Ben Johnson Reasonable Expectations

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BarnBurner said:
So the strategy led to poor rebounding. That’s a choice.

What will the year two strategy be regarding rebounding? Are you saying it will now change? To what?

Rebound or not allow transition. Right?
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If Fox and Ihnen had been on this year's team the philosophy would have been different. The strategy was based on talent available.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You really don't know what I'm talking about? It's really too complicated for you or are you just doing that weird pretending to not understand thing you do. Hitting on 3 of 12 people isn't impressive. He didn't do a good job in the portal. If we had 3 scholarships to give and hit on all of them, kudos. If you have 12 scholarships to give and you only hit on 3, you didn't do well.

As far the point you're failing to make. I've said numerous times that I don't blame Ben for the amount of talent he brought in via the portal, you're the one with trouble comprehending.

In the post that started your hissy fit, I went to great lengths explaining that I realize Ben walked into a difficult position last year. I then posted this "I don't blame them for the people they added, I was merely pointing out that talent needs to be better (as a whole) for us to improve. But I really don't blame Ben, at all, for the talent he brought in last year."

I don't blame him for the talent he brought in, but I do expect significantly more talent being brought in via the portal. We couldn't give away Big 10 scholarships. Two of the people we gave those away to should never be on a Big 10 roster. Those players SHOULD have received significant minutes playing in the Big 10. You're acting like Ogele and Daniels were buried in the depth chart, they weren't. The fact is that Ben couldn't GIVE Big 10 minutes away to even mid-major level talent. For the 10th time in this thread, I don't blame him for that. But I do expect he will do a better job in the portal.
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You’re not throwing another 500 word hissy fit here. Got it.

Guess we’ll have to wait until the next time we have 12 open scholarships and a new coach in April, to find out if the 11 & 12 players not being in the rotation is considered a failure.
 

Some guy said:
I mean if you go back to the 1960s I’m sure you can find dozens of guys

The fact that people on here won’t be worried if we aren’t winning in year 3 speaks to how sad and pathetic the program is. I still hold out hope we will be better. And if we aren’t, I will be mad and hope we make a change.
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What’s winning then? Is 7 B1G games winning since they make the NCAA? What if they win 20 games next year then 13 on year 3? What’s the definition of winning? If we win 10-14 games the next three years well of course that’s not good, but what about 16-18?
 

Gopherfan84 said:
What’s winning then? Is 7 B1G games winning since they make the NCAA? What if they win 20 games next year then 13 on year 3? What’s the definition of winning? If we win 10-14 games the next three years well of course that’s not good, but what about 16-18?
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Mid to late 90’s gophers.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
What concerns me the most is that the Gophers have no guards. I don't think Thiam is a B1G player. They'll have Carrington as a true freshman and that's it. The Gophers still need 3 more guards if not 4, to be competitive next year. That is a huge hole to climb out of.
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Unless the kid from California decommitted and I didn't hear about it, they should have two freshman guards coming in next year for a total of 9 players on the roster so far.
 

cjbfbp said:
Unless the kid from California decommitted and I didn't hear about it, they should have two freshman guards coming in next year for a total of 9 players on the roster so far.
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More of a wing, no?
 





Bob - on the portal. Assuming the Gophers get back to a more typical approach of bringing in 3-4 HS recruits a year, then they only need to fill maybe 2-3 spots a year through the portal or grad transfers. That should allow them to target guys who meet specific needs - size, rebounding, etc.
looking for 2 or 3 guys is a different situation than bringing in 7-8 guys.

Obviously, that is no guarantee. I completely agree that the Gophs need some difference makers. whether they come from HS or the portal doesn't matter.

on rebounding - better athletes. guys who are stronger and can jump higher. I love Eric Curry's effort, but the guy can't jump anymore. Next year's roster is already going to be more athletic - and that is without any additions through the portal.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
What concerns me the most is that the Gophers have no guards. I don't think Thiam is a B1G player. They'll have Carrington as a true freshman and that's it. The Gophers still need 3 more guards if not 4, to be competitive next year. That is a huge hole to climb out of.

The great teams in the tournament always have great guard play. They go 3, 4, even 5 guards deep. We haven't had depth at guard since Clem was fired. That's why we are perpetually stuck in the basement.
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Good point, right now Thiam is our only returning guard on scholarship. Ramburg and Purcell are the other returning guards and are both walkons. We do need to add at least 5 guards to the roster. Carrington is the only guard coming in so we need 4 portal guards.
 

Ragnor said:
Good point, right now Thiam is our only returning guard on scholarship. Ramburg and Purcell are the other returning guards and are both walkons. We do need to add at least 5 guards to the roster. Carrington is the only guard coming in so we need 4 portal guards.
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I think they need 3 guards from the portal. Two of those with the ability to bring the ball up the floor. The California kid is also a guard/wing. Battle will also play some wing/3
 




BarnBurner said:
Well, you have a darn high bar then based on your definition here. CBJ has a lot of work to do to get to your own bar.
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I don't think the bar matches the expectations you seem to share on here quite often. My bar is more at the time period you mentioned. McCaffery's success at Iowa is my initial goal with Painter at Purdue being the dream. I just think so many of us (not just you) over glorify the 1990's success. This program can be great, but there is more work to it than many other ones we like to compare ourselves too and it will take some time. That was over 20 years ago and no kid that is alive right now has seen it.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
I don't think the bar matches the expectations you seem to share on here quite often. My bar is more at the time period you mentioned. McCaffery's success at Iowa is my initial goal with Painter at Purdue being the dream. I just think so many of us (not just you) over glorify the 1990's success. This program can be great, but there is more work to it than many other ones we like to compare ourselves too and it will take some time. That was over 20 years ago and no kid that is alive right now has seen it.
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Please point out said expectations. I have said multiple times getting to the NCAA and winning games. Conference titles mean less to me, and I have stated that. I'll wait.
 

BarnBurner said:
Please point out said expectations. I have said multiple times getting to the NCAA and winning games. Conference titles mean less to me, and I have stated that. I'll wait.
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If you stopped there, then sure. You typically call out numerous posters for having weak expectations and your reasoning for success is to "just win".
 

Gopherfan84 said:
If you stopped there, then sure. You typically call out numerous posters for having weak expectations and your reasoning for success is to "just win".
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Sorry, stating they are making excuses is quite different from expectations. And make no mistake - they are making excuses and setting the stage to make more excuses.

Still waiting.
 

BarnBurner said:
More of a wing, no?
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was more of a combo guard until he hit his growth spurt. now he is more of a combo wing. 2/3 type guy.

Portal wishlist in order of need
1 True PG
1 Center
1 back up PG
1 2/3 guy

as far as expectations go for next year....for me....better then this year. and BJ 100% needs to hit on both the PG & Center transfer portal in order to make that happen. Other than battle, we will basically be bringing in an entire new team again on the court.

by year 3 he needs to be right there in the mix for an NCAA bid.....and a better handle on the roster as a whole. he needs to have the roster in a shape where we are not out begging for bodies in the transfer market. (especially at the PG position. we need some stability at that premium position)

the 2023 recruiting class will tell us a lot as well. hes been building these relationships now. Lots of talent once again right here in state.
Can he keep Chatman home?
Can he get 1 of Winter/Bath? if they are able to they take both?
Can he get Kapke?
What about Janicki? tough as nails and when hes on his range is unlimited. Col State & WF in early on him.
And just as important. how about out of state? Can he prove to others outside of the state that this is the place to come?
 


Gophs24 said:
was more of a combo guard until he hit his growth spurt. now he is more of a combo wing. 2/3 type guy.

Portal wishlist in order of need
1 True PG
1 Center
1 back up PG
1 2/3 guy
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That pretty much matches my order of preference. First of all, I hope he does recruit 4 transfers instead of 3. He should abandon his reluctance (as he stated last summer), at least temporarily, to fill all 13 spots with scholarship players. He said something like "you can't keep 13 players happy" but no coach ever lost his job or the support of the fanbase because he didn't keep all 13 players happy.

I could be wrong but I suspect Johnson will want to give the substantial majority of front court minutes to Ihnen and Fox because they are short-timers, he owes them to some degree, and they each lost a year due to unfortunate injuries. Because of that, it may make more sense to recruit a younger transfer big man who showed some potential in his first year but is willing to come off the bench until he's an upperclassman.
 

cjbfbp said:
That pretty much matches my order of preference. First of all, I hope he does recruit 4 transfers instead of 3. He should abandon his reluctance (as he stated last summer), at least temporarily, to fill all 13 spots with scholarship players. He said something like "you can't keep 13 players happy" but no coach ever lost his job or the support of the fanbase because he didn't keep all 13 players happy.
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This type of mentality from Ben is what really bothers me. Because Ben is a good guy and seemingly a people pleaser, he seems more concerned about keeping players happy.

It's his job to field the most competitive team possible. Fleck has consistently said since he arrived that he's going to continue to try and out recruit the players already on the team. That breeds a competitive and winning culture.

If you don't like being at the end of the bench, work harder. And if players transfer because they weren't good enough to play, so what? Go recruit better players. That's why he was hired.
 

cjbfbp said:
I could be wrong but I suspect Johnson will want to give the substantial majority of front court minutes to Ihnen and Fox because they are short-timers, he owes them to some degree, and they each lost a year due to unfortunate injuries. Because of that, it may make more sense to recruit a younger transfer big man who showed some potential in his first year but is willing to come off the bench until he's an upperclassman.
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I'm really curious to see what the plan is with Fox and Ihnen. Fox is listed at 6'8" 210 and Ihnen at 6'9" 220. Will both of them see time as our post? Will Ben recruit a more traditional big man, either a grad transfer or a younger guy looking to move up? Will Treyton Thompsons role grow significantly next year, and do they prefer him as an inside player or as a guy floating on the outside?

The good news is their ACL's both happened so early they should in theory both be at full health next year.

I am also okay with offering a HS kid with the 4th scholarship if Ben thinks there is a good fit. I was really disappointed when he said last offseason that he just wasn't using it...seems like a total waste when you can at least roll the dice on a guy and see if he develops.
 

eker0016 said:
I'm really curious to see what the plan is with Fox and Ihnen. Fox is listed at 6'8" 210 and Ihnen at 6'9" 220. Will both of them see time as our post? Will Ben recruit a more traditional big man, either a grad transfer or a younger guy looking to move up? Will Treyton Thompsons role grow significantly next year, and do they prefer him as an inside player or as a guy floating on the outside?

The good news is their ACL's both happened so early they should in theory both be at full health next year.

I am also okay with offering a HS kid with the 4th scholarship if Ben thinks there is a good fit. I was really disappointed when he said last offseason that he just wasn't using it...seems like a total waste when you can at least roll the dice on a guy and see if he develops.
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I wouldn't have objected giving a one year scholarship, but giving out a 4 year scholarship in hopes they'll develop is costly

I highly doubt Ben will continue with using 12 scholarships. I think Ben moved on because he had no targets left for last year and watned to focus on upcoming recruits instead of fitting in one more piece to sit at end of bench


just my .02

not an "excuse"
 

salzie said:
I wouldn't have objected giving a one year scholarship, but giving out a 4 year scholarship in hopes they'll develop is costly

I highly doubt Ben will continue with using 12 scholarships. I think Ben moved on because he had no targets left for last year and watned to focus on upcoming recruits instead of fitting in one more piece to sit at end of bench


just my .02

not an "excuse"
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Oh it will be seen as an excuse, you can bank on that from a particular poster that I put on ignore and have not regretted doing so one bit.

I take him off ignore from time to time to see if I am missing anything interesting and everytime it just confirms I made the right call in taking advantage of the ignore feature. :)
 

In terms of "reasonable expectations", this to me is 100% what I mean. Below is the list of schools that 247 has listed for Taison Chatman. Those are the schools I expect Ben to beat for local kids. Those are good programs but not the top of the top. I think we would all love the Jones'/Brown/Suggs/Chet/Hurt's of the world to come here, but when KU/UNC/Duke/Gonz come calling I get it, those are at a different level. When you hire a coach and your schtick is that he is going to get local kids, this is 100% the teams they need to beat for them. I can buy that he didnt have time to get King/Watson away, but Chatman will now be 3 years out, he is a must get in my opinion.

1648479376485.png
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
This type of mentality from Ben is what really bothers me. Because Ben is a good guy and seemingly a people pleaser, he seems more concerned about keeping players happy.

It's his job to field the most competitive team possible. Fleck has consistently said since he arrived that he's going to continue to try and out recruit the players already on the team. That breeds a competitive and winning culture.

If you don't like being at the end of the bench, work harder. And if players transfer because they weren't good enough to play, so what? Go recruit better players. That's why he was hired.
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Guess I didn't see that. Kept TT and Thiam pinned to the bench. If he was people pleasing he would have gave them more minutes, since they are the ones that were coming back. He didn't appear to care how many minutes bench players got. As far as Fox and Ihnen, nothing has transpired yet. They have yet to play a minute for him.
 

BarnBurner said:
Sorry, stating they are making excuses is quite different from expectations. And make no mistake - they are making excuses and setting the stage to make more excuses.

Still waiting.
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Is there any distinction to be made between reasons and excuses or are all reasons excuses?
 

eker0016 said:
I'm really curious to see what the plan is with Fox and Ihnen. Fox is listed at 6'8" 210 and Ihnen at 6'9" 220. Will both of them see time as our post? Will Ben recruit a more traditional big man, either a grad transfer or a younger guy looking to move up? Will Treyton Thompsons role grow significantly next year, and do they prefer him as an inside player or as a guy floating on the outside?
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I have no opinion on Fox because I've never seen him play. I do believe, based on what I've seen of Ihnen the prior two years, that he could play significant minutes in a post role. He's a good rebounder and defender when he's in there. He has good length and quick reflexes.

Thompson played only 152 minutes in the entire season, so it's difficult to get a firm idea of his potential capabilities but he was a really poor rebounder for a big man this season. Of the top 8 players in minutes played, his rebounds per 40 minutes ranked ahead of only Willis and EJ Stephens. He plays like a stretch forward. On a 40 minute basis, he took the same number of three point shots as two point shots and his free throw attempts per 40 minutes were lower than everyone except Charlie Daniels among the top 8 in minutes. He was 40% from 3 point range but a 6'11" guy who does most of his damage from the outside is not the greatest need for us right now and probably doesn't translate into a lot of minutes next year unless he adjusts his game.
 

An explanation is designed to give someone all of the facts, and lay out the cause for something. An excuse is designed to push the fault for that thing away from oneself.

I know of no cases where Johnson has ever provided an excuse. He points to the gameplan that the coaches put together and says that the coaches need to do better to put the players in positions to succeed. He tends to be extremely positive and focuses on what the team did right.

Most posters on here are not excusing anything but trying to inject facts into the conversation thus providing explanation. There are some posters on here who are so argumentative or blinded by some perverse need to be right (or worse) that they would fight with the facts in an encyclopedia.
 

cjbfbp said:
I have no opinion on Fox because I've never seen him play. I do believe, based on what I've seen of Ihnen the prior two years, that he could play significant minutes in a post role. He's a good rebounder and defender when he's in there. He has good length and quick reflexes.

Thompson played only 152 minutes in the entire season, so it's difficult to get a firm idea of his potential capabilities but he was a really poor rebounder for a big man this season. Of the top 8 players in minutes played, his rebounds per 40 minutes ranked ahead of only Willis and EJ Stephens. He plays like a stretch forward. On a 40 minute basis, he took the same number of three point shots as two point shots and his free throw attempts per 40 minutes were lower than everyone except Charlie Daniels among the top 8 in minutes. He was 40% from 3 point range but a 6'11" guy who does most of his damage from the outside is not the greatest need for us right now and probably doesn't translate into a lot of minutes next year unless he adjusts his game.
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I think Fox will be a huge factor for this team, his entire game is around the basket based on everything I have seen and that is something this team desperately needs.

Thompson's development is a huge wild card in the short and long term for the program. If he can pack on some lbs and become a viable post threat that can also step back and hit some 3s he becomes a really valuable player. Just a matter of how his game develops and how quickly it happens (if at all). Big guys in basketball are a lot like lineman in football, takes some time for them to mature and reach their full potential in many cases.
 

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