Can Pitino get us to Wisconsin's level?

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Amumu said:
And what, besides your unrealistic, uninformed fantasy, makes this true? Good grief.:confused:
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You're right. We should shoot to be like Purdue, Tennessee, and/or Washington, because trying to be the best and making lofty goals is stupid. Look at Michigan 5 years ago, Ohio St before Thad Matta and Florida prior to Donovan. None of them were dominant until they found their current coaches. My point was style-of-play wise we should be comparing ourselves and striving to be like these teams vs trying to be like Wisconsin.
 

Miles Tarver said:
Seems like Wisconsin is ranked all the time, has a high seed and for the most part does well in the NCAAs. Bo seems to keep the borders closed and just WIN.
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Bo doesn't have the borders closed. They lose talent to Marquette (within the borders) and loses players like Kevon Looney (UCLA), Matt Thomas (ISU), and J.P. Tokoto (North Carolina) to out of state teams. He has also only beaten one team with a better seed in the NCAA tournament in his career and that was Arizona last night. So his NCAA success isn't as consistent as you are making it out to be. His regular season consistency is pretty much second to none though.
 

The Goofy Gopher said:
My point was style-of-play wise we should be comparing ourselves and striving to be like these teams vs trying to be like Wisconsin.
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That's fine, you just totally neglected to mention the emboldened word before, which consequently, made you sound like a lunatic in your original post.

Of course teams want to strive to be like OSU, MSU, Florida, Duke and Kentucky. You and every other team in the country. They have all recently experienced success, and the easy thing to do is to say that you want to be exactly like them. But the intelligent thing to ask is: are you realistically going to accomplish that? If you really think you are going to be the next Duke in the next 5 years by trying to replicate what they do in their situation, more power to you. Does what Duke and Kentucky and MSU each do in their own specific program work in the State of Minnesota? Do you really think that each of these programs are exactly the same and are all replicating each other and all Minnesota has to do is choose one and plug it in?

Or... do you recognize that you live in a totally different area of the country- in a state that doesn't have the same kind of talent pool as those other programs. A completely different situation in a program that lacks a fraction of the history and tradition and resources that those others do. Or, can you come back down to earth and try to do it the hard way? Do you try to find a different way to do it that fits your situation like Bo Ryan has done at Wisconsin? I realize that if you had a free choice, you would pick being Duke than Wisconsin. Of course. Is that the reality of your situation?

Coincidentally, perhaps you should take a look at your football coach, because he is very similar to Bo Ryan and is doing it the right way. He didn't come out and try to force Minnesota into Oregon's shoes just because they are popular and have had success. He's doing things the less-sexy way. The hard way. The way that fits Minnesota's reality. If you ask me, I think Minnesota's reality in basketball is very similar to Wisconsin's and I don't know why you wouldn't want try and replicate a model that has clearly worked. But, you won't, I'm sure.

It's astounding to me how far some of you will reach to criticize Bo Ryan no matter happens. The guy is an honest man and a teacher and a hell of a coach and an all around good person. He has run a clean program that keeps every single kid in until they get their college diploma and he doesn't cheat. He brought a basketball nobody program in Wisconsin to the point of reaching the Final Four in 13 years and yet you continue to find a way to trash UW because they aren't Kentucky or MSU or Duke. Of course Wisconsin isn't. And Minnesota isn't either.
 

MadtownGopher said:
He has also only beaten one team with a better seed in the NCAA tournament in his career and that was Arizona last night.
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That's completely false. (12)Wisconsin beat (5)Florida State as recently as 2009. Don't let facts get in the way of your expert analysis, though.
 

I get the beating higher seeds thing, but if you keep getting seeded highly (they're usually 4s +/-1) you face fewer higher seeds. Not a big deal to me.
 


Amumu said:
That's completely false. (12)Wisconsin beat (5)Florida State as recently as 2009. Don't let facts get in the way of your expert analysis, though.
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As recently as 2009. And the time before that? Never. He has beaten two higher seeds in 14 years. How many lower seeds has he lost to? I am not looking it up but it is more than 2.
 

mootrack said:
I get the beating higher seeds thing, but if you keep getting seeded highly (they're usually 4s +/-1) you face fewer higher seeds. Not a big deal to me.
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Look at the losing to lower seeds then.
 

alchemy2u said:
You take Kaminsky and Dekker away and they are a NIT team. This is the first time in years that Wisconsin can win without using a boat anchor to slow down the game. You have to give Bo credit in that he knows how to win with much less talent, but typically it is painful to watch.

The U will be back at the top of the B1G once he gets players that can run his full system. Pitino is not yet running his style of defense and pressure. The big difference that will move the U past Wisc is that we will run a fast paced style that will attract top level athletic players. Wisc will always be known for a slow methodical style that will not attract the top athletic players.
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Love the "if you take away..." analysis. Could be said about any team.
 

I just have to ask a question: Why is it that almost every time Bucky does something well on an athletic front, somebody asks if we should strive to be more like them? Why not just leave the drunkards out of what we should and should not be doing with our programs? Let Pitino and Kill find their own direction and philosophies and leave the cheese-brains out east to their seemingly perfect little sports utopia.

Even if we tried to replicate what they're doing, it doesn't necessarily mean it would work. Why? Because every job and situation is different and unique. Personally, I appreciate the effort and performances that Wisconsin under Bo Ryan consistently put together. But that doesn't mean we should automatically strive to be like them. Find your own path, hire good people, recruit good kids and players and the rest takes care of itself.
 




Wisconsin is a good program. Bo is a good coach. They have been to one final four now under Bo. I think it is pretty realistic to say that if Pitino stays in Minnesota he will be able to accomplish just as much in fifteen years. Clem had success but we know how tainted that was. Wisconsin was not a good program prior to Bo Ryan. Bennet had one good year as the coach of the badgers. I am am pretty confident that Pitino is on the right track.
 

Bo is what, 66 or 67 years old? Now that he has made the Final 4, any chance this is his last year?

The guy is an amazing coach who has consistently gotten far more out of his teams than their talent deserves. He also plays a style direct out the 1940s that is so boring only a Badger fan could enjoy it. Let's face it, if all teams played the way Wisconsin does, the popularity of college basketball would be similar to that of hockey.
 




MRJ said:
I just have to ask a question: Why is it that almost every time Bucky does something well on an athletic front, somebody asks if we should strive to be more like them? Why not just leave the drunkards out of what we should and should not be doing with our programs? Let Pitino and Kill find their own direction and philosophies and leave the cheese-brains out east to their seemingly perfect little sports utopia.

Even if we tried to replicate what they're doing, it doesn't necessarily mean it would work. Why? Because every job and situation is different and unique. Personally, I appreciate the effort and performances that Wisconsin under Bo Ryan consistently put together. But that doesn't mean we should automatically strive to be like them. Find your own path, hire good people, recruit good kids and players and the rest takes care of itself.
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Other than the style of ball they are playing this year, I would hate to see Minnesota play more like WI. Michigan State and Michigan are both better programs. Model after them. It doesn't matter anyway, Richard is modeling his program after better examples than Bo Ryan.....guys like his dad and Billy Donovan. Not bad mentors.
 

If we want to be an elite team consistently in the B1G it will be done like the football guys say "brick by brick". Every game, every recruit we get, every dollar that's donated etc. will be important in building this program into what we want it to be. Pitino and his staff can only do so much as fans we have to do our part too.
 

XMan said:
Other than the style of ball they are playing this year, I would hate to see Minnesota play more like WI. Michigan State and Michigan are both better programs. Model after them. It doesn't matter anyway, Richard is modeling his program after better examples than Bo Ryan.....guys like his dad and Billy Donovan. Not bad mentors.
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That was kind of my thinking as well to be honest. There is no one specific model that works. Can you take some aspects from other programs have them work? Sure. But this whole "we have to pattern ourselves after so-and-so" line of thought doesn't automatically guarantee success, regardless of who you pattern it after.
 


mootrack said:
I get the beating higher seeds thing, but if you keep getting seeded highly (they're usually 4s +/-1) you face fewer higher seeds. Not a big deal to me.
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Coming into this year they were 1-7 against higher seeds under Bo Ryan. Not sure how that differs from the average but that isn't very good.

That really doesn't have much to do with this year however.
 

howeda7 said:
Let's not have threads like this. Wiscy has a nice program. Congrats on their 'win' tonight.

But I'd much rather model ourselves after someone else. Can he take us where Beilein's taken Michigan? I'd much rather be there, than with a plodding offense that relies on an angry coach intimidating refs and has beaten a higher seed in the NCAA's exactly twice in 13 years.
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I wouldn't call this Wisconsin team "plodding." I would have said that about some other Ryan teams but not this one. All the guys on CBS/TNT/TBS had the same observation: this team seems significantly better than the Wisconsin teams they've seen in the past. They may have not beaten a lot of highly ranked teams in the tournament over Ryan's tenure, but this particular team beat 3 of the tournament's #1 seeds during this season. Except for a bad stretch in the middle of the season where they lost five of six games, this team has played like one of the best teams in the country this year.

As far as objecting to a thread like this, some of us just like to watch the game when it's played well regardless of the identity of the team.
 

mootrack said:
Not this year. This team plays differently.
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The stats don't show that there style is much different however. They still rank towards the bottom in all of college basketball in possessions per game and average length of each possession.

What they are really good at this year is offensive efficiency (points scored per possession). Anything above 1.1 is very good, they're at 1.134 which is 7th best in all of college basketball. Last year they were at 1.021. That's a huge difference.
 

GophersInIowa said:
The stats don't show that there style is much different however. They still rank towards the bottom in all of college basketball in possessions per game and average length of each possession.

What they are really good at this year is offensive efficiency (points scored per possession). Anything above 1.1 is very good, they're at 1.134 which is 7th best in all of college basketball. Last year they were at 1.021. That's a huge difference.
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Fair enough. I think it is a beautiful thing, I like that swing/motion style... but I like Virginia's system even more.
 

GophersInIowa said:
The stats don't show that there style is much different however. They still rank towards the bottom in all of college basketball in possessions per game and average length of each possession.

What they are really good at this year is offensive efficiency (points scored per possession). Anything above 1.1 is very good, they're at 1.134 which is 7th best in all of college basketball. Last year they were at 1.021. That's a huge difference.
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The biggest offensive difference is, pretty much, Kaminsky. Hate the stupid Badgers, but I was amazed at his ability to score. A tall inside/outside threat is one of the toughest things to stop in basketball, as there's not a good defense to use against it.

On the other end of the court, Wisconsin continues to play the Bo Ryan philosophy of put your hands up, and bang your opponent with your chest. You come away with the realization that the Badgers are taught how-to-foul-and-get-away-with-it by Ryan. Put less finger tips on your opponents, which gets called even though it's uneffective; instead bounce them around with your chest so they get knocked off balance, and this is not called. Undercut the shooter so he is uncomfortable about jumping. Tap the shooter's elbow, which is extremely effective but hard to notice. Hook your opponent discretely inside, don't extend the arm. Body-bounce your opponent to defend near the hoop, don't swat downward with the arms. The art of getting away with cheating in this way doesn't come out of a vacuum.
 

cncmin said:
The biggest offensive difference is, pretty much, Kaminsky. Hate the stupid Badgers, but I was amazed at his ability to score. A tall inside/outside threat is one of the toughest things to stop in basketball, as there's not a good defense to use against it.

On the other end of the court, Wisconsin continues to play the Bo Ryan philosophy of put your hands up, and bang your opponent with your chest. You come away with the realization that the Badgers are taught how-to-foul-and-get-away-with-it by Ryan. Put less finger tips on your opponents, which gets called even though it's uneffective; instead bounce them around with your chest so they get knocked off balance, and this is not called. Undercut the shooter so he is uncomfortable about jumping. Tap the shooter's elbow, which is extremely effective but hard to notice. Hook your opponent discretely inside, don't extend the arm. Body-bounce your opponent to defend near the hoop, don't swat downward with the arms. The art of getting away with cheating in this way doesn't come out of a vacuum.
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I dislike Wisconsin and The Grinch as much as any Gopher fan, but this could simply be considered good coaching, couldn't it?
 


I believe if someone like Teague would have been hired in 2002 rather than Joel "culture of no expectations" Maturi, we would be at their level now. They have to deal with Marquette in state and we don't have anything like that, so for us not to be thriving in basketball is absolutely ridiculous.
 




SJUgopher said:
Ah, yes...moral victories. We lead the nation in them.
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Look no further than the thread where 30% of posters would rather be in the consolation tourney instead of the one that matters...
 

John Galt said:
Look no further than the thread where 30% of posters would rather be in the consolation tourney instead of the one that matters...
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You misread the poll.

It wasn't would you like to be in the NCAA vs NIT, it was in hindsight would you rather be Iowa or Minnesota right now.
 

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