But Saul was hired under a different AD...I have no problem with Norwood saying that he had a problem with Ryan being on the staff and that this would not happen under his watch. Isn't it refreshing to have an AD with the stones instead of lady parts? Saul's resume prior to being hired by Tubby compared to Ryan's makes Saul look like the John Wooden of coaching.

While I think Flip hiring flip would have been great, I don't think that the Ryan issue was the only reason the deal did not get done. Still think Flip wants to be back with the Wolves and this was best way to say no to the job without actually saying no
 

I do not think Teague wanted to hire Flip and this was a great way to get him to turn it down and save face with the MN fans and media.
 



@aellis21: Flip Saunders turned down the job.! #Wow

Go Gophers!!
 

@sartellinsider: Norwood and Russ at breakfast. Offer coming soon? Next update at 10am Eastern.
 

I'm just going off the top of my head, but here is a list of Father/Son coach combos: Lane Kiffin, Joe Paterno, Pete Carroll, Bill Belichek, Jim Mora, Kirk Ferentz, Lou Holtz, Bobby Bowden x3, Bobby Knight, Eddie Sutton, and John Thompson - I know my list is mostly football, but I am more familiar with that sport.

When Dick Bennett took the Washington State job, he brought his son Tony in as an associate coach and coach-in-waiting. It worked out pretty good for both WSU and Tony (now head coach at Virginia). From Wikipedia:

[Dick] Bennett stayed three seasons at WSU. The team did not post a winning record, but they did secure wins over teams they traditionally could never beat, UCLA, Arizona and Stanford. Bennett retired following the 2005–06 season and handed the program to his son and associate coach Tony Bennett. Tony proceeded to guide the Cougars to back-to-back NCAA Tournament appearances and a Sweet-16 showing in 2007.
 

You on the other hand seem to be quite reasonable. BTW- show me a quote where Flip states that he didn't want the job.


Well every where i read it says flip turned it down... not flip was not offered the job.. Yes flip new lots of people were pulling for him to take the job. If he has no intent on taking the job and wanted the twolves job then he should of come out and said i really dont want to coach college basketball. But good old flip thinks he is big time so come begging for me to take the freaking gopher job and then throw it back in NT face classy move flip.. GO back to ESPN and stay there we dont want you!! SO screw you flip you selfish prick who just likes his ego to be stroked from these message boards from PA from Dan Barriero .. Classy man... SO SCREW YOU FLIP!!!
 





Followup Goodman tweets:

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanCBS 17s
Nothing embarrasing about Flip saying no. RT @ZoneblitzCom: @GoodmanCBS On what part is he off target? Flip? Thinking Gophers can get Tyus?

And Flip wasn't getting Tyus, anyway. RT @ZoneblitzCom: @GoodmanCBS On what part is he off target? Flip? Thinking Gophers can get Tyus?

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanCBS 51s
Flip Saunders wasn't the right guy, anyway. RT @AyeJay_Love: @GoodmanCBS what is your opinion on the MN job and coaching search?

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanCBS 33s
Norwood Teague/Mike Ellis will land a good coach. RT @AyeJay_Love: @GoodmanCBS what is your opinion on the MN job and coaching search?
 

More Goodman:

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanCBS 1m
Not embarrassing at all. RT @akmoeller: @GoodmanCBS it's not embarrassing? Being turned down 4 times sure is. @AdamNedry @bmonahan512

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanCBS 1m
I don't see Buzz taking it. Maybe Enfield? RT @sawyer_pete: @GoodmanCBS What are you hearing for candidates for MN? Is Buzz a possibility?
 



Isnt the turned down 4 times just complete media speculation? As far as I know the only one we know (99%) was offered was Flip
 

Dude, you should take a chill pill, maybe? Or cut down on the coffee or put the bottle down or whatever?! Take your meds maybe?!

He wants the job, many believe, but just wants to be able to pick his assistants. That's pretty standard practice. Why should Flip be forced to let the AD pick his assistants for him?[/QUOTE]



Let's not be too hard on him, believe it or not he is expressing what a lot of people who are passionate about Gopher BB are feeling, FRUSTRATION!

I don't understand why NT feels he needs to pick the assistants, is this a common practice with college BB?
 

Can someone please post a link to the story that says Flip was offered the job and turned it down only because he was not going to be able to hire his son? I can't seem to find this anywhere but apparently we have a bunch of people that were in the room and watched Flip storm out the moment he was told Ryan wasn't going to be on his staff.

Relax people....let the process play out and see what happens. Then you can bitch and moan about who actually gets hired. We know next to nothing about this process outside of some of the people that have at least been targets to some degree. We got turned down by the ones that will turn down everyone (Smart, Stevens, Hoiberg) and didn't get Saunders....the sky isn't falling and these guys have not f'ed up this hire to the degree that Maturi f'ed up the football search.

Could also link to the story where it says NT said he is going to hire all the assistant coaches as well? No AD would ever do that because no coach would come work for him. There may very well be a clause against nepotism and in the end the AD does have to approve of the hire but no AD is going to tell his coach that he will pick his assistants for him....
 

But Saul was hired under a different AD...I have no problem with Norwood saying that he had a problem with Ryan being on the staff and that this would not happen under his watch. Isn't it refreshing to have an AD with the stones instead of lady parts? Saul's resume prior to being hired by Tubby compared to Ryan's makes Saul look like the John Wooden of coaching.

While I think Flip hiring flip would have been great, I don't think that the Ryan issue was the only reason the deal did not get done. Still think Flip wants to be back with the Wolves and this was best way to say no to the job without actually saying no

I'd rather have a practice facility than an AD with a pair of "stones." It may make Norwood sound cool but without the ability to raise funds and build the practice facility they won't do him any good.
 

Flip wouldn't have been a good fit either.

Go Gophers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Can someone please post a link to the story that says Flip was offered the job and turned it down only because he was not going to be able to hire his son? I can't seem to find this anywhere but apparently we have a bunch of people that were in the room and watched Flip storm out the moment he was told Ryan wasn't going to be on his staff.

Relax people....let the process play out and see what happens. Then you can bitch and moan about who actually gets hired. We know next to nothing about this process outside of some of the people that have at least been targets to some degree. We got turned down by the ones that will turn down everyone (Smart, Stevens, Hoiberg) and didn't get Saunders....the sky isn't falling and these guys have not f'ed up this hire to the degree that Maturi f'ed up the football search. Could also link to the story where it says NT said he is going to hire all the assistant coaches as well? No AD would ever do that because no coach would come work for him. There may very well be a clause against nepotism and in the end the AD does have to approve of the hire but no AD is going to tell his coach that he will pick his assistants for him....

So.... NT is not as big of a screw up as Maturi. Boy I'm relieved.

As to the Flip deal- everybody says there was an offer and Flip wasn't going to turn it down on the basis of money. Of all of the coaches approached this is the one we are certain there was an offer and a rejection. Believe what you wish.
 

And Kill didn't try to hire family. In fact even with his seizures he had to get special permission to just have his wife drive him on recruiting trips WITHOUT PAY. Was a number of write ups about that.

Clem had his son as the video coordinator too remember and that was never an issue. Saul wasn't an issue either until the DUI.
 


So.... NT is not as big of a screw up as Maturi. Boy I'm relieved.

As to the Flip deal- everybody says there was an offer and Flip wasn't going to turn it down on the basis of money. Of all of the coaches approached this is the one we are certain there was an offer and a rejection. Believe what you wish.

I just want to see these stories that confirm that NT told Flip that he (NT) was going to hire his assistants for him. Because I can't seem to find it yet you read a lot of posts on this forum and apparently that is why Flip turned us down because NT told him he couldn't hire his son and that he was also going to pick his other assistants as well. The son thing is possible the other assistant thing is complete BS because there is zero chance an AD would try to pull something like that.

Is it still possible they will bungle this process to the level that Maturi did? Sure, but we are not close to that point yet, we are 1 week into a search that has been kept very quiet, the media is pissed because they want to break the story first but don't have enough good info to go on and some fans are pissed because they don't feel the program is catering enough to them.
 

I just want to see these stories that confirm that NT told Flip that he (NT) was going to hire his assistants for him. Because I can't seem to find it yet you read a lot of posts on this forum and apparently that is why Flip turned us down because NT told him he couldn't hire his son and that he was also going to pick his other assistants as well. The son thing is possible the other assistant thing is complete BS because there is zero chance an AD would try to pull something like that.

Is it still possible they will bungle this process to the level that Maturi did? Sure, but we are not close to that point yet, we are 1 week into a search that has been kept very quiet, the media is pissed because they want to break the story first but don't have enough good info to go on and some fans are pissed because they don't feel the program is catering enough to them.

Fans will say what fans will say and so will the media- again if nobody says anything, then nobody cares. Bottom line is that the pressure is on Teague to produce a coach that justifies a 2.5 million payoff to a former coach and passing on a local fan and booster favorite in Flip. If he does the job we will all be happy. If he brings in a B list guy then there is probably no honeymoon for the poor guy and that's too bad.

Imagine a few years ago had Tony Dungy (who never coached college football) come out and made himself available for the Gopher football job and Maturi still hired Kill over a technicality. Imagine what fun that would have been for Kill?
 

I remember Flip commenting on the Jimmy Williams court case against the U. He was totally pro Jimmy Williams. Far fetched, but maybe Flip wanted Williams as one of his ass't coaches. Flip also has a great association with Eric Mussleman. Two Aas't coaches that maybe Norwood was told by higher authorities, No way. Strange as it may seem, Brian Dutcher may have also been on the no-no list. The BoR has some very long memories.
 

I just want to see these stories that confirm that NT told Flip that he (NT) was going to hire his assistants for him. Because I can't seem to find it yet you read a lot of posts on this forum and apparently that is why Flip turned us down because NT told him he couldn't hire his son and that he was also going to pick his other assistants as well. The son thing is possible the other assistant thing is complete BS because there is zero chance an AD would try to pull something like that.

Is it still possible they will bungle this process to the level that Maturi did? Sure, but we are not close to that point yet, we are 1 week into a search that has been kept very quiet, the media is pissed because they want to break the story first but don't have enough good info to go on and some fans are pissed because they don't feel the program is catering enough to them.
It is 2013 and I know this is hard to believe, but information is available on Twitter. Yes, I know you can't believe everything you read on social media, but when multiple journalists post information that is very similar I believe that is a fact. Most journalists aren't going to put their credibility and name on the line and post stuff just to post it.

I guarantee when we get a head coach, Norwood is going to say we got the coach we wanted or that they talked to other coaches but never made an offer to them.
 

It is 2013 and I know this is hard to believe, but information is available on Twitter. Yes, I know you can't believe everything you read on social media, but when multiple journalists post information that is very similar I believe that is a fact. Most journalists aren't going to put their credibility and name on the line and post stuff just to post it.

I guarantee when we get a head coach, Norwood is going to say we got the coach we wanted or that they talked to other coaches but never made an offer to them.

I get how Twitter works I also know it is a great platform for tossing out wild speculation and having people latch onto it as fact. Again I am just looking for the confirmation that NT said the coach won't be able to hire his own assistants, that's it. I think Flip clearly was in play and I am willing to bet the Ryan thing might have been a factor in him turning the job down if it was in fact offered.

And yeah when they hire a guy they will spin him as the ideal candidate much the way football did with Kill. However I don't think they will be foolish enough to say they never offered to anyone else. Coaches turning down jobs is in no way a slight to the program that offered in most cases, it happens all the time in every coaching search.
 

Fans will say what fans will say and so will the media- again if nobody says anything, then nobody cares. Bottom line is that the pressure is on Teague to produce a coach that justifies a 2.5 million payoff to a former coach and passing on a local fan and booster favorite in Flip. If he does the job we will all be happy. If he brings in a B list guy then there is probably no honeymoon for the poor guy and that's too bad.

Imagine a few years ago had Tony Dungy (who never coached college football) come out and made himself available for the Gopher football job and Maturi still hired Kill over a technicality. Imagine what fun that would have been for Kill?

We don't know the entire story with Flip, we have speculation and guess work but have nothing direct from Flip or the U. He was certainly in the mix beyond that we really don't know anything.
 

If the candidate brings a package the AD can't possibly agree to - like nepotism - what's embarrassing is even considering him.

It's apples and oranges, but Bobby Knight had his kid hanging on his coattails (as have many other coaches). I don't get the big deal about Saunders having his kid on staff if he wanted. Ryan is a hometown kid who could probably build up a strong relationship with the local high school scene and I, for one, think that is going to be crucial. We've had a number of D1 players in this state over the past decade and for whatever reason, we've landed (and kept) precious few of them.

EDIT: After reading TAW's post, she did a lot more research than I did on the father/son head coach/assistant coach combos that have existed in recent college basketball history and did a better job explaining the nepotism angle if it indeed does exist.

As for Teague, I don't know if he's an egomaniac or not. I am advanced in age and in my career and what I've observed over the years is that no one ascends to Teague's level without standing on a pile of figurative dead bodies. It's King of the Mountain out there, especially in the athletic world. Pick your cliche. He knows what he wants in this position (or at least I hope he does) and I wouldn't blame him if he thought he knew better than anyone else what was needed. He's the guy sitting in the Big Chair and when you are in the Big Chair, you get both the credit and the blame. Comes with the territory. Does that make him an egomaniac? Probably not. Does that make him someone who may have an out-sized ego? Possibly. Does that make him someone who thinks he understands what is needed in this situation and the candidates who best fit that framework? I sure as heck hope so.
 

Many people seem to assign NT as the egomaniac in this situation and perhaps he is; but I haven't seen this question asked very often-what about Flip's ego? Do we know how he approached the interview with NT & Ellis? Did he assume that NT would genuflect and beg him to take the helm of the Gophers' ship and when that didn't occur, Flip balked at the offer?

Put yourself in NT's shoes-you're making a huge hire for the program (hopefully, the biggest hire during his time at the "U") and you have a local favorite son who has a great deal of support from the masses. Despite that support, there are legitimate questions that exist-age, adjustment to the college game, who will comprise the coaching staff, long-term energy and devotion to the job. While you are ostensibly the boss, you are aware that amongst the boosters of the program, this favored son will garner a great deal of loyalty and could very well compromise your abilities to manage this employee. When you meet with this person for the job, your concerns are not assuaged-perhaps it's the attitude the favored son brings to the interview, perhaps it's the cast of characters posited for the coaching staff (frankly, all the local legends that several GH posters were tossing around as possibilities to join the staff had me concerned), perhaps it's an unwillingness to work together on building a coaching staff-whatever the situation may have been, the hiring boss was left uneasy. And if the rumors are true, that it leaked the reason that favored son wasn't hired because he wasn't able to place his own son on the coaching staff (which frankly, I think doesn't put Flip in a very favorable light), the hiring boss's decision was likely reaffirmed, in realizing that the candidate's relations with the local media are well-connected and smoothly operated.

So I ask you, would you want to be in this position as NT? What if things don't pan out accordingly with Flip-what if whatever concerns NT may have had about hiring him come to roost? What if every closed door meeting with Flip somehow gets leaked to the press, and the scribes paint NT as the nincompoop? What if mediocre results occur on the court, the energy of the Flip hire wans and you are left back where you started-perhaps with the practice facility built or in the process of being built, but with a formerly successful NBA coach not succeeding after following a former NCAA championship winning coach who couldn't succeed at the "U"? What is the national perception of the program then? What is the perception of you? Has your career been sunk?

And all of this would be okay, if you were truly sold on Flip and Flip was your guy; but if not, if you had misgivings about hiring Saunders for any myriad of reasons, why would you choose to step into this situation, especially if the terms you would have been comfortable with were not well received?

Listen, I was on board with Flip as coach and think he could have been a very good hire here, but I also understand the reservations, and I could see NT gauging the public sentiment both through the media and message boards as this and being quite relieved that it didn't work out with Flip. If things didn't go ideally with Flip (practice facility, ace recruiting, upper half Big 10 division finishes, regular appearances in the second weekend of the NCAA tourney), NT would have been in a really difficult position. There's no guarantee that the next coach of the Gophers will be successful, but if you're NT, don't you want that to occur on your terms rather than compromising your position and going down in flames regardless?
 

Many people seem to assign NT as the egomaniac in this situation and perhaps he is; but I haven't seen this question asked very often-what about Flip's ego? Do we know how he approached the interview with NT & Ellis? Did he assume that NT would genuflect and beg him to take the helm of the Gophers' ship and when that didn't occur, Flip balked at the offer?

Put yourself in NT's shoes-you're making a huge hire for the program (hopefully, the biggest hire during his time at the "U") and you have a local favorite son who has a great deal of support from the masses. Despite that support, there are legitimate questions that exist-age, adjustment to the college game, who will comprise the coaching staff, long-term energy and devotion to the job. While you are ostensibly the boss, you are aware that amongst the boosters of the program, this favored son will garner a great deal of loyalty and could very well compromise your abilities to manage this employee. When you meet with this person for the job, your concerns are not assuaged-perhaps it's the attitude the favored son brings to the interview, perhaps it's the cast of characters posited for the coaching staff (frankly, all the local legends that several GH posters were tossing around as possibilities to join the staff had me concerned), perhaps it's an unwillingness to work together on building a coaching staff-whatever the situation may have been, the hiring boss was left uneasy. And if the rumors are true, that it leaked the reason that favored son wasn't hired because he wasn't able to place his own son on the coaching staff (which frankly, I think doesn't put Flip in a very favorable light), the hiring boss's decision was likely reaffirmed, in realizing that the candidate's relations with the local media are well-connected and smoothly operated.

So I ask you, would you want to be in this position as NT? What if things don't pan out accordingly with Flip-what if whatever concerns NT may have had about hiring him come to roost? What if every closed door meeting with Flip somehow gets leaked to the press, and the scribes paint NT as the nincompoop? What if mediocre results occur on the court, the energy of the Flip hire wans and you are left back where you started-perhaps with the practice facility built or in the process of being built, but with a formerly successful NBA coach not succeeding after following a former NCAA championship winning coach who couldn't succeed at the "U"? What is the national perception of the program then? What is the perception of you? Has your career been sunk?

And all of this would be okay, if you were truly sold on Flip and Flip was your guy; but if not, if you had misgivings about hiring Saunders for any myriad of reasons, why would you choose to step into this situation, especially if the terms you would have been comfortable with were not well received?

Listen, I was on board with Flip as coach and think he could have been a very good hire here, but I also understand the reservations, and I could see NT gauging the public sentiment both through the media and message boards as this and being quite relieved that it didn't work out with Flip. If things didn't go ideally with Flip (practice facility, ace recruiting, upper half Big 10 division finishes, regular appearances in the second weekend of the NCAA tourney), NT would have been in a really difficult position. There's no guarantee that the next coach of the Gophers will be successful, but if you're NT, don't you want that to occur on your terms rather than compromising your position and going down in flames regardless?

Of course Flip has an ego. No doubt. If Teague didn't want to deal with it he should have told Saunders so on day 1. Never let this thing fester. Saunders would have gone out and said he wasn't a candidate and we would have a normal search process. Teague delayed dealing with it and when the first round of coaches didn't work out, he had to face it. I agree Teague didn't want him. Why? I think he wanted his own stamp on it. He'll get that and be accountable for better or worse.
 




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