Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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leib0039 said:
I would say the talent is average, its not elite but its not like completely void of true ability. I will say he has done an AWFUL job of roster mgmt. We have 9 guys who should be a PF/C, 2 slow/limited PG and 2 FR SG who look like they should be playing against Totino Grace on a nightly basis. And if you are going to have that, you need to find both an offensive and defensive scheme to maximize that, CBJ has zero idea how to do that.

Everyone can talk about next year, guess what Evans isnt playing 38 min with our 9 C on the roster. Just like you blow hards who said Carrington/Henley could eat up 20min of PG play this year, Christie wont be able to do that either next year. And I have my doubts if Cooper comes back Ben has the stones to tell him, hey FYI you are going to the bench because you arent good enough. So get ready for a replay of poor G play next year.
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You are speaking the truth right here.

Let's assume everyone comes back, won't happen...but let's assume...here is the roster:

PG: transfer TBD (not a good track record)
SG: Cooper / Christie (6'6" players are not blazing fast so don't fool yourselves into thinking he can play point *he isn't Magic Johnson *just stop*) / Carrington / Henley
SF: Battle / JOJ / Ihnen / Henley / Betts
PF: Garcia / Fox
C: Evans / Payne / Thompson

When you look at this, you think of the current freshmen and how buried they will be on the roster next year. I believe most of us are of the ilk that we think Christie will be better than Henley and Carrington from day 1, and Evans will most likely be better from day 1 as well...it's not like Payne is doing anything offensively...and Evans has the length to change the game defensively speaking.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
You are speaking the truth right here.

Let's assume everyone comes back, won't happen...but let's assume...here is the roster:

PG: transfer TBD (not a good track record)
SG: Cooper / Christie (6'6" players are not blazing fast so don't fool yourselves into thinking he can play point *he isn't Magic Johnson *just stop*) / Carrington / Henley
SF: Battle / JOJ / Ihnen / Henley / Betts
PF: Garcia / Fox
C: Evans / Payne / Thompson

When you look at this, you think of the current freshmen and how buried they will be on the roster next year. I believe most of us are of the ilk that we think Christie will be better than Henley and Carrington from day 1, and Evans will most likely be better from day 1 as well...it's not like Payne is doing anything offensively...and Evans has the length to change the game defensively speaking.
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I think you need to subtract one from this scenario if we are adding a transfer PG. That will also be interesting.
 

golfing18now said:
I think you need to subtract one from this scenario if we are adding a transfer PG. That will also be interesting.
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But it gives the overall impression of how screwed we are.

If I was CBJ:

Players who you thank for service but transition them out are:
Ihnen & Thompson + I'd say Henley but you are required to keep him due to the Evans angle *don't think he will ever be a good guard or a good F (you can always replace in 2 years with a good freshmen if we think our recruiting will continue on this path - or maybe we realize we go small and shift Christie to SF and get portal guards in 2024-25 ...who knows. How we play today doesn't force our hands two years down the road.
 
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Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
You are speaking the truth right here.

Let's assume everyone comes back, won't happen...but let's assume...here is the roster:

PG: transfer TBD (not a good track record)
SG: Cooper / Christie (6'6" players are not blazing fast so don't fool yourselves into thinking he can play point *he isn't Magic Johnson *just stop*) / Carrington / Henley
SF: Battle / JOJ / Ihnen / Henley / Betts
PF: Garcia / Fox
C: Evans / Payne / Thompson

When you look at this, you think of the current freshmen and how buried they will be on the roster next year. I believe most of us are of the ilk that we think Christie will be better than Henley and Carrington from day 1, and Evans will most likely be better from day 1 as well...it's not like Payne is doing anything offensively...and Evans has the length to change the game defensively speaking.
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Have to bet that Carrington and/or Henley payoff at shooting guard, wing/guard or none of the math works.

Transfer point guard.

NCAA tournament bound with that and the post players set.
 


Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
You are speaking the truth right here.

Let's assume everyone comes back, won't happen...but let's assume...here is the roster:

PG: transfer TBD (not a good track record)
SG: Cooper / Christie (6'6" players are not blazing fast so don't fool yourselves into thinking he can play point *he isn't Magic Johnson *just stop*) / Carrington / Henley
SF: Battle / JOJ / Ihnen / Henley / Betts
PF: Garcia / Fox
C: Evans / Payne / Thompson

When you look at this, you think of the current freshmen and how buried they will be on the roster next year. I believe most of us are of the ilk that we think Christie will be better than Henley and Carrington from day 1, and Evans will most likely be better from day 1 as well...it's not like Payne is doing anything offensively...and Evans has the length to change the game defensively speaking.
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I don't think you can have more than 13 scholarships anymore, Covid extra is done or not? Without a transfer they are at 13.
 

gopherbadgerman said:
If Pitino were still here and MN had Gabe, Mashburn, and Carr they would be in the top 3-4 of the B10 and we’d all be arguing about how high of an NCAA seed they were looking at.
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I’ve said that about Pitino teams with players X, Y, and Z in just about every January he was here, just to watch us fall apart in Feb and March.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
It's funny that the few posters who keep repeating the lie that Ben inherited nothing, which is completely made up, are trying to say PJ inherited Winfield and others. Winfield had far more reasons to leave than anyone on the basketball roster, yet PJ was able to convince him to stay. That's the major difference between the two. PJ recruited players to stay that would help him win, and added a ton of talent to the roster within his first 3 weeks on the job, especially where they were the weakest on offense. PJ was left virtually nothing at QB, WR, OL, and DB. He immediately filled those voids.
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Look, I'm very happy that Fleck is our football coach and I have no love at all for Ben Johnson but you're dishonestly ignoring the critical environmental difference between the times they were hired. Johnson was hired at the time of a free-for-all, no-questions-asked transfer portal. Fleck was hired at the time when most players (other than grad transfers) had to sit out a year if they transferred.

You also have little real knowledge of what Johnson did or did not do when it came to retaining players when he arrived so stop talking like you do. Recall that it took some time for a number of the departing players to enter the transfer portal and most of those probably left for reasons that didn't have much to do with Johnson.

Fleck didn't have to recruit an entire team within the months after he arrived here. Sure, his inherited quarterbacks were terrible but there were a fair number of defensive players retained from the previous team, his running backs were carryovers, and much of the receiver corps remained. Johnson inherited only one freshman recruit (a poor one) while the better one opted-out to remain in the local area of his prep.

Johnson arrived too late to recruit any new freshman commits of quality while Fleck was able to bring some of his significant WMU commitments with him. For a number of reasons, Johnson had to go with short-timer transfers which meant that he had to recruit almost an entirely new team again for Year 2.

There is little question at this point that Fleck was a resoundingly better hire than Johnson but he didn't start with quite the same disadvantages.

Do I think Johnson will succeed here? At this point, I'd have to lean towards "probably not" but I think he deserves a little leeway because he had a more challenging environment in his first two years than most coaches. I will conclude by saying that he should realize that next year is almost a do-or-die year for him and he should nudge out a couple of players on the current roster and make a concerted effort to get better replacements from the portal.
 



All I have to say is, without a handful of surprise games (where we’re competitive and win 2-3), this is going to be Todd Lickliter territory. Some ADs have the nuts to pull the plug when it’s obviously a bad fit, even early on.
 

jovs said:
I don't think you can have more than 13 scholarships anymore, Covid extra is done or not? Without a transfer they are at 13.
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It means he will need to tell someone "Thank you, but your services are no longer needed on this team. We can help you in the portal, but your time as a Gopher basketball player are over."
 


goldenboy said:
All I have to say is, without a handful of surprise games (where we’re competitive and win 2-3), this is going to be Todd Lickliter territory. Some ADs have the nuts to pull the plug when it’s obviously a bad fit, even early on.
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I remember Todd Lickliter well. This situation definitely is within Todd Lickliter territory but Lickliter did get three years.
 



cjbfbp said:
Look, I'm very happy that Fleck is our football coach and I have no love at all for Ben Johnson but you're dishonestly ignoring the critical environmental difference between the times they were hired. Johnson was hired at the time of a free-for-all, no-questions-asked transfer portal. Fleck was hired at the time when most players (other than grad transfers) had to sit out a year if they transferred.

You also have little real knowledge of what Johnson did or did not do when it came to retaining players when he arrived so stop talking like you do. Recall that it took some time for a number of the departing players to enter the transfer portal and most of those probably left for reasons that didn't have much to do with Johnson.

Fleck didn't have to recruit an entire team within the months after he arrived here. Sure, his inherited quarterbacks were terrible but there were a fair number of defensive players retained from the previous team, his running backs were carryovers, and much of the receiver corps remained. Johnson inherited only one freshman recruit (a poor one) while the better one opted-out to remain in the local area of his prep.

Johnson arrived too late to recruit any new freshman commits of quality while Fleck was able to bring some of his significant WMU commitments with him. For a number of reasons, Johnson had to go with short-timer transfers which meant that he had to recruit almost an entirely new team again for Year 2.

There is little question at this point that Fleck was a resoundingly better hire than Johnson but he didn't start with quite the same disadvantages.

Do I think Johnson will succeed here? At this point, I'd have to lean towards "probably not" but I think he deserves a little leeway because he had a more challenging environment in his first two years than most coaches. I will conclude by saying that he should realize that next year is almost a do-or-die year for him and he should nudge out a couple of players on the current roster and make a concerted effort to get better replacements from the portal.
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Regarding your last comment I completely agree...that or the AD has backed him until year 4 or 5 regardless and has told him that many times. At some point, Coyle is going to have to come out with a public comment and say Ben is our guy and we believe in his vision (through the young guys and development). If this doesn't happen, Ben knows he is coaching for his job (probably only ever P5 job and $2M a year payday for him), so he will jettison lots of players to get quick returns in the portal. It will be a telling offseason.
 

cjbfbp said:
Look, I'm very happy that Fleck is our football coach and I have no love at all for Ben Johnson but you're dishonestly ignoring the critical environmental difference between the times they were hired. Johnson was hired at the time of a free-for-all, no-questions-asked transfer portal. Fleck was hired at the time when most players (other than grad transfers) had to sit out a year if they transferred.

You also have little real knowledge of what Johnson did or did not do when it came to retaining players when he arrived so stop talking like you do. Recall that it took some time for a number of the departing players to enter the transfer portal and most of those probably left for reasons that didn't have much to do with Johnson.

Fleck didn't have to recruit an entire team within the months after he arrived here. Sure, his inherited quarterbacks were terrible but there were a fair number of defensive players retained from the previous team, his running backs were carryovers, and much of the receiver corps remained. Johnson inherited only one freshman recruit (a poor one) while the better one opted-out to remain in the local area of his prep.

Johnson arrived too late to recruit any new freshman commits of quality while Fleck was able to bring some of his significant WMU commitments with him. For a number of reasons, Johnson had to go with short-timer transfers which meant that he had to recruit almost an entirely new team again for Year 2.

There is little question at this point that Fleck was a resoundingly better hire than Johnson but he didn't start with quite the same disadvantages.

Do I think Johnson will succeed here? At this point, I'd have to lean towards "probably not" but I think he deserves a little leeway because he had a more challenging environment in his first two years than most coaches. I will conclude by saying that he should realize that next year is almost a do-or-die year for him and he should nudge out a couple of players on the current roster and make a concerted effort to get better replacements from the portal.
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The biggest differences between Fleck and Johnson are:
1. Fleck was a proven winner as a HC.
2 Johnson only needs a few good players to be competitive. Something he clearly does not have.
3. Fans were excited by the Fleck hire.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
The biggest differences between Fleck and Johnson are:
1. Fleck was a proven winner as a HC.
2 Johnson only needs a few good players to be competitive. Something he clearly does not have.
3. Fans were excited by the Fleck hire.
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I'd go further, other programs are continually rumored to want Fleck (big programs)...
 


Bfan said:
What do I know -- I think Gophers will be excellent on defense and in the paint.

Can't count on Cameron Christie, a shooting guard, for a year. Guard takes awhile.

Gophers really need Braedon Carrington to emerge next year at shooting guard. Guard in general is the pivotal element, the uncertain element. Really need quality production there.
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Right...but what about point guard? So you can see next year we probably don't have a shooting guard, Braedon hasn't shown us he will be a top half of the B1G shooting guard next year. You have stated Christie will be a freshman, and they take time so he's out. We have zero point guards. Are you starting to see a problem? Apparently BJ has no responsibility or power regarding the portal, so we have been told, he is apparently only at the mercy of random players legally forcing their way onto squad, so we can't look at that. I understand people saying BJ needs more than two years, but you can see the writing on the wall that we will be a bottom level team again next year. So that means we have to wait another year to see if guards are addressed? So that's year four, but then I am sure the apologists will say well BJ just got his guard in year four, so he needs at least two years for that guard to develop. So we are already at year six now. This is not hard to project out where this is all going.

You seem to be very positive about how things are going, how do you see the guard problem getting fixed?
 

Bfan said:
Johnson has delivered the Dennis Evans grand slam recruiting.

His coaching will be judged on the outcome if the four freshmen this season -- things to come. We will see when they are juniors.

DENNIS EVANS!!!!!
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He hasn't been able to save his own High School team, he is not going to be able to put out this fire.
 

HALOOOOOOOO... heloo... hello... hello.. helo..
The Midnight Entering the "Johnson hate echo chamber"... chamber... chmbr...
Just here to remind YOU... you... u
A Year from now Johnson will still be COACH... coach... coach... coach
Have a nice DAAAAAY.... Day... day.. day

[/flamesuit on]
 

RickDornsby said:
Can somebody explain to me that while I understand Evans was a late-riser, is there an explanation why only a handful of teams were in on him? UCLA, USC, Arizona, etc weren’t involved?

If NIL is a thing, we’re not hearing some team with big pockets trying to offer him millions, yet he’s almost a top 10 recruit after the last ranking on Rivals?

I’m excited, but why isn’t he like the other top 20 guys
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I think the fact that his HS team is basically .500 despite having one of the best players in the country speaks volumes. If I was a HS coach with a 5 star, guess who I am going to non stop. Guard doesn't give him the ball, he's out. I would bet he's getting the ball, I suspect that he is a bit passive and ends up deferring, but regardless, if he is not imposing his will on a HS basketball court, he won't be imposing it year 0 in the B1G. Those teams you mentioned will get the 5 star who does impose their will.
 
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goldenboy said:
All I have to say is, without a handful of surprise games (where we’re competitive and win 2-3), this is going to be Todd Lickliter territory. Some ADs have the nuts to pull the plug when it’s obviously a bad fit, even early on.
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Even Lickliter never finished last in the B1G and won 15 games in year 2.
 


cjbfbp said:
Look, I'm very happy that Fleck is our football coach and I have no love at all for Ben Johnson but you're dishonestly ignoring the critical environmental difference between the times they were hired. Johnson was hired at the time of a free-for-all, no-questions-asked transfer portal. Fleck was hired at the time when most players (other than grad transfers) had to sit out a year if they transferred.

You also have little real knowledge of what Johnson did or did not do when it came to retaining players when he arrived so stop talking like you do. Recall that it took some time for a number of the departing players to enter the transfer portal and most of those probably left for reasons that didn't have much to do with Johnson.

Fleck didn't have to recruit an entire team within the months after he arrived here. Sure, his inherited quarterbacks were terrible but there were a fair number of defensive players retained from the previous team, his running backs were carryovers, and much of the receiver corps remained. Johnson inherited only one freshman recruit (a poor one) while the better one opted-out to remain in the local area of his prep.

Johnson arrived too late to recruit any new freshman commits of quality while Fleck was able to bring some of his significant WMU commitments with him. For a number of reasons, Johnson had to go with short-timer transfers which meant that he had to recruit almost an entirely new team again for Year 2.

There is little question at this point that Fleck was a resoundingly better hire than Johnson but he didn't start with quite the same disadvantages.

Do I think Johnson will succeed here? At this point, I'd have to lean towards "probably not" but I think he deserves a little leeway because he had a more challenging environment in his first two years than most coaches. I will conclude by saying that he should realize that next year is almost a do-or-die year for him and he should nudge out a couple of players on the current roster and make a concerted effort to get better replacements from the portal.
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The transfer portal is a huge advantage today, not a disadvantage as the Ben apologists keep trying to say. That's why so many 1st and 2nd year coaches are having so much early success after inheriting nearly the same situation as Ben did. He's had more than enough time to recruit better rosters than the awful product he's put on the floor for 2 straight years, and coaches hired at the same time as him or later, have proved that to be true all over the country.

Ben didn't come in after a scandal like PJ did. And despite that, PJ was still able to recruit players here without ever stepping a foot on campus. If he would have had the transfer portal like we have today, he would have likely had better teams in year 1 and 2.
 


Why are Duke fans still here?

This is Minnesota. Being a fan of Minnesota is not easy. It means suffering between peaks. Minnesota has never been a great recruiting school.

And Johnson's recruiting class next season is the 1st or 2nd best prospect in school history.

Enjoy the payoff that's coming since it is so rare in school history.

At Minnesota it takes a rebuilt setup to pull it off - like Johnson is doing.

Dennis Evans!

The 4 freshmen this year. OK it won't work if they don't pan out.

Stay tuned.
 


Bfan said:
Why are Duke fans still here?

This is Minnesota. Being a fan of Minnesota is not easy. It means suffering between peaks. Minnesota has never been a great recruiting school.

And Johnson's recruiting class next season is the 1st or 2nd best prospect in school history.

Enjoy the payoff that's coming since it is so rare in school history.

At Minnesota it takes a rebuilt setup to pull it off - like Johnson is doing.

Dennis Evans!

The 4 freshmen this year. OK it won't work if they don't pan out.

Stay tuned.
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Where the fuck are these peaks you speak of?
 


cjbfbp said:
Look, I'm very happy that Fleck is our football coach and I have no love at all for Ben Johnson but you're dishonestly ignoring the critical environmental difference between the times they were hired. Johnson was hired at the time of a free-for-all, no-questions-asked transfer portal. Fleck was hired at the time when most players (other than grad transfers) had to sit out a year if they transferred.

You also have little real knowledge of what Johnson did or did not do when it came to retaining players when he arrived so stop talking like you do. Recall that it took some time for a number of the departing players to enter the transfer portal and most of those probably left for reasons that didn't have much to do with Johnson.

Fleck didn't have to recruit an entire team within the months after he arrived here. Sure, his inherited quarterbacks were terrible but there were a fair number of defensive players retained from the previous team, his running backs were carryovers, and much of the receiver corps remained. Johnson inherited only one freshman recruit (a poor one) while the better one opted-out to remain in the local area of his prep.

Johnson arrived too late to recruit any new freshman commits of quality while Fleck was able to bring some of his significant WMU commitments with him. For a number of reasons, Johnson had to go with short-timer transfers which meant that he had to recruit almost an entirely new team again for Year 2.

There is little question at this point that Fleck was a resoundingly better hire than Johnson but he didn't start with quite the same disadvantages.

Do I think Johnson will succeed here? At this point, I'd have to lean towards "probably not" but I think he deserves a little leeway because he had a more challenging environment in his first two years than most coaches. I will conclude by saying that he should realize that next year is almost a do-or-die year for him and he should nudge out a couple of players on the current roster and make a concerted effort to get better replacements from the portal.
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I don't know how many, but it's been talked about quite a bit how he had to recruit Coughlin, Winfield, and Connor Rhoda into sticking around. There was quite a bit of discussion at the time about a mass exodus of players - they were upset about Claeys (remember the discussion of boycotting a bowl game). So Fleck did have to recruit his own players into staying. The big reason he was so successful was because of the guys he kept and his very first class - the one he put together on short notice.
 

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