gopher1956
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Agreed - it called Coaching NOT recruiting
WE are missing a COACH.
WE are missing a COACH.
Brewster the Recruiter
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dpodoll68
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Tell you what. Let's have Brewster coach the Gators, and Meyer coach the Gophers, and who do you think would win?
Recruiting is obviously not the ONLY thing. Nobody said it was. But show me a team that has won a national title recently whose on-field talent was not filled with 4- and 5-star recruits, and I'll show you my lovely oceanside estate in downtown Hopkins.
gopher1956
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I Love my view in Hopkins
Average players with a great COACH is what we need in Minny.
Average players with a great COACH is what we need in Minny.
This team will never have a plentiful amount of 4 or 5 star players on it, so we will never win a national championship. That was easy. Problem is, on a team like ours, you better D.amn well have a coach who knows what he is doing when you don't have the talent that a lot of other teams you are playing against have.
If Brewster were to step in and coach the gators right now, I guarantee they would have lost a game by now. Urban Meyer is not only a manager of the team, but he actually COACHES the players and makes great play calls. Florida was actually in a downward trend before he arrived on campus. He immediately had that team playing at a higher level than the previous coach did. He knows how to have a team ready week in and week out which is why he almost won a national championship at fricken Utah for christ sakes. Ron Zook was at Florida. what happened with that again?
lakesgopher
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jackiO your one of the most negative posters on here! reading your posts makes me believe you thought we would win the big ten this year. you have no patience and if brew is fired, i cant wait to read your posts when that guy doesnt win when he walks through the door. i dont believe your a rational gophers fan...you remind me of rush limbaugh or ed schultz...calm down!
zook stacked florida's roster with top notch talent. meyer already proved he could coach and recruit at utah, when he walked into the door at florida he inherited a rock star team. when your already a good coach to begin with, it would be a pretty easy transition.
you have to be a complete fool to compare urban meyer/ron zook to mason/brewster! and if you want to try comparing those powerhouse programs to minny....this is what i will do from now on when i read your posts, and i quote: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
lakesgopher
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how about great players with a great coach? or would you rather have what we at minny are used to...average talent, average coach, weak non conf schedules, and losing to wisconsin every year like mason did
I was comparing Brewster to Zook you twit. And my point is proven, Zook and Brewster are basically the same coach. Zook stacked the team with talent, and he couldn't do sh.it with the team, leading me to believe Brewster would have the same results.
lakesgopher
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so your going to tell me that zook wouldnt have been successful if given his 4th year? would you also tell me ty willingham would have flopped if given a 4th year at notre dame? so your willing to go out on a limb and say these guys are all bad coaches, and cant develop players, but it seems to me all of these coaches who missed out on a 4th year did develop their own. i have to imagine zook and willingham spent a hell of a lot more time developing their players then big charlie and urban!
in the end, jackiO who knows more about football then all even though she probably never played a single snap of football other then when her brothers made her the tackling dummy in her life, has to believe that urban meyer did more to develop zooks recruits in 1 season then zook did in 3 years. the same goes for big charlie and ty??? because if thats what your saying then i will be sure to believe you buwhahahahahah
lakesgopher
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by the way, zook went 16-8 in the sec while he was there...23-14 overall...yes i will testify zook can coach as well as recruit...but again jacki-your right he didnt do sh.t at florida
Oh yea, that record represents Florida's esteemed football program nicely doesn't it? Please tell me what Urban Meyers record has been since he took over. Thanks and come again.
We will never know because programs like that do not deal with mediocrity at best.
lakesgopher
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your dumb!!! hahahahaha your telling me zook was able to get illinois to a rose bowl but developing his kids wouldnt have been equal to meyer...its an unanswerable question that you cant deny! and you again will...so on that note again buwhahahahahah
Umm................ yea. I bet the Illinois fans feel like that was 20 years ago by the looks of it now. Plus, every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut here or there.
lakesgopher
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well i wouldnt call going 16-8 in the sec mediocre...good try though. and programs "like florida" can fire coaches with winning records because their program is a powerhouse.
you tell me who the next urban meyer is jackiO? you dont have a clue, no one does, i dont have class today so i will destroy all of your moronic negative gopher hating posts! zook is a good coach and a good recruiter, every coach goes through their ups and downs...would you also say tressel is a bad coach? how about paterno? usc just got spanked by stanford...does that mean carrol is over-rated as well? get real...you remind me of a south park episode:
jackiO says to gopher nation:
"hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate"
lakesgopher
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i really doubt illinois fans think the rose bowl feels like 20 years ago...they probably only remember their dominace during the 90's when michigan sucked
Okay. It's called track record buddy. Why don't you think before you post really, really bad arguments.
lakesgopher
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are you talking zook's track record?
50PoundHead
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I feel like a commercial during a boxing match.
Not to parse it down too much, but I too haven't been bowled over by our commits this year. I tend to look at other offers as much as the star-ratings myself. But that doesn't mean these kids won't develop and contribute with some becoming good Big Ten players.
Back to round whatever between lakesgopher and jackiO.
Not to parse it down too much, but I too haven't been bowled over by our commits this year. I tend to look at other offers as much as the star-ratings myself. But that doesn't mean these kids won't develop and contribute with some becoming good Big Ten players.
Back to round whatever between lakesgopher and jackiO.
lakesgopher
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well im going to assume you are! im also going to assume you spent this afternoon speaking from the hip rather then taking 2 seconds to look something up! zook's first head coaching job was at florida. he went 23-14 overall and 16-8 in the sec. this is just a gut feeling but i think the sec is a better conference then the big ten. im also going to go out on a limb and say its easier to recruit to florida then illinois or minny. im going to also say if you go 16-8 in the sec you know what your doing. huge tradition and fan following in florida.
then you try and compare brew to zook. both are very good recruiters. zook made the rose bowl in 3 years. and the last 2 seasons have fallen to crap. i would assume he forgot how to coach. brew has no track record yet. started late recruiting when he took over in 07, was left a terrible team. there was no depth, even you jackiO have to admit our athletes are looking bigger and faster each season. weber has been inconsistant but gray has looked a little shook at times and at other times both gray and weber looked amazing. none of us know whether brew is going to get this program winning BT titles, but comparing coaches in different schools and situations is pretty much ridiculous! so thanks for playing jackiO buwawahhahahahaha
then you try and compare brew to zook. both are very good recruiters. zook made the rose bowl in 3 years. and the last 2 seasons have fallen to crap. i would assume he forgot how to coach. brew has no track record yet. started late recruiting when he took over in 07, was left a terrible team. there was no depth, even you jackiO have to admit our athletes are looking bigger and faster each season. weber has been inconsistant but gray has looked a little shook at times and at other times both gray and weber looked amazing. none of us know whether brew is going to get this program winning BT titles, but comparing coaches in different schools and situations is pretty much ridiculous! so thanks for playing jackiO buwawahhahahahaha
Recruiting is "down" in the sense that they don't have as many studs that we can probably expect to make early contributions. There are more guys who I would say are more projects, guys who will be able to develop. They have some of the physical attributes, but won't be instant stars, most likely, without some development in their craft. They are still currently a top 35 class however regardless of what service you look at. It does seem that ESPN and Rivals rate our players higher than Scout does, which could solely be a matter of looking at potential more than their current level. All I know is that this class we have currently committed still ranks among the best we have seen in forever. Especially if we can land a couple guys like Ash, Onyeali, Beau, and maybe a surprise guy.
By the way, that 2.73 star rating includes two unranked guys, who will at minimum end up being 2 star players if they're evaluated. If you exclude the two unranked guys, our average is 3 stars. If you assume they are 2's, which they are at least that, then you have 2.91. So yeah, those numbers can be misleading. Class isn't as good as the first two so far, but it is not that weak at all. I mean really, this is coming off an era when we were thrilled to get three star athletes at all, and when 2.73 would have been regarded as our best class ever. That's not the case now because we just came off two classes better than that one (3.07 and 3.05). I think we're doing okay recruiting-wise, and yes, I understand the offer list argument. I'm just making note for comparison sake.
By the way, that 2.73 star rating includes two unranked guys, who will at minimum end up being 2 star players if they're evaluated. If you exclude the two unranked guys, our average is 3 stars. If you assume they are 2's, which they are at least that, then you have 2.91. So yeah, those numbers can be misleading. Class isn't as good as the first two so far, but it is not that weak at all. I mean really, this is coming off an era when we were thrilled to get three star athletes at all, and when 2.73 would have been regarded as our best class ever. That's not the case now because we just came off two classes better than that one (3.07 and 3.05). I think we're doing okay recruiting-wise, and yes, I understand the offer list argument. I'm just making note for comparison sake.
GophersInIowa
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The 2.74 star average is because there are two players that don't have any stars yet. At the very least, they will be 2 star recruits, bringing the average up to 2.91. If they're both rated as 3 stars, the average goes up to 3.00.
I agree that this class is looking to be not as good as the last two, but it's still better than we've had compared to most in the last 20 years. If we land one or two big recruits like Henderson or someone changes their mind on signing day like Carter did last year, it will quickly turn into a very good signing class.
Winnipegopher
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I don't follow recruiting like some but it seems to me unfair to compare partial classes with full classes as the high level players with lots of offers take their time. I know Carter and Gray both committed in Janaury of their year and I suspect many of the others are later than mid-November. A quick google search reveals Cooper announced in February.
Low ranked guys commit early, those with options take their time.
Low ranked guys commit early, those with options take their time.
Yep, Cooper was a signing day switch, along with Carter. Gray was during the AA game. Those are huge swings in recruiting that don't usually happen until late. If Henderson by chance signs with us, that will change the entire outlook on this class like that.
polar bear29
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Some data on Brewsters classes so far, info compiled per Rivals Database
2008 - 25/29 (86%) recruits had 1 BCS offer, 14/29 (48%) had 3 or more BCS offers. Total BCS offers in class were 85 - equating to 2.93 BCS offers per recruit.
2009 - 13/20 (65%) had 1 BCS offer, 8/20 (40%) had 3 or more. Total BCS offers in the class was 53 - 2.65 per recruit
2010 (to date) - 15/23 (65%) have 1 BCS offer, 6/23 (26%) have 3 or more (Gjere and Edwards not included in here, but pretty sure they may have more offers than listed). Total BCS offers in class are at 45 - 1.96 per recruit.
I think this shows that we have some good athletes/players in the pipeline that are young and just need to get experience. But, looks like this class is not quite up to the past classes standards. The coaches seemed to have taken some lightly recruited players very early (i.e. Lewis, Veazie, Mitchell), they must see something they really like to take their commitments so early in the process. We will see how they close out the class though, could have strong finish or very average.
2008 - 25/29 (86%) recruits had 1 BCS offer, 14/29 (48%) had 3 or more BCS offers. Total BCS offers in class were 85 - equating to 2.93 BCS offers per recruit.
2009 - 13/20 (65%) had 1 BCS offer, 8/20 (40%) had 3 or more. Total BCS offers in the class was 53 - 2.65 per recruit
2010 (to date) - 15/23 (65%) have 1 BCS offer, 6/23 (26%) have 3 or more (Gjere and Edwards not included in here, but pretty sure they may have more offers than listed). Total BCS offers in class are at 45 - 1.96 per recruit.
I think this shows that we have some good athletes/players in the pipeline that are young and just need to get experience. But, looks like this class is not quite up to the past classes standards. The coaches seemed to have taken some lightly recruited players very early (i.e. Lewis, Veazie, Mitchell), they must see something they really like to take their commitments so early in the process. We will see how they close out the class though, could have strong finish or very average.
Pewterschmidt
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Don't expect a big jump when the 2 recruits get assigned stars. Just sampled a dozen schools right around the #53 rating for average stars and more than half had 1 or more recruits that were starless. It would be one thing if it's just the Gophers with 2 players yet to be evaluated. They're not. Many others will get a similar bump, rendering the bump in the average star rating less potent for the Gophs in the rankings.
Also, this star rating system is just bogus to begin with. Give me offers. Just proving the point that even the star system thinks it's a down year for the Gophs compared to the last 2.
Yet no one is quite giving reasons as to why it's obviously down. I really want to hear what people think. Seriously, 14 of 22 recruits in this class so far can be characterized no other way than "lightly recruited". That's a real concern for a program that brought in a coach for the primary reason of being known as a top notch recruiter. I'm not expecting to compete with USC or Florida for the best class in the country but when 70% of our class would consider Purdue(if they had one) to be their best offer other than the Minnesota's offer, that's not what I had envisioned.
This is what people that hang their hat on "improved recruiting" don't take into account. After you eliminate the large majority of 4 and 5 star players that most programs outside the "name" programs are not going to get, ranking the remaining players is extremely difficult. A three star guy may be a perfect fit for Iowa and be a horrible fit for Wisconsin based on the systems they run. A different player may be perfect for Minnesota and not a good fit for Texas Tech. There are a number of variables involved and how the recruiting services ranks the remaining players after the obvious ones that everyone would want to have is meaningless.
The only thing that matters is how is the coaching staff going to coach and develop the players that they recruit. That is it. If you believe there is a big difference between the 25th class and the 45th class then you are crazy. For many of the reasons Pewter has stated, the rankings are seriously flawed. The seniors on the Badgers team have gone 36-13 and they were the 33rd class according to rivals. The juniors were the 42nd rated class. There were 5 four stars in both classes. One never played because of injury, one is in the NFL at a postion he was not recruited for and one was a bust. The other two are contributors.
It is not about the ratings and who thinks you are recruiting well. It is about finding kids that fit what you want to do and making them good football players. If Gophers fans question whether Brewster can do that, who could blame them?
The only thing that matters is how is the coaching staff going to coach and develop the players that they recruit. That is it. If you believe there is a big difference between the 25th class and the 45th class then you are crazy. For many of the reasons Pewter has stated, the rankings are seriously flawed. The seniors on the Badgers team have gone 36-13 and they were the 33rd class according to rivals. The juniors were the 42nd rated class. There were 5 four stars in both classes. One never played because of injury, one is in the NFL at a postion he was not recruited for and one was a bust. The other two are contributors.
It is not about the ratings and who thinks you are recruiting well. It is about finding kids that fit what you want to do and making them good football players. If Gophers fans question whether Brewster can do that, who could blame them?
Winnipegopher
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Ok I'll try to give you reasons. I do agree with your premise but I am not as sold by the quality of the data.
1. The date, good players sign later. We'll still get some that have stronger offer lists.
2. This is the big one. You disregard the rating system but you place weight in offers reported by the same people. Coaches cannot comment on record about offers so who do they get reports from? The athlete or other recruiting people. This is a very inexact process and I suspect that many of our recruits could "claim" more offers. In fact, I bet Brewster could call up soemone at Rivals and say, "Boy you missed alot of our recruit's offers" and Rivals would make a few phone calls and all of a sudden you get new offers. Are they real offers or just interest? Only the coach knows for sure and he can't comment.
3. Since we are talking about offers being an indicator of success, maybe kids are looking at the past two classes as being stacked and thus they are unlikely to play early. I don't tihnk this is valid but if the premise is talent based on offer lists, it should be considered.
4. This is the elephant in the room but should be brought up. Kids with options may worry about Brew's job status. While the first three classes could be fairly certain Brew will be around, it is not so certain now. Brew needs a big season to cement himself. Winnig the last two this year would be a huge boost for stabilty.
1. The date, good players sign later. We'll still get some that have stronger offer lists.
2. This is the big one. You disregard the rating system but you place weight in offers reported by the same people. Coaches cannot comment on record about offers so who do they get reports from? The athlete or other recruiting people. This is a very inexact process and I suspect that many of our recruits could "claim" more offers. In fact, I bet Brewster could call up soemone at Rivals and say, "Boy you missed alot of our recruit's offers" and Rivals would make a few phone calls and all of a sudden you get new offers. Are they real offers or just interest? Only the coach knows for sure and he can't comment.
3. Since we are talking about offers being an indicator of success, maybe kids are looking at the past two classes as being stacked and thus they are unlikely to play early. I don't tihnk this is valid but if the premise is talent based on offer lists, it should be considered.
4. This is the elephant in the room but should be brought up. Kids with options may worry about Brew's job status. While the first three classes could be fairly certain Brew will be around, it is not so certain now. Brew needs a big season to cement himself. Winnig the last two this year would be a huge boost for stabilty.
If I had to guess, I'd say a big part of Brewster's pitch has been along the lines of 'We're making big changes, you're going to play the first game in a new stadium, you're going to be part of the team that turns around football in MN, etc...' and now he's hit a soft spot in the timeline. He's been here long enough that he can't argue the whole new team bit, so he's got to win in the next two seasons with the recruits he got, and use that hopeful improvement on the field to build his new pitch.
porscheboxster
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First of all I think it's way to early to judge on how the coaching staff is doing at developing the talent they recruited so I have no clue if the players in these highly rated classes at least according to rivals and ESPN (some say there are faults in these recruiting services and I'm not an expert or have any desire to study and evaluate a bunch of kids that will commit to other schools because I only care about the student athletes that decide to come to the greatest University around (that last comment is my opinion btw I have no facts to support that haha.) That being said I have a hard time with JackiO saying the coaching staff sucks at improving talent. To me this statement is stating none of the current juniors and seniors have improved very much while at the U of M. While not every player has developed into an all american I've enjoyed seeing the improvements of many of the upper classmen. For example, one of the players I've really enjoyed watching improve over the past 3 years first developed into a very good special forces player and then even went a step further and developed into a pretty good LBer and I think even won a player of the week honor (could be wrong on that). Also for all you rivals and ESPN recruiting junkies I think a many of these student athletes went above their star ratings. That being said has Brewster been perfect? I don't think so as I'll be critical about all of the staff movements (some are his fault as he fired them and others I feel he had no control over). I believe this really set back a couple the upperclassmen especially on offense so I hope in the years to come the U has more stability in the coaching staff. Thanks.
I appreciate your opinion as it was a well thought out post definitely, but to me when you are last in Defense and Offense in the Big ten, that doesn't bode well for player development.