Battle and Cooper leaning towards moving on from Gophers after the season

[GoodasGold]

Thank You!! Battle was not put in good spots to get the ball. On a side note anyone notice missing was Battle dad from senior night festivities

Did not notice. Don’t know Dad Battle from Adam or Eve. How u know he not there?

 

[60's Guy]

I think that you find a really good portal pg and a lot of things would change. The talent on this team is not bad at all when you add Fox, Ihnen, Betts and Christie. Ben has to get a lot better at his craft. Perhaps Coyle will force his hand on hiring an assistant coach that has potential head coaching chops to work along side Ben. Obviously the assistants we have are not cutting it either.

I know it looks dark right now. Fire Ben and it gets darker. Watch the exodus (again). For next year, I remain convinced that an improved CBJ is our best shot at restoring the program.

Tonight's game would have been won by the Gophers if they had Ihnen. He's a kid they could have put on Wahl or Crowl and with his length they would not have scored that way on him.

Ihnen is not a post defender. Has no desire to be a post defender. It is not who he is. Could he do it to win a game maybe. But how about you have a plan for your program in two years....teach somebody how to defend the post ...put enough pressure on the passer and it is tough to pass to the post. Garcia is 6'11" - why can't he defend the post if you think Ihnen can? Front the post with Garcia? Double the post dig it out of there, you don't need to double off a shooter. Play zone. Mix it up. My gosh, Wisconsin tells you what they are going to do months in advance. They have lost a lot games, there is a book on stopping them...we don't need different guys to play defense on Wisconsin...we need better strategy, better instruction.

We have zero idea if Fox, Ihnen, Betts or Christie will be more effective than TT. Are they healthy? Do they get too nervous? Do we utilize their strengths to make them look good? Betts played at a small high school, came a year early, he could be best player on the team or never leave the bench. Christie couldn't carry his high school team...seems unlikely he leads the Gophers out of the darkness.

We need a coach with the stature and ability to get 5 to 7 guys out of the portal and put a team together like Iowa St, Kansas St, Pitt, Missouri, Texas Tech last year...lots of examples. One year is enough in 2023 with the portal if you can coach.

 

[EG#9]

I just don't get what Ben's plan was when he got this job. To give 80% of the minutes in his first year to 1 year guys and give scholarships to guys like Daniels and the former Division 3 backup just to finish last. He then knew he'd have a ton of scholarships open for his second season and "filled" 3 with Samuels, a 17 year old recruit coming in a year early, and a walk on. This year when the season was long past salvageable he played Jamison Battle every possible minute even in blowouts and Cooper was not far behind. Now both of them are leaving. How do you finish last two years in a row and claim you are building something when you will return essentially zero minutes of lead ball handler (ok Hendley had that role for a few minutes in a few games if you want to be technical)?

At a minimum we should have 5 (FIVE!) scholarships open this Spring between the one held by Evans plus the Battle, Cooper, Ramberg, and Thompson scholarships. The only high major transfer Ben has landed has been Dawson Garcia who essentially had to come to Minnesota to be eligible. It's hard to be optomistic that we aren't just going to bring in a bunch of guys who want to play high major for a year but don't have many/any other options like most of Ben's portal additions to date. This just screams that there is no choice but to move on now.

 

[Tucker32]

I think you are selling Battle pretty short. If you are an opposing coach...who are you most worried about hurting you? No question it is Battle for me. It might be Payne if we used him like Cockburn and if we did it would elevate Battle's value.
We had no actions to get Battle looks. Almost all his shots he had to create off a dribble...that is not what he does best. He's a scoring machine utilized to his strengths....which he wasn't...not his fault and therefore he was ineffective for his abilities. Absolutely our most dangerous shooter! Not even close.
Highly unlikely we get a better shooter than Battle. If we do...will we put him in spots to do what he does best? That's the problem, not Battle.

Battle was awful this year. Terrible shot selection, poor passer, and lazy on defense. He really was not very good at all. I also think the staff did a terrible job putting him in a position to play well consistently, and never held him accountable for his poor shots and defense.

 

[60's Guy]

Battle was awful this year. Terrible shot selection, poor passer, and lazy on defense. He really was not very good at all.

All true. Because he has no talent? Or because he wasn't coached to his strengths? He was not coached effectively. And I was not there...he was injured, and it was reported he was also dealing with some life issues beyond a stolen bike.
But he is our best shooter used to his strengths....there is no doubt of that fact. Ask any opposing coach.

 

[howeda7]

I doubt it. Fans have short memories and are optimistic each time a new season starts. Furthermore, why would you hire another cheap coach after the last two?

If the fans here are any indication the patience has worn out with many of the long-timers. And no one is coming to replace them.

Cheap is relative. Ben makes ~$2 million per year. Coaches like Smith, Dutcher or DeVries aren't going to cost more than $3 million/year. Musselman is the only one that would really break the bank.

 

[Halsey Hall]

Cooper= addition by subtraction

 

[Ghos345]

Did not notice. Don’t know Dad Battle from Adam or

Did not notice. Don’t know Dad Battle from Adam or Eve. How u know he not there?

Was just jamison and his mom on the court for his senior recognition had assumed both his parents would be with him guess I was wrong.

 

[Holy Man]

I dont disagree, a Souley Boum or Jalen Pickett type would do wonders. However, CBJ hasn't gotten even close to that yet, what has changed?

I also agree if you don't fire CBJ you need to can an assistant and get someone who has P5 coaching experience.

I will disagree on "fire him and watch it get darker". First off, we got dead last the last 2 years, by definition it can't get worse. Furthermore, maybe a new coach brings guys with him or is just a better coach.

It can get worse. We could be last with players without potential and or a scandal ridden program. Neither are reasons to not make a move but it could definitely get worse.

Perhaps a greater challenge than the portal is getting the coach with experience to join a sinking ship.

 

[kg21]

Battle was awful this year. Terrible shot selection, poor passer, and lazy on defense. He really was not very good at all. I also think the staff did a terrible job putting him in a position to play well consistently, and never held him accountable for his poor shots and defense.

I can somewhat go with this, but we had no one who could create or get a shot. That was our problem all year.

We had literally no one on the perimeter who could do this. Battle forced things at times due to this. He was also the game plan for many of the other teams defensively.

without massive help in the portal, we are in a world of hurt yet again next year.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

I know he can't.

We need probably 3 starters out of the portal to avoid weakling Wednesday. I'd guess something similar to Willis, Loewe and Stephen's is the absolute peak. And ohh BTW that team also finished DFL in conference.

What does he have to sell? He's got a horrible record, a terrible offense, apparently not much NIL. If you are going to say PT I would agree, this far that has landed us basically nothing. So unless we are going to start hiring relatives of guys to be on staff I'd guess another 1-2 conference win team is coming up.

Go the Evan Mosley family approach…Wet_Blanket_Guy approves!

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

I think that you find a really good portal pg and a lot of things would change. The talent on this team is not bad at all when you add Fox, Ihnen, Betts and Christie. Ben has to get a lot better at his craft. Perhaps Coyle will force his hand on hiring an assistant coach that has potential head coaching chops to work along side Ben. Obviously the assistants we have are not cutting it either.

I know it looks dark right now. Fire Ben and it gets darker. Watch the exodus (again). For next year, I remain convinced that an improved CBJ is our best shot at restoring the program.

Tonight's game would have been won by the Gophers if they had Ihnen. He's a kid they could have put on Wahl or Crowl and with his length they would not have scored that way on him.

I’d argue the players who aren’t leaving now will stay even if Ben is fired. They are here for the U and the proximity to family (Payne, Garcia, JOJ, Asuma, Carrington*id be okay with him leaving)…Christie would be a wild card.

Who cares if ihnen and fox leave they haven’t played in two years, and ihnen was bad when he played.

Do it now

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

I think you are selling Battle pretty short. If you are an opposing coach...who are you most worried about hurting you? No question it is Battle for me. It might be Payne if we used him like Cockburn and if we did it would elevate Battle's value.
We had no actions to get Battle looks. Almost all his shots he had to create off a dribble...that is not what he does best. He's a scoring machine utilized to his strengths....which he wasn't...not his fault and therefore he was ineffective for his abilities. Absolutely our most dangerous shooter! Not even close.
Highly unlikely we get a better shooter than Battle. If we do...will we put him in spots to do what he does best? That's the problem, not Battle.

The data doesn’t agree with you. One could argue Garcia is a better shooter. Battle’s issue is his brain and how he takes such stupid shots…lots of times either dribbling into contested shots or extremely long shots with like 20+ seconds on the shot clock from 25+ feet. Is he a good shooter…yes, but he takes so many stupid ass shots that it drastically reduces his percentages that he becomes an average shooter at best.

 

[The SF Rock]

If the fans here are any indication the patience has worn out with many of the long-timers. And no one is coming to replace them.

Cheap is relative. Ben makes ~$2 million per year. Coaches like Smith, Dutcher or DeVries aren't going to cost more than $3 million/year. Musselman is the only one that would really break the bank.

Go big or go home. Musselman.

 

[Bad Gopher]

It can get worse. We could be last with players without potential and or a scandal ridden program. Neither are reasons to not make a move but it could definitely get worse.

Perhaps a greater challenge than the portal is getting the coach with experience to join a sinking ship.

Rule of thumb: if one's hope is that an assistant coach will come in and save the program, your situation isn't salvageable. What's the long-term hope there? That your head coach suddenly learns everything he needs to know--and should have known all along--from his new assistant? If that's the plan, then change your plan and hire a real head coach.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I just don't get what Ben's plan was when he got this job. To give 80% of the minutes in his first year to 1 year guys and give scholarships to guys like Daniels and the former Division 3 backup just to finish last. He then knew he'd have a ton of scholarships open for his second season and "filled" 3 with Samuels, a 17 year old recruit coming in a year early, and a walk on. This year when the season was long past salvageable he played Jamison Battle every possible minute even in blowouts and Cooper was not far behind. Now both of them are leaving. How do you finish last two years in a row and claim you are building something when you will return essentially zero minutes of lead ball handler (ok Hendley had that role for a few minutes in a few games if you want to be technical)?

At a minimum we should have 5 (FIVE!) scholarships open this Spring between the one held by Evans plus the Battle, Cooper, Ramberg, and Thompson scholarships. The only high major transfer Ben has landed has been Dawson Garcia who essentially had to come to Minnesota to be eligible. It's hard to be optomistic that we aren't just going to bring in a bunch of guys who want to play high major for a year but don't have many/any other options like most of Ben's portal additions to date. This just screams that there is no choice but to move on now.

My take is that Ben didn't expect the entire team (save for one guy) to abandon him when he was hired. Then it became a bigger rebuild than anyone thought it would be and that he was equipped to deal with. Since then he's been barely treading water, taking whoever he could get no matter how it all fit together. Last year's team was better rounded than this year's; as a result, they won twice as many conference games. If there are more defections from this roster than we already know, that'll keep him in scramble mode. Once again, beggars won't be able to be choosers. He'll take who he can get in the portal, with less to sell than even before: up to now, he could ask to be given the benefit of the doubt about his and his staff's coaching abilities.

 

[bmb5270]

Battle was awful this year. Terrible shot selection, poor passer, and lazy on defense. He really was not very good at all. I also think the staff did a terrible job putting him in a position to play well consistently, and never held him accountable for his poor shots and defense.

I agree Battle shot poorly this year but if you think he was lazy on defense you have less basketball IQ than my 9 month old grandson. Battle works his tail off on defense but often he is at a quickness disadvantage. That doesn’t mean he is lazy.

 

[bga1]

My take is that Ben didn't expect the entire team (save for one guy) to abandon him when he was hired. Then it became a bigger rebuild than anyone thought it would be and that he was equipped to deal with. Since then he's been barely treading water, taking whoever he could get no matter how it all fit together. Last year's team was better rounded than this year's; as a result, they won twice as many conference games. If there are more defections from this roster than we already know, that'll keep him in scramble mode. Once again, beggars won't be able to be choosers. He'll take who he can get in the portal, with less to sell than even before: up to now, he could ask to be given the benefit of the doubt about his and his staff's coaching abilities.

Huge red flag if more leave than Battle, Cooper and TT.

If he keeps Payne, Garcia, Ihnen, Fox, Betts, Henley, JOJ, Christie and Carrington...that's a nice nucleus assuming development and reasonable effectiveness by one or both of the Ihnen/Fox duo. Get two guards and a bruiser on the boards. All four frosh showed promise this year- each has a long way to go but there are signs there.

Ben needs one new assistant, preferably a veteran coach who has D1 experience. Ben is green as the grass and it shows but I believe in his potential. This is a do or die summer for Ben. Recruit and develop or get fired a year from now.

 

[bga1]

I agree Battle shot poorly this year but if you think he was lazy on defense you have less basketball IQ than my 9 month old grandson. Battle works his tail off on defense but often he is at a quickness disadvantage. That doesn’t mean he is lazy.

He runs out of steam because of the lack of athleticism and too many minutes. It makes him look lazy when he isn't.

 

[cjbfbp]

Ihnen is not a post defender. Has no desire to be a post defender. It is not who he is.

I thought he was a pretty good post defender when he was played there. Pretty good rebounder too. He had long arms and quick reflexes. Unfortunately, Pitino played him most often as a small forward where he was not effective because his outside shot was erratic and he had little confidence in his ball handling.

 

[bga1]

Ihnen is not a post defender. Has no desire to be a post defender. It is not who he is. Could he do it to win a game maybe. But how about you have a plan for your program in two years....teach somebody how to defend the post ...put enough pressure on the passer and it is tough to pass to the post. Garcia is 6'11" - why can't he defend the post if you think Ihnen can? Front the post with Garcia? Double the post dig it out of there, you don't need to double off a shooter. Play zone. Mix it up. My gosh, Wisconsin tells you what they are going to do months in advance. They have lost a lot games, there is a book on stopping them...we don't need different guys to play defense on Wisconsin...we need better strategy, better instruction.

Ihnen of two years ago had length and hops. For the better part of that year Pitino had him floating the perimeter where he was not good. Later in the year he had him defending bigger guys and Ihnen was a pain for them to play against. Go back and watch some of those games if you can find them and if you can stand it. He can defend. His stats from two years ago- he was our second leading shot blocker and 5th leader rebounder in just 14 minutes. What killed him was offensive inefficiency. Garcia can be a lot better than he is - he should be adding muscle and certainly there is some coaching failure there as well.

We have zero idea if Fox, Ihnen, Betts or Christie will be more effective than TT. Are they healthy? Do they get too nervous? Do we utilize their strengths to make them look good? Betts played at a small high school, came a year early, he could be best player on the team or never leave the bench. Christie couldn't carry his high school team...seems unlikely he leads the Gophers out of the darkness.

We need a coach with the stature and ability to get 5 to 7 guys out of the portal and put a team together like Iowa St, Kansas St, Pitt, Missouri, Texas Tech last year...lots of examples. One year is enough in 2023 with the portal if you can coach.

I agree with all of that. I don't think they are going to fire Ben and I think it would likely be a disaster at this point if they did after 2 years. He has not been a good coach this year, but I do think he connects with the guys and his young recruits all show promise and have improved.
Ben has to be that guy this summer- if he wants to do this, he needs to go get those guys. If Monson, who was not a very good recruiter, was able to go out and get Grier and Stamper and Pitino, also not an A recruiter was able to dig out a lil Dre, Robbins and other decent portal guys- there's no reason Ben can't do it.

Go pay 600-700k for the best recruiter assistant out there. Do what it takes.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I think you are selling Battle pretty short. If you are an opposing coach...who are you most worried about hurting you? No question it is Battle for me. It might be Payne if we used him like Cockburn and if we did it would elevate Battle's value.
We had no actions to get Battle looks. Almost all his shots he had to create off a dribble...that is not what he does best. He's a scoring machine utilized to his strengths....which he wasn't...not his fault and therefore he was ineffective for his abilities. Absolutely our most dangerous shooter! Not even close.
Highly unlikely we get a better shooter than Battle. If we do...will we put him in spots to do what he does best? That's the problem, not Battle.

If I am an opposing coach I am worried more about Garcia than Battle but Battle would have been second. He is a quality player who had a down year.

 

[jovs]

Given the rest of your post, what gives you the optimism for the bolded part?

Henley and Carrington are starting to look like B1G guards. They are big, athletic, defense is coming along, and they are shooting the ball better. Ola-Joseph was much better than predicted and although a still a project Payne has great potential. A healthy Ihnen would help the team immensely. His ability to defend multiple positions should not be downplayed. As an alternative to guarding Crowl or Wahl last night would have been very beneficial, Garcia is downright dominating,

Loosing Cooper makes a really big hole at PG worse, that is the biggest problem. Battle is just too one dimensional making it to easy for opponents to defend him, Klesmit was giving up 4 inches to Battle but when the Gophers tried to post Battle inside he just didn't have the skillset to take advantage of it. If Battle leaves it will be tough to loose that dropdead shooting option he provided at times though. Hopefully Betts will add a more well rounded scoring option to the roster.

Adding Christy should help the depth at the guard position but not having a PG is like not having a Quarterback. We will see what happens but without help at PG all the strengths may be for naught.

 

[kg21]

I agree Battle shot poorly this year but if you think he was lazy on defense you have less basketball IQ than my 9 month old grandson. Battle works his tail off on defense but often he is at a quickness disadvantage. That doesn’t mean he is lazy.

Battle is the kind of guy who if he was scoring, he played better defense. If he wasn't scoring or getting the ball, the intensity was less on the defensive end.

This is true with many players.

 

[Holy Man]

My take is that Ben didn't expect the entire team (save for one guy) to abandon him when he was hired. Then it became a bigger rebuild than anyone thought it would be and that he was equipped to deal with. Since then he's been barely treading water, taking whoever he could get no matter how it all fit together. Last year's team was better rounded than this year's; as a result, they won twice as many conference games. If there are more defections from this roster than we already know, that'll keep him in scramble mode. Once again, beggars won't be able to be choosers. He'll take who he can get in the portal, with less to sell than even before: up to now, he could ask to be given the benefit of the doubt about his and his staff's coaching abilities.

Probably true to an extent, but lots of speculation that the previous locker room was not a good place, and many players, even ones that could play, had to go. That several players leaving was "mutual" is a quote directly from Ben to someone I know. I only know one name for sure and I think it would surprise some. The core of your hypothesis is correct, though. He started much further below the original rebuild line than he ever thought he would, and has been playing catch up ever since.

It's time to start over. Again.

 

[Holy Man]

Ihnen of two years ago had length and hops. For the better part of that year Pitino had him floating the perimeter where he was not good. Later in the year he had him defending bigger guys and Ihnen was a pain for them to play against. Go back and watch some of those games if you can find them and if you can stand it. He can defend. His stats from two years ago- he was our second leading shot blocker and 5th leader rebounder in just 14 minutes. What killed him was offensive inefficiency. Garcia can be a lot better than he is - he should be adding muscle and certainly there is some coaching failure there as well.

I agree with all of that. I don't think they are going to fire Ben and I think it would likely be a disaster at this point if they did after 2 years. He has not been a good coach this year, but I do think he connects with the guys and his young recruits all show promise and have improved.
Ben has to be that guy this summer- if he wants to do this, he needs to go get those guys. If Monson, who was not a very good recruiter, was able to go out and get Grier and Stamper and Pitino, also not an A recruiter was able to dig out a lil Dre, Robbins and other decent portal guys- there's no reason Ben can't do it.

Go pay 600-700k for the best recruiter assistant out there. Do what it takes.

Okay, but you are omitting that both Monson and Pitino were starting at a much higher floor than Ben is. I agree that there is a decent nucleus if the core doesn't bail, but I have little confidence that the current staff has enough to sell portal guys to join that core.

Another concern on the basketball front is that it took new players almost the whole season to begin to gel, which suggests at least some coaching issues. A platoon of new players playing a lot of minutes suggests another year of learning curve.

It's hard for me to believe the disaster can be much worse than we are currently living, save some type of embarrassing scandal.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Okay, but you are omitting that both Monson and Pitino were starting at a much higher floor than Ben is. I agree that there is a decent nucleus if the core doesn't bail, but I have little confidence that the current staff has enough to sell portal guys to join that core.

Another concern on the basketball front is that it took new players almost the whole season to begin to gel, which suggests at least some coaching issues. A platoon of new players playing a lot of minutes suggests another year of learning curve.

It's hard for me to believe the disaster can be much worse than we are currently living, save some type of embarrassing scandal.

To be fair....this year's team took a while to gel, almost certainly due to the number of freshman seeing bing minutes. The team in Johnson's first year gelled extremely fast, due in large part to being led by very experienced players.

Year 3 - if the core of Garcia, Payne, JOJ, Carrington, Betts, Fox, Ihnen, Henley all stay and they find some good fits in the portal to go along with Christie it is likely that the team could gel fairly quickly.

 

[Ewert86PC]

without massive help in the portal, we are in a world of hurt yet again next year.

And we compound the problem of getting seats filled, unless we play teams that travel well. And then would we really have home games?

 

[howeda7]

I know it looks dark right now. Fire Ben and it gets darker. Watch the exodus (again). For next year, I remain convinced that an improved CBJ is our best shot at restoring the program.

This is one of the 5 worst teams in the the Power 6 and their 2nd best player is leaving a year early along with another of their top 4. It can't get any darker. Sure an exodus would suck, but it's not guaranteed to happen, and what's the difference if it's now or a year from now?

 

[bga1]

Okay, but you are omitting that both Monson and Pitino were starting at a much higher floor than Ben is. I agree that there is a decent nucleus if the core doesn't bail, but I have little confidence that the current staff has enough to sell portal guys to join that core.

Another concern on the basketball front is that it took new players almost the whole season to begin to gel, which suggests at least some coaching issues. A platoon of new players playing a lot of minutes suggests another year of learning curve.

It's hard for me to believe the disaster can be much worse than we are currently living, save some type of embarrassing scandal.

A lot depends on how much Ben's current players like play for him and just like him personally. If the answer is affirmative to both, it may well be that the players themselves can convince others to join.

If on the other hand the players think he is clueless- then by all means fire him now. I would think Coyle is looking into what the players' view is.

I think that Ben is a better recruiter than either of the above mentioned coaches and will connect with players better. Can he convince them that it is not a sinking ship? Not sure.