Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[Gopherfan84]

Same. Although Willis was no where near the player he was in his second stint so I wouldn’t exactly lump him with the other three. Gabe also still had the green light and he used it, unfortunately. No one else on the roster seemed to have a defined role and/or strength. Teams would just attack our 4th or 5th guy in the line up (e.g. omersa) with much success.

If Coffey stayed and was on that team, much different story. Similarly, if Oturu stays for another year I think things could have gone much differently for Pitino. I think Oturu leaving was the beginning of the end - admin just had to find the right opportunity contractually.

Yeah Willis got hurt and it definitely effected him. He and Gabe also just stood and watched Carr (thanks Pitino). Curry getting hurt again hurt that year too. Demir had to start.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Is it ever "just" losing? There are plenty of examples after 3 years that don't involve cheating or NCAA sanctions.

Again find them. Rick Ray at MSU is really probably the only comparable one. Giacolleti is somewhat there but he also followed Utahs most successful coach every.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

I’d argue that it’s not even Gabel. 99% of College presidents wouldn’t do it. Not saying it’s right or wrong, but just a fact with where and who we are. Ain’t happening

I think historically that would be true… but these massive new tv contracts are changing things.

With the new B10 tv deal that was just negotiated, the money for the U will be insane (like $100m annually). Presidents didn’t want to fire coaches in the past because of buyouts and the costs associated with it…especially when athletic departments were slashing programs (like gymnastics at the U), or having coaches take reduced salaries.

But these buyouts are meaningless with the new annual money of the B10 tv deal. Then you combine local market competition and there is reason to move forward much sooner than you would’ve in the old world.

 

[Some guy]

I would tend to agree with the likelihood of a 4 year minimum (rather than 5) but if next year is as bad as the first two, they might pull the plug after 3.

I understand the primary reasons for his hiring but I don't think those make him bulletproof for five years.

If next year is as bad as this year and last and they DONT fire him….year four might have a lower attendance number than st Thomas

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Again find them. Rick Ray at MSU is really probably the only comparable one. Giacolleti is somewhat there but he also followed Utahs most successful coach every.

Eddie Jordan was fired after 3 at Rutgers, which included the difficult move to the B1G. Wyking Jones was fired after 2 seasons at Cal. Ritchie McKay only coached 2 seasons at Oregon St. Kim Anderson was fired after 3 at Missouri. Vanderbilt fired Bryce Drew after 3.

I'm sure I can find more, I haven't combed through the Big 12, ACC, or Big East yet.

 

[Gopherfan84]

I think historically that would be true… but these massive new tv contracts are changing things.

With the new B10 tv deal that was just negotiated, the money for the U will be insane (like $100m annually). Presidents didn’t want to fire coaches in the past because of buyouts and the costs associated with it…especially when athletic departments were slashing programs (like gymnastics at the U), or having coaches take reduced salaries.

But these buyouts are meaningless with the new annual money of the B10 tv deal. Then you combine local market competition and there is reason to move forward much sooner than you would’ve in the old world.

That would not fit under precedent then. Different conversation imo.

Either way we still ain’t firing him after year 3 unless there is a scandal or we truly go winless in the B1G and everyone leaves. It just isn’t going to happen here for a myriad of reasons whether it’s justified or not.

 

[Some guy]

That would not fit under precedent then. Different conversation imo.

Either way we still ain’t firing him after year 3 unless there is a scandal or we truly go winless in the B1G and everyone leaves. It just isn’t going to happen here for a myriad of reasons whether it’s justified or not.

I hope they win then or there won’t be any fans left in 2024-25

 

[scools12]

5 years? Ben's not getting 5 years unless there is significant improvement the remainder of this season and next season. Brewster didn't even get 4 years after going to bowl games in years 2 and 3.

I would be completely surprised if Ben Johnson didn’t get at least 4 and probably 5 years. Coyle knew what type of hire this was. I don’t see him bailing on the hire any earlier than that.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Eddie Jordan was fired after 3 at Rutgers, which included the difficult move to the B1G. Wyking Jones was fired after 2 seasons at Cal. Ritchie McKay only coached 2 seasons at Oregon St. Kim Anderson was fired after 3 at Missouri. Vanderbilt fired Bryce Drew after 3.

I'm sure I can find more, I haven't combed through the Big 12, ACC, or Big East yet.

Eddie Jordan got fired for other reasons besides losing. I forgot about Wyking and Bryce Drew. Funny about Cal
Thinking they’d get Musselman or Kidd. Drew was a weird one too, but they got a different AD. Certainly nothing to point to but losing for those two however and good examples. Drew is especially a good example because he recruited really well and had injuries, but totally different with the AD.
Kim Anderson might be your best comp. Local alum and former assistant, booster/local favorite.
McKay wasn’t fired, he left to New Mexico on his own (this wasn’t like Pitino leaving for UNM either). He and OSU AD and others couldn’t get along. Heard him talk about it on Gottliebs podcast.

 

[Gopherfan84]

I hope they win then or there won’t be any fans left in 2024-25

Doubt it. If we are still here and stayed this long, most won’t leave. Not like there is much support anyways.

 

[howeda7]

Again find them. Rick Ray at MSU is really probably the only comparable one. Giacolleti is somewhat there but he also followed Utahs most successful coach every.

For one recent example, Bryce Drew at Vanderbilt got 3 years. Wyking Jones got two years at Cal.

 

[Gopherfan84]

For one recent example, Bryce Drew at Vanderbilt.

New AD who wanted “his guy”, but I think it’s fair to put him at an example.

 

[Some guy]

Doubt it. If we are still here and stayed this long, most won’t leave. Not like there is much support anyways.

support is significantly reduced from even 4-5 years ago
They aren’t still here.
They haven’t stayed this long
?

Not sure what you’re talking about. Look at the arena



Butts in seats are down and will continue to fall as long as there is no hope.
That’s fine if you don’t care about it.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Eddie Jordan got fired for other reasons besides losing. I forgot about Wyking and Bryce Drew. Funny about Cal
Thinking they’d get Musselman or Kidd. Drew was a weird one too, but they got a different AD. Certainly nothing to point to but losing for those two however and good examples. Drew is especially a good example because he recruited really well and had injuries, but totally different with the AD.
Kim Anderson might be your best comp. Local alum and former assistant, booster/local favorite.
McKay wasn’t fired, he left to New Mexico on his own (this wasn’t like Pitino leaving for UNM either). He and OSU AD and others couldn’t get along. Heard him talk about it on Gottliebs podcast.

Here's a few more.

Wayne Morgan was fired after 3 at Iowa St. Keno Davis only lasted 3 at Providence. Virginia Tech fired James Johnson after 2.

We can add in the sons of legendary coaches in Sean Sutton lasting 2 years at Oklahoma St, and Pat Knight only lasting 3 at Texas Tech.

That's just looking at comparable programs in major conferences over the last 20 years. I know there are more at lower levels. That's plenty of examples of coaches who were fired after only 3 seasons, and several of them were fired after only 2. Like I said before, there is a precedence for this.

 

[Gopherfan84]

support is significantly reduced from even 4-5 years ago
They aren’t still here.
They haven’t stayed this long
?

Not sure what you’re talking about. Look at the arena



Butts in seats are down and will continue to fall as long as there is no hope.
That’s fine if you don’t care about it.

Correct, whomever is left right now probably isn’t going anywhere. The ones who would leave have already left. I care about it plenty and spend my time on a message board about it. That says it all. I also don’t think it’ll happen fast as we all want either. Doesn’t need to be this bad with the losing but I don’t think it’ll turn over and fix quickly.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Here's a few more.

Wayne Morgan was fired after 3 at Iowa St. Keno Davis only lasted 3 at Providence. Virginia Tech fired James Johnson after 2.

We can add in the sons of legendary coaches in Sean Sutton lasting 2 years at Oklahoma St, and Pat Knight only lasting 3 at Texas Tech.

That's just looking at comparable programs in major conferences over the last 20 years. I know there are more at lower levels. That's plenty of examples of coaches who were fired after only 3 seasons, and several of them were fired after only 2. Like I said before, there is a precedence for this.

I don’t think the Sutton and Knight ones work because they had legal issues/administrative issues.

You brought up some that are fair to use as some precedence, but it’s still ridiculously rare and won’t happen after 3 years here unless we see a mass exodus, scandal, or academics fall drastically. We won’t do it because of our admin and their tendencies, we won’t do it because of whom the person is, and we won’t do it because of the media. Whether it’s justified or not from the W-L record.

 

[howeda7]

Correct, whomever is left right now probably isn’t going anywhere. The ones who would leave have already left. I care about it plenty and spend my time on a message board about it. That says it all. I also don’t think it’ll happen fast as we all want either. Doesn’t need to be this bad with the losing but I don’t think it’ll turn over and fix quickly.

Even as bad as it is, I'm not convinced it's bottomed out. And butts in seats still matter. If people are keeping their tickets but only come to half the games there's still material revenue lost.

 

[Some guy]

Correct, whomever is left right now probably isn’t going anywhere. The ones who would leave have already left. I care about it plenty and spend my time on a message board about it. That says it all. I also don’t think it’ll happen fast as we all want either. Doesn’t need to be this bad with the losing but I don’t think it’ll turn over and fix quickly.

They literally are going somewhere else. Anywhere else.
I personally had budgeted for 4 games this year. Went to Illinois game as game one…will not be back for another.

As I said, you can pretend the issue of people no longer attending isn’t an issue if you want

 

[Some guy]

Even as bad as it is, I'm not convinced it's bottomed out. And butts in seats still matter. If people are keeping their tickets but only come to half the games there's still material revenue lost.

It’s absolutely an insane position to say that attendance numbers for the next 2.5 years are independent of fans’ opinions on the quality of the program.

 

[bga1]

Correct, whomever is left right now probably isn’t going anywhere. The ones who would leave have already left. I care about it plenty and spend my time on a message board about it. That says it all. I also don’t think it’ll happen fast as we all want either. Doesn’t need to be this bad with the losing but I don’t think it’ll turn over and fix quickly.

The ones who haven't left will keep watching on TV. MANY will drop their season tickets. It is going to be easy to get tickets for any game one wants to attend next year and getting back in line for season tickets in 2025 when some here say we will be competitive won't be hard either. Fewer and and fewer people care. We aren't making any new fans.

As a season ticket holder, I used to invite people telling them that they could be certain it would be an amazing atmosphere and we had a chance to win any game. Can't promise that anymore.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

look, I like Ben Johnson as a person. he seems like a good dude. And I would like to see him succeed at MN.

But when a team is not just losing, but looking bad - and the team is only drawing a few thousand people a game - patience only goes so far.

I have changed my opinion on this.

If next year is as bad as this year - or even close - I think there is a good chance that Johnson is gone after year 3. That will not make me happy, but you can't ignore the situation. the local media is openly laughing at the Gopher men's basketball program.

we have seen that Coyle will pull the plug on a coach if Coyle feels the program is not heading in the right direction.

well, the gopher men's basketball program is not heading in the right direction,

If they don't show major improvement next year - let's say an overall record over .500 and at least 6 to 8 B1G wins, I think Johnson will be gone.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I don’t think the Sutton and Knight ones work because they had legal issues/administrative issues.

You brought up some that are fair to use as some precedence, but it’s still ridiculously rare and won’t happen after 3 years here unless we see a mass exodus, scandal, or academics fall drastically. We won’t do it because of our admin and their tendencies, we won’t do it because of whom the person is, and we won’t do it because of the media. Whether it’s justified or not from the W-L record.

It's rare because rarely are coaches this bad in their first two seasons. What we are seeing with this program so far under Ben is abnormal, and historically bad.

If the U is going to continue to make decisions based on what outsiders and the media think, despite having some of the worst on the court results in the history of the program, then there's no longer a point in supporting this program until that changes.

 

[Gopherfan84]

They literally are going somewhere else. Anywhere else.
I personally had budgeted for 4 games this year. Went to Illinois game as game one…will not be back for another.

As I said, you can pretend the issue of people no longer attending isn’t an issue if you want

I’ve never said that it doesn’t matter. I’m saying it won’t get much worse than it is currently. It’s already at the bottom. You may believe there is more support there than I do to lose. I don’t think there is.

 

[Gopherfan84]

It's rare because rarely are coaches this bad in their first two seasons. What we are seeing with this program so far under Ben is abnormal, and historically bad.

I’m willing to let the second and third season finish. On pace for it? Sure.

If the U is going to continue to make decisions based on what outsiders and the media think, despite having some of the worst on the court results in the history of the program, then there's no longer a point in supporting this program until that changes.

You may want to consider it then. I don’t think it’s changing anytime soon. Honestly if anything Coyle choosing who he hired and standing by it is going against what most loyal fans wanted. Most wanted a Craig Smith type. So I think you can argue they are and aren’t influenced.

 

[leib0039]

Too much work for me but I'd be interested to see the worst 3 year runs for 1 coach in the last say 25 years in the P6. I'd say the crowd looking for a 3yr and out guy aren't considering almost in every case there is at least 1 outlier year where they say go like 9-7 in conference which bus you time.

The only one I can really think of that looked truly terrible and worked great was Drew at Baylor who went 8-40 his first 3 years.

 

[Gopherfan84]

look, I like Ben Johnson as a person. he seems like a good dude. And I would like to see him succeed at MN.

But when a team is not just losing, but looking bad - and the team is only drawing a few thousand people a game - patience only goes so far.

Agreed 100%

I have changed my opinion on this.

If next year is as bad as this year - or even close - I think there is a good chance that Johnson is gone after year 3. That will not make me happy, but you can't ignore the situation. the local media is openly laughing at the Gopher men's basketball program.

Highly unlikely it can continue to be this bad even throughout the rest of this season, but we are here for sure and we will see. Our media doesn’t support this program whether we win or lose. They suck here.

we have seen that Coyle will pull the plug on a coach if Coyle feels the program is not heading in the right direction.

well, the gopher men's basketball program is not heading in the right direction,

I don’t know if Coyle will agree until he sees this team truly be this awful next year.

If they don't show major improvement next year - let's say an overall record over .500 and at least 6 to 8 B1G wins, I think Johnson will be gone.

And he should be gone. Whether Coyle does it will really be a test. I don’t know if he will unless kids are leaving and recruiting looks like it’s falling off.

 

[howeda7]

I’ve never said that it doesn’t matter. I’m saying it won’t get much worse than it is currently. It’s already at the bottom. You may believe there is more support there than I do to lose. I don’t think there is.

When you have announced crowds of 9k with 3k butts in seats, you're not at the bottom.

 

[Gopherfan84]

The ones who haven't left will keep watching on TV. MANY will drop their season tickets. It is going to be easy to get tickets for any game one wants to attend next year and getting back in line for season tickets in 2025 when some here say we will be competitive won't be hard either. Fewer and and fewer people care. We aren't making any new fans.

We have a new set of alumni that graduate every year. The percentage of them that will not be fans could be lower cause we are bad, but some will still show up and replace the few that are hanging on imo. I think it’s super easy to get tickets right now as it is and honestly has been for 5-6 years. I also am worried that our TV money lets some non sports regents not care about the lost revenue. Again I think we are at rock bottom already attendance wise is my main point. I may be wrong and we will definitely see next year when numbers come out.

As a season ticket holder, I used to invite people telling them that they could be certain it would be an amazing atmosphere and we had a chance to win any game. Can't promise that anymore.

I get where you are coming from here and don’t blame you.

 

[Some guy]

I’ve never said that it doesn’t matter. I’m saying it won’t get much worse than it is currently. It’s already at the bottom. You may believe there is more support there than I do to lose. I don’t think there is.

There definitely is stuff to lose.
Feel free to continue living in dream land

 

[howeda7]

Agreed 100%

Highly unlikely it can continue to be this bad even throughout the rest of this season, but we are here for sure and we will see. Our media doesn’t support this program whether we win or lose. They suck here.

I don’t know if Coyle will agree until he sees this team truly be this awful next year.

And he should be gone. Whether Coyle does it will really be a test. I don’t know if he will unless kids are leaving and recruiting looks like it’s falling off.

If he goes 4-16, 2-18, 5-15 how would recruiting not fall off? And why would Battle or Garcia come back for their final years of eligibility?