Ben Johnson Reasonable Expectations

[cjbfbp]

Again, we're talking strictly size. I didn't expect the Gophers to be Villanova now, or even in several years talent wise. People saying the Gophers weren't big enough to be a better rebounding team this season is a myth. A lot of highly successful, better rebounding teams, are smaller than the Gophers were this year.

Well, if that's what they are saying, I don't agree with them. Their big men simply weren't strong enough, quick enough, mobile enough, or athletic enough. Maybe having a little more height could have compensated slightly for those deficiencies although maybe not; after all, Thompson was listed at 6'11" and was a noticeably poorer rebounder than 6'5" Sutherlin.

 

[BarnBurner]

Iowa state went 7-11 in conference for a .39 winning percentage

Just going back to 2000 I count 11 seasons where we had a better conference winning percentage than that.

ISU had a solid year, improved a ton from the year before and did enough to get into the tournament. Then got super fortunate with their matchups and managed to win a few. That is great for them, but it is not like they had some historic season where they were great all year.

There is zero doubt that Iowa State had a better season than we did in 2021-22 but let's not go turning their season into something it wasn't. They were still a sub .500 team in the Big 12.

Super fortunate. Keep the excuses locked and loaded.

Hilarious.

 

[MNVCGUY]

So you think a 9-11 season and no ncaa birth would be preferable to 8-12 with a sweet 16?

Because that is kind of what you are arguing here.
Yeah I think there are two seasons you could argue are better than Iowa states 22 since the scandal. Those would be the two that the team was over .500 in conference and made the tourney (both first round losses).

Not what I am saying at all. Obviously the sweet 16 berth gives ISU's 21-22 season a boost over anything we have had around here in the last 20+ years.

However, we have had many regular seasons during that time that are equal to or better than the one Iowa State just had.

Don't try to twist what I said to fit your narrative.

 

[salzie]

Well, if the strategy is similar to this past season, personnel be darned, winning will be very difficult.

Do you just like losing the rebounding battle game after game?

They need to rebound better. I don't expect the philosophy to change in regards to offensive rebounds and getting back on defense.

You cant just dismiss everything as making excuses.

You're a miserable person

 

[salzie]

Not what I am saying at all. Obviously the sweet 16 berth gives ISU's 21-22 season a boost over anything we have had around here in the last 20+ years.

However, we have had many regular seasons during that time that are equal to or better than the one Iowa State just had.

Don't try to twist what I said to fit your narrative.

That's the barn speciality.

 

[BarnBurner]

They need to rebound better. I don't expect the philosophy to change in regards to offensive rebounds and getting back on defense.

You cant just dismiss everything as making excuses.

You're a miserable person

Your an excuse maker. Rebound much better or lose.

 

[salzie]

Your an excuse maker. Rebound much better or lose.

Not really. You realize Wisconsin prioritizes getting back on defense over offensive rebounds.

I agree we need to rank better than last but we're not going to be #1 team.

It is, in part, by design.

Not every issue is black and white as you make it to be

Do you enjoy being an ass on message boards? Or are you just an ass in general and more of a zebra can't hide it's stripes issue

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. In a typical year, we will need *maybe* 3 transfers- I have no idea what you are talking about with 30. If next year Ben brings in 3 transfers that are equivalent to Payton, Battle and Loewe, that will be a massive haul. Are you actually shocked that the 11 & 12 transfers into a complete rebuild didn’t contribute? Get real.

You really don't know what I'm talking about? It's really too complicated for you or are you just doing that weird pretending to not understand thing you do. Hitting on 3 of 12 people isn't impressive. He didn't do a good job in the portal. If we had 3 scholarships to give and hit on all of them, kudos. If you have 12 scholarships to give and you only hit on 3, you didn't do well.

As far the point you're failing to make. I've said numerous times that I don't blame Ben for the amount of talent he brought in via the portal, you're the one with trouble comprehending.

In the post that started your hissy fit, I went to great lengths explaining that I realize Ben walked into a difficult position last year. I then posted this "I don't blame them for the people they added, I was merely pointing out that talent needs to be better (as a whole) for us to improve. But I really don't blame Ben, at all, for the talent he brought in last year."

I don't blame him for the talent he brought in, but I do expect significantly more talent being brought in via the portal. We couldn't give away Big 10 scholarships. Two of the people we gave those away to should never be on a Big 10 roster. Those players SHOULD have received significant minutes playing in the Big 10. You're acting like Ogele and Daniels were buried in the depth chart, they weren't. The fact is that Ben couldn't GIVE Big 10 minutes away to even mid-major level talent. For the 10th time in this thread, I don't blame him for that. But I do expect he will do a better job in the portal.

 

[BarnBurner]

Not really. You realize Wisconsin prioritizes getting back on defense over offensive rebounds.

I agree we need to rank better than last but we're not going to be #1 team.

It is, in part, by design.

Not every issue is black and white as you make it to be

Do you enjoy being an ass on message boards? Or are you just an ass in general and more of a zebra can't hide it's stripes issue

You don’t agree with a take. So I am an ass.

Do you enjoy being a name caller who is exactly what you call others?

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

Not really. You realize Wisconsin prioritizes getting back on defense over offensive rebounds.

I agree we need to rank better than last but we're not going to be #1 team.

It is, in part, by design.

Not every issue is black and white as you make it to be

Do you enjoy being an ass on message boards? Or are you just an ass in general and more of a zebra can't hide it's stripes issue

Thinking they are going to stick to it for the most part. Numbers on rebounding are close to what Colorado State did this year. Coincidence?

 

[Gophers7633]

I didn't read through the entire thread, but did anybody else bring up that had we not hired him, to the surprise of pretty much everyone, he'd be looking to find an assistant gig right now, considering Steele got fired?

With that said, he did exceed my year 1 expectations in terms of wins(because the bar was so low), but I'm still worried about the level talent/recruits he'll be able to pull in. The 2022 class is okay, but won't help significantly in terms of wins this season, so he'll need to hit the portal hard and land better players than he did this off-season. My guess is next year we'll probably have about the same record. And then in year 3 we gotta be contending for an NCAA bid.

 

[salzie]

You don’t agree with a take. So I am an ass.

Do you enjoy being a name caller who is exactly what you call others?

You don't have any actual takes. You just demean people and are argumentative. Trying to figure out why? It's not like you're universally beloved poster and I'm giving rare take.

 

[Gopherfan84]

No idea?

If the strategy is the same as this season, recruiting was a failure then, correct?

21-22 rebounding strategy can’t continue. Unless of course culture trumps wins.

I highly doubt we fall back at the rate we did this year but I don’t know or have an idea yet. The roster still needs to be filled. Truthfully maybe this strategy wins us more games? It will depend on the construction of the roster. If we only win 4 B1G games then I would be willing to agree that it was a “failed season”. Rebounding stats are just a part of it

 

[salzie]

You really don't know what I'm talking about? It's really too complicated for you or are you just doing that weird pretending to not understand thing you do. Hitting on 3 of 12 people isn't impressive. He didn't do a good job in the portal. If we had 3 scholarships to give and hit on all of them, kudos. If you have 12 scholarships to give and you only hit on 3, you didn't do well.

As far the point you're failing to make. I've said numerous times that I don't blame Ben for the amount of talent he brought in via the portal, you're the one with trouble comprehending.

In the post that started your hissy fit, I went to great lengths explaining that I realize Ben walked into a difficult position last year. I then posted this "I don't blame them for the people they added, I was merely pointing out that talent needs to be better (as a whole) for us to improve. But I really don't blame Ben, at all, for the talent he brought in last year."

I don't blame him for the talent he brought in, but I do expect significantly more talent being brought in via the portal. We couldn't give away Big 10 scholarships. Two of the people we gave those away to should never be on a Big 10 roster. Those players SHOULD have received significant minutes playing in the Big 10. You're acting like Ogele and Daniels were buried in the depth chart, they weren't. The fact is that Ben couldn't GIVE Big 10 minutes away to even mid-major level talent. For the 10th time in this thread, I don't blame him for that. But I do expect he will do a better job in the portal.

That's fair. Ben definitely needs to improve talent on roster, from freshman to transfer.

 

[salzie]

I didn't read through the entire thread, but did anybody else bring up that had we not hired him, to the surprise of pretty much everyone, he'd be looking to find an assistant gig right now, considering Steele got fired?

With that said, he did exceed my year 1 expectations in terms of wins(because the bar was so low), but I'm still worried about the level talent/recruits he'll be able to pull in. The 2022 class is okay, but won't help significantly in terms of wins this season, so he'll need to hit the portal hard and land better players than he did this off-season. My guess is next year we'll probably have about the same record. And then in year 3 we gotta be contending for an NCAA bid.

Still has spots left to fill before we judge how this class helps.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Iowa state this year coming off a shit season had what would be the greatest legal gopher season since the early 90s

You can turn it around fast, and if you can’t, you probably aren’t going to turn it around.


Feel free to provide examples of teams in the last 20 years who were bad under a coach for 4 years and then all of a sudden had sustained success the following years

Loyola Chicago. ISU is a different beast and a better program than us. They went to the NCAA tournament a ton the last 20 years. It’s not like the program was fully trashed when they fired Prohm. They still
had a top 60 recruit committed.

 

[BarnBurner]

You don't have any actual takes. You just demean people and are argumentative. Trying to figure out why? It's not like you're universally beloved poster and I'm giving rare take.

My take is rebounding strategy must be better than this year. You are arguing otherwise. So be it.

Don’t need to be beloved at all, unlike yourself. YOU are making it personal with the names and other jabs.

Enjoy!!!!

 

[BarnBurner]

I highly doubt we fall back at the rate we did this year but I don’t know or have an idea yet. The roster still needs to be filled. Truthfully maybe this strategy wins us more games? It will depend on the construction of the roster. If we only win 4 B1G games then I would be willing to agree that it was a “failed season”. Rebounding stats are just a part of it

Maybe. Rest of the offense would have to improve markedly to use the same rebounding strategy and win enough to make a big difference.

And, rebounding and FT shooting win many more games than anyone gives credit.

 

[Gopherfan84]

My take is rebounding strategy must be better than this year. You are arguing otherwise. So be it.

Don’t need to be beloved at all, unlike yourself. YOU are making it personal with the names and other jabs.

Enjoy!!!!

What is better? If you want stats to be padded so they look better than sure? There are better stats correlated with rebounding then just how many we get. This is coming from a guy who coached and emphasized rebounding and crashed the offensive glass hard. There is more than one way to skin a cat

 

[BarnBurner]

What is better? If you want stats to be padded so they look better than sure? There are better stats correlated with rebounding then just how many we get. This is coming from a guy who coached and emphasized rebounding and crashed the offensive glass hard. There is more than one way to skin a cat

Stats?

Just WIN.

 

[salzie]

My take is rebounding strategy must be better than this year. You are arguing otherwise. So be it.

Don’t need to be beloved at all, unlike yourself. YOU are making it personal with the names and other jabs.

Enjoy!!!!

I'm referring to the philosophy on offensive rebounds. You're changing argument to black and white issue and calling any difference in opinion an excuse. I've said they need to rebound better, but I believe core belief of getting back on defense will trump offensive rebounding. Healthy fox, incoming Payne, and hopefully another veteran big to help improve rebounding.

If there is petty argument on basketball board, good chance you're involved, hence my calling you an ass.

I usually don't respond to you, I find it equivalent of spitting into the wind.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Stats?

Just WIN.

You’re arguing that better rebounding is critical to more wins. how do you judge our rebounding then? How do you know that was the cause of our losses?

 

[BarnBurner]

I'm referring to the philosophy on offensive rebounds. You're changing argument to black and white issue and calling any difference in opinion an excuse.

If there is petty argument on basketball board, good chance you're involved, hence my calling you an ass.

I usually don't respond to you, I find it equivalent of spitting into the wind.

Please go away. You are everything you portray others to be.

 

[STPGopher]

Watching Arkansas and Iowa State play in the tournament has gotten me thinking about a question that I think will be really hard to answer in regards to Ben Johnson because of COVID, transfer portal and the state of the program he inherited.

I am in the camp that it isn't wise to judge him over the results of this year. He walked into a uniquely difficult position due to COVID year mixed with transfer portal and the ramifications of those departures will probably ripple for a couple of years. I'm not making excuses for him but I also don't want to move on from a coach prematurely over something completely outside of his control. I also believe that excitement can be generated around a program before it shows up in the W/L department (Fleck's 6-6 2018 team showed some of that).

So here is where I stand on when we should realistically be expecting results (W/L column) from Ben Johnson.

Year 1: All I cared about was the system and recruiting. For me, I liked the way we played and I'm pumped up about the recruits we have coming in.
Year 2: I expect recruiting to keep progressing forward. I expect much better portal players and if we finish lower than 10th in the Big 10, Ben Johnson's seat should increase a couple degrees (maybe luke warm).
Year 3: If we finish lower than 10th, Ben Johnson's seat should be really warm/hot.
Year 4: If we are bad again, he should be fired. If we are improved, but don't make the tourney, his seat should be warm.
Year 5: Tournament or bust.

If he makes the tournament or finishes over .500 in the Big 10 in any of the first years, that throws this all out and we'd be starting with a new set of expectations.

Is this fair? Is it "too fair"? How do yours differ?

IMHO A very reasonable and thoughtful post.

 

[BarnBurner]

You’re arguing that better rebounding is critical to more wins. how do you judge our rebounding then? How do you know that was the cause of our losses?

Have I said rebounding was the only cause? No I haven’t so stop inserting other garbage.

Why even bother rebounding? Missed shot , just get back. Do I have that correct?

 

[Some guy]

Loyola Chicago. ISU is a different beast and a better program than us. They went to the NCAA tournament a ton the last 20 years. It’s not like the program was fully trashed when they fired Prohm. They still
had a top 60 recruit committed.

If Loyola Chicago is the second best case scenario for a coach who can’t win in his first 3 years, I’m worried.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Interesting, I had a sense that this was probably a thing but hadn't looked into it. What do you see as our problem on the inside this last year? should have worked more for offensive rebounds? Poor rebounding players inside? Poor scoring players inside? I had chalked it up to not having a "True Post" I think Curry and TT are more PF. I would say TT has more potential as a post than curry but I think we will be better if he is a PF. Or do you think our problem revolved around our guards not rebounding or scoring well enough inside. Interested in your thoughts.

I think it was a little of everything, strategy, lack of athleticism and talent, and a lack of effort due to getting worn out. I don't think it's due to not having a 'true post', as Curry is a serviceable post in today's game.

I've argued this a lot on here that people need to move away from thinking we always need a 'true post'. Some 6'11"/7'+ center like Kofi Cockburn or Edey. A lot of good teams don't have those. Positionless ball is where today's game has been for years now. The smaller teams are typically athletic, can shoot, and all players are constantly active on defense and at rebounding.

Size is not a concern of mine for next year's Gopher team. Payne at 6'9", Fox at 6'8" with Ihnen at 6'9", TT at 6'11", Battle still at 6'7", Ola-Joseph at 6'8", they have plenty of size.

What concerns me the most is that the Gophers have no guards. I don't think Thiam is a B1G player. They'll have Carrington as a true freshman and that's it. The Gophers still need 3 more guards if not 4, to be competitive next year. That is a huge hole to climb out of.

The great teams in the tournament always have great guard play. They go 3, 4, even 5 guards deep. We haven't had depth at guard since Clem was fired. That's why we are perpetually stuck in the basement.

 

[Gopherfan84]

If Loyola Chicago is the second best case scenario for a coach who can’t win in his first 3 years, I’m worried.

It was the first that came to my mind. Coach K almost got canned at Duke. That better for you? Honestly I agree with your point that we most likely would know if Ben is a dud by the end of year 3. I was more saying we are a different build than ISU and that is isn’t a requirement to win by year 3, but obviously it’d be an outlier

 

[Some guy]

It was the first that came to my mind. Coach K almost got canned at Duke. That better for you? Honestly I agree with your point that we most likely would know if Ben is a dud by the end of year 3. I was more saying we are a different build than ISU and that is isn’t a requirement to win by year 3, but obviously it’d be an outlier

I mean if you go back to the 1960s I’m sure you can find dozens of guys

The fact that people on here won’t be worried if we aren’t winning in year 3 speaks to how sad and pathetic the program is. I still hold out hope we will be better. And if we aren’t, I will be mad and hope we make a change.

 

[Dakota2]

We were poor defensively no doubt. Turnovers were much better. Pitino had guys that had played together. I do not have to rip on Pitino, his record tells the story off and on the court.

We were poor defensively, but not through lack of coaching or effort. Lesser athletes will look poor defensively trying to defend superior athletes.