Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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bga1 said:
NIL wasn't a factor when they signed
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It's not a factor for anyone not named Pharrell Payne.

But I bolded the portion that mattered - Ben Johnson was less experienced then and we are actually rolling off a 9-11 season this year. If someone wants to say Payne is just looking for a bag, cool, but that has nothing to do with Ben Johnson's experience.
 

leib0039 said:
Patiently waiting for the CBJ blowhards to come out. I mean what are we waiting for now? We were told year 3, watch out! Cool back door NIT. But just wait the soph class! Ohh they're basically all gone? But But Izzo said we were great! Or maybe NIL it's not fair!

Face it, CBJ is a horrible coach. I'm not saying we are a sleeping giant but we are better than this. Move on!
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lol....is there some other board where these mythical posts are being tossed around? I mean I guess there was rockraven or whoever making some big claims but even those of us that haven't been on the fire train since day one haven't been crazy optimistic either.

Good lord....some of you are so determined to be right in your negativity that you are pretending like there is this mythical Ben Johnson supporters group that think the guy can do no wrong and will blindly support him no matter what.

Today is a bummer of a day, the one real hope the program had was keeping the core together and adding some pieces. Now if nobody else leaves maybe there is something to salvage for year 4 but after today it feels like we are going to be looking at another full rebuild and if that ends up being the case they may as well just try it with a different coach.
 

MNVCGUY said:
lol....is there some other board where these mythical posts are being tossed around? I mean I guess there was rockraven or whoever making some big claims but even those of us that haven't been on the fire train since day one haven't been crazy optimistic either.

Good lord....some of you are so determined to be right in your negativity that you are pretending like there is this mythical Ben Johnson supporters group that think the guy can do no wrong and will blindly support him no matter what.

Today is a bummer of a day, the one real hope the program had was keeping the core together and adding some pieces. Now if nobody else leaves maybe there is something to salvage for year 4 but after today it feels like we are going to be looking at another full rebuild and if that ends up being the case they may as well just try it with a different coach.
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Maybe
If
Could
Might
Etc

Now, you haven't been "crazy optimistic "

🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
LOL, yeah people in high paying positions love to be publicly insubordinate. That usually works out well for them, just like it did for Tracy Claeys.

There's evidence of how this went down all over this site, with links to articles because this has all been discussed before. I'm sure Coyle's master plan was to fire Richard Pitino and replace him with one of his failed assistants who was turned down for a head coaching job by multiple low level programs.

Coyle wanted to interview others including Dutcher and Smith, but wasn't allowed to. But I'm sure it was totally only his decision to immediately hire someone with no experience, and who wasn't in demand, rather than waiting to interview other candidates that were still coaching in the NCAA tournament.
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I sympathize with your fantasy. Would be great if we could just insert our best conspiracy into the discussion and, "Poof", now Coyle didn't present him and lead the decision making process.

Coyle: Anything less than just telling the president - if she wants to make the decision then she should make the announcement is chicken$#|t.

Sheesh - can you imagine Barry Alvarez back at Wisconsin saying - I would really like a good coach Ms. President but I'm afraid I might lose my job so just tell me who to hire and Ill pretend it was my idea.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Why did the sign with him?
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Maybe he believed the hype/press clippings that Ben was going to bring in all these great players and turn it around. However, after seeing it up close realized Ben is in over his head and doesn’t have a clue. There are tons of gullible people who get suckered in to bad investments all the time only to quickly learn it was smoke and mirrors.
 

CPTMidnight said:
I sympathize with your fantasy. Would be great if we could just insert our best conspiracy into the discussion and, "Poof", now Coyle didn't present him and lead the decision making process.

Coyle: Anything less than just telling the president - if she wants to make the decision then she should make the announcement is chicken$#|t.

Sheesh - can you imagine Barry Alvarez back at Wisconsin saying - I would really like a good coach Ms. President but I'm afraid I might lose my job so just tell me who to hire and Ill pretend it was my idea.
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Ironically, Bo Ryan gave his job to Gard before Barry could conduct a search in earnest.
 

Keep an eye on Dawson Garcia and Cam Christie. Will they stay or go? That could be a disaster.

The departures this week are not a big deal. Payne stings a little, but he had limitations. He didn't make much progress this season. Is that Johnson not developing him enough or Payne having limitations?

Payne also had a recurring back injury issue. He missed game time. Did that impact practice too?

Gophers need a post player now.
 

GopherMarroon said:
Keep an eye on Dawson Garcia and Cam Christie. Will they stay or go? That could be a disaster.

The departures this week are not a big deal. Payne stings a little, but he had limitations. He didn't make much progress this season. Is that Johnson not developing him enough or Payne having limitations?

Payne also had a recurring back injury issue. He missed game time. Did that impact practice too?

Gophers need a post player now.
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All of our players have limitations: Hawkins- too short. Christie- not strong enough, not a good defender. Garcia, not a good defender or assist man. Mitchell- a little small for a 2 and too quick of a trigger. Fox- can't shoot. That's the remainder of our top 9. Which one do you want to lose? I don't want to lose any of them. Payne was a vital piece, our most physical player and with a load of untapped potential left.

Gophers need a post player now- indeed.
 




bga1 said:
All of our players have limitations: Hawkins- too short. Christie- not strong enough, not a good defender. Garcia, not a good defender or assist man. Mitchell- a little small for a 2 and too quick of a trigger. Fox- can't shoot. That's the remainder of our top 9. Which one do you want to lose? I don't want to lose any of them. Payne was a vital piece, our most physical player and with a load of untapped potential left.

Gophers need a post player now- indeed.
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I have laughed at some posters suddenly think Payne was trash and not even a loss. Maybe we need to get these people on record so when the next person leaves they can say see I always thought X sucked 🤣.
 


MNVCGUY said:
Today is a bummer of a day, the one real hope the program had was keeping the core together and adding some pieces. Now if nobody else leaves maybe there is something to salvage for year 4 but after today it feels like we are going to be looking at another full rebuild and if that ends up being the case they may as well just try it with a different coach.
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Coyle won't pull that trigger. He won't want to pay a buyout.

BJ is the coach next year, get used to it.
 



Gopher Teeth said:
Development is for suckers
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In a way it is sort of becoming that. The best programs can cull the top 100+ HS players off the top and then let the non power schools develop kids so they can swoop in to grab them. We are in the in between world. Scratching for the occasional top 100 kid and struggling to attract the high end transfers because we aren't winning and people don't expect us to. This is do or die for Ben. Let's see what he is made of- he's in the frying pan.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
Years since the last NCAA tournament appearance:

Purdue: 0
Illinois: 0
Michigan St: 0
Wisconsin: 0
Northwestern: 0
Nebraska: 0
Indiana: 1
Iowa: 1
Maryland: 1
Penn St: 1
Ohio St: 2
Michigan: 2
Rutgers: 2
Minnesota: 5

New additions next season
Oregon: 0
UCLA: 1
USC: 1
Washington 5
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The new Northwestern indeed.
 

kix4kix said:
Payne was instrumental in anything they claim they are trying to accomplish next year. We are worse without him
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Counterpoint: the Gophers were a better team without Battle and they really didn’t replace him with a similar player. Battle was probably a more coveted transfer than Payne, too. That’s arguable, but the point is that maybe removing Payne doesn’t have to be the end of the world.
 

formerlybis said:
Counterpoint: the Gophers were a better team without Battle and they really didn’t replace him with a similar player. Battle was probably a more coveted transfer than Payne, too. That’s arguable, but the point is that maybe removing Payne doesn’t have to be the end of the world.
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The Gophers were better after Battle left, but it was because two outstanding guards signed, not because we were better off without Battle.
 


formerlybis said:
Counterpoint: the Gophers were a better team without Battle and they really didn’t replace him with a similar player. Battle was probably a more coveted transfer than Payne, too. That’s arguable, but the point is that maybe removing Payne doesn’t have to be the end of the world.
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Battle's skill was redundant on this roster. Payne's is not.

The Gophers being a better team had a lot more to do with better guard play than Battle leaving.
 

MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
I don't get this? Northwestern kept Collins despite the bad seasons and now they're pretty good.
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Chris Collins first 3 years: 49-48 (20-34) Made the NCAA Tournament and won a game in year 4
Ben Johnson's first 3 years: 41-54 (15-44) Has a long ways to go to make the tournament in year 4

Northwestern also has significantly higher academic standards, and as of last year, had zero NIL.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Chris Collins first 3 years: 49-48 (20-34) Made the NCAA Tournament and won a game in year 4
Ben Johnson's first 3 years: 41-54 (15-44) Has a long ways to go to make the tournament in year 4

Northwestern also has significantly higher academic standards, and as of last year, had zero NIL.
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So... we're not the new Northwestern?
 




leib0039 said:
I have laughed at some posters suddenly think Payne was trash and not even a loss. Maybe we need to get these people on record so when the next person leaves they can say see I always thought X sucked 🤣.
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I don't recall anyone saying he was trash. Everyone processes loss in their own way. I believe we would call downplaying his abilities part of the bargaining phase.

Payne hurts no doubt, but let's also look at it eyes wide open.
  • He was not highly recruited out of high school, and MN took a chance on him
  • Chronic back issues - these tend to get worse over time, not better
  • Can't effectively shoot more than 2 to 3 feet away from rim and often missed bunnies
  • Although FT's improved, it was an absolute liability to the point you couldn't have him on the floor in critical situations
  • Especially the first part of the season, he got into foul trouble early and often, and some of them were plain bonehead fouls
Fans were patient as he worked through these growing pains. He was developing into a really nice player. Our reward: reports of malcontent fracturing the locker room and an extended middle finger as he seeks greener pastures.

My guess is that is what people are rationalizing. He's not irreplaceable by any stretch of the imagination, but it still sucks he is leaving.
 

Bad Gopher said:
The Gophers were better after Battle left, but it was because two outstanding guards signed, not because we were better off without Battle.
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That was my point, or at least part of it. With Battle playing a first or second option role, they were last place. He is/was a good college player, but for whatever reason, the team performance wasn't great. Try a different puzzle piece(s). I disagree that there were redundant pieces to Battle - I think the replacements brought different skillsets that complemented the remaining roster. Is it easier to replace Battle than Payne? Yes, I'll concede that point - the supply of 5's is much tighter. However, getting some bigs with different skillsets to Payne might not be the worst thing in the world - they were a fringe top 100 team with him.
 

DarthGopher said:
I don't recall anyone saying he was trash. Everyone processes loss in their own way. I believe we would call downplaying his abilities part of the bargaining phase.

Payne hurts no doubt, but let's also look at it eyes wide open.
  • He was not highly recruited out of high school, and MN took a chance on him
  • Chronic back issues - these tend to get worse over time, not better
  • Can't effectively shoot more than 2 to 3 feet away from rim and often missed bunnies
  • Although FT's improved, it was an absolute liability to the point you couldn't have him on the floor in critical situations
  • Especially the first part of the season, he got into foul trouble early and often, and some of them were plain bonehead fouls
Fans were patient as he worked through these growing pains. He was developing into a really nice player. Our reward: reports of malcontent fracturing the locker room and an extended middle finger as he seeks greener pastures.

My guess is that is what people are rationalizing. He's not irreplaceable by any stretch of the imagination, but it still sucks he is leaving.
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I was one of those critical of his limitations and development but still don’t think he isn’t irreplaceable. His space eating size, speed, and ability to defend will not be replaced easily. Big men that mobile are very hard to find. Losing him imo is an indictment of Ben.
 

GopherGod said:
Maybe he believed the hype/press clippings that Ben was going to bring in all these great players and turn it around. However, after seeing it up close realized Ben is in over his head and doesn’t have a clue. There are tons of gullible people who get suckered in to bad investments all the time only to quickly learn it was smoke and mirrors.
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I'm guilty of hyperbole from time to time myself but to say dude doesn't have a clue after stringing together nine wins in the Big Ten is off the chains. I'd argue that even implying that he's in over his head is an exaggeration. He just isn't the top tier coach that everyone wants us to have. The question is, how tolerable is that at the admin level and for how long? Dude made big progress this year, I think he'll have a baseline expectation to match nine conference wins next year and if he's struggling, he'll have a really hot seat. NIL and the portal have made coaching changes across the board really risky endeavors as well; I think we'll see a lot of programs hang onto not so great coaches for longer to try to maintain stability, because without that stability up top, the chaos at the roster level could be even worse.
 

DarthGopher said:
I don't recall anyone saying he was trash. Everyone processes loss in their own way. I believe we would call downplaying his abilities part of the bargaining phase.

Payne hurts no doubt, but let's also look at it eyes wide open.
  • He was not highly recruited out of high school, and MN took a chance on him
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and he improved big time. He will be a beast next year. 14pts-10 boards
DarthGopher said:
  • Chronic back issues - these tend to get worse over time, not better
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He never let it stop him from playing hard and sacrificing his body
DarthGopher said:
  • Can't effectively shoot more than 2 to 3 feet away from rim and often missed bunnies
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He shot 60% and was often double teamed
DarthGopher said:
  • Although FT's improved, it was an absolute liability to the point you couldn't have him on the floor in critical situations
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True
DarthGopher said:
  • Especially the first part of the season, he got into foul trouble early and often, and some of them were plain bonehead fouls
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Check the stats- this is not true. He got 4 fouls three times and fouled out once this year. His bad fouls came on the hard hedge usually and I hate that scheme
DarthGopher said:
Fans were patient as he worked through these growing pains. He was developing into a really nice player. Our reward: reports of malcontent fracturing the locker room and an extended middle finger as he seeks greener pastures.

My guess is that is what people are rationalizing. He's not irreplaceable by any stretch of the imagination, but it still sucks he is leaving.
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Very true. I will be shocked if we get an equal or better replacement. This won't be a real plus for local recruiting either...
 

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