Arkansas thoughts

[fan of Ray Williams]

You said a lot of things, but let me comment on this. I don't believe Coach P. and staff are anywhere near done recruiting for this year's class. They have one scholarship now and I would guess they come up with 2 more. Not exactly sure who is going to leave, but feel it will become clearer before the B1G starts. He should have pretty much a handpicked group by next season. Also, Martin looks good to me at the 4.

I agree, he's not done. Lots of things can happen between now and next year.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Remember when everyone (including me) said Gopher football wouldn't win another big 10 game after Iowa/Michigan debacles ... That was fun.

Point being, it's one game in year one. Gotta let this play out a bit.

I was just thinking the same thing. I am not ready to write this season off because of two out of conference losses. On the flip side, the problem in college sports is that the losses do hurt you, even if the team bounces back. If the football team had won one of either Iowa or Michigan (and I certainly think our team/coaching staff has showed that they are capable of better performances than what they showed in those two games), then we are still ranked and firmly in the mix for the Jan. 1 games rather than hoping that if we win in East Lansing, we might get one.

As for the basketball team, I don't think that the season is over. We can still do some damage the rest of the way out of conference and then play a solid B1G season. However, there is a good chance we might end up being a bubble team. If that's the case, Arkansas is a bad loss that we really wish wasn't on our resume, and the Syracuse game is a potential signature win that was a great opportunity which we threw away with 86 turnovers (or whatever the number was).

 

[tinyarch]

At the moment, Buggs reminds me of Rodney Williams leaping ability with bricks for hands. The ball literally bounces off his hands with nearly every pass he receives...and when he does get the ball he treats it like it's a hot potato. Buggs is a significant project. There is a reason why Coach Pitino has no confidence in him. However, if coach and Buggs can identify a couple things that allow Buggs to have a role on the team, then I think he gets more playing time. I would suggest that Buggs concentrate on defense and rebounding. Offensively he just needs to attack the rim for rebounds and honestly...the other players need to keep the ball out of his hands because he stops ball movement. Give Coach Pitino some time to figure out what role that Buggs and Ellensen can play. Neither are refined enough to just plug in and let them go.

Agreed, though I think that some trends are becoming established. Rebounds in traffic in the B1G season will be infrequent, especially if they are in zone defenses which make it more difficult to box out. There will be some stretches of exciting basketball that will make Williams noisy, but they won't be sustainable. Pitino has little confidence in Wally and absolutely no confidence in Buggs. Buggs is the only player on the gophers who looks like the guys on the Arkansas team. He obviously doesn't play like the guys on the Arkansas team. I turned the game off with 8 minutes left yesterday and Buggs hadn't seen the floor in a fast paced, second of back to back games against a team of "long, athletic" players.

As I've said, I think that the gophers will upset some people at home and the games will be a lot more fun than under Tubbby, but the last two games are probably indicative of the caliber of opponent that we are going to see starting in January. I also hope that Pitino is able to find a foundation player for the fourth scholarship for 2014 because otherwise the talent level doesn't project to be better next year.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I think there's such thing as overreacting to one half of one game. Up until 1 PM yesterday the sun was shining. They had just gone toe to toe with a Top 10 team and lost a close game for their only defeat. Even the first half of the Arkansas game was OK. Then they play one atrocious half of basketball and the future of the entire program is being questioned. I appreciate the wit, wisdom and insight on this board as much as anyone, but there are days when I just have to say, sheesh! From the quotes I read from the players and the coach in the paper this morning, it's obvious to me that they're making sure to not overreact to one bad performance. That's the trick to succeeding over the course of a season. There have been years when Wisconsin, for example, has gotten off to bad starts to the conference season and has looked like crap, and we're sitting here celebrating that the wicked witch is finally dead, and Bo pulls them out of the nosedive and back on track. I'm guessing part of the secret to that is not panicking or giving up.

So what if we have a season like Illinois last year? I would take it. They had struggles at times and weren't the picture of consistency, but they got better as the year went on and avenged a home blowout loss with road and BTT wins over the Gophers. They were who they were, which was a function of what Weber left for Groce, and we are who we are, too. We Gopher fans can embrace this team, or we can choose to curl up in the fetal position and give up on the program halfway through the non-conference schedule in the coach's first season. I personally think this team will be better in 3-4 months than they are now and that they have enough talent to win some games and provide good entertainment.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

I think there's such thing as overreacting to one half of one game. Up until 1 PM yesterday the sun was shining. They had just gone toe to toe with a Top 10 team and lost for their only defeat. Even the first half of the Arkansas game was OK. Then they play one atrocious half of basketball and the future of the entire program is being questioned. I appreciate the wit, wisdom and insight on this board as much as anyone, but there are days when I just have to say, sheesh! From the quotes I read from the players and the coach in the paper this morning, it's obvious to me that they're making sure to not overreact to one bad performance. That's the trick to succeeding over the course of a season. There have been years when Wisconsin, for example, has gotten off to bad starts to the conference season and has looked like crap, and we're sitting here celebrating that the wicked witch is finally dead, and Bo pulls them out of the nosedive and back on track. I'm guessing part of the secret to that is not panicking or giving up.

So what if we have a season like Illinois last year. I would take it. They had struggles early and weren't the picture of consistency, but they got better as the year went on and avenged a blowout loss at home with a BTT win over the Gophers. They were who they were, which was a function of what Weber left for Groce, and we are who we are, too. We Gopher fans can embrace this team, or we can choose to curl up in the fetal position and give up on the program halfway through the non-conference schedule in the coach's first season. I personally think this team will be better in 3-4 months than they are now and that they have enough talent to win some games and provide good entertainment.

Man, good post.

 

[dpodoll68]

Have to win the rest of the non-conference games and go about .500 in the B10 to make the dance now. Not going to be easy. I think an NIT run is doable and hopefully Pitino can recruit some talent to play his system in the upcoming years.

Why do you only post during or after losses?

 

[march madness]

young and athletic arkansas wins the track meet.

We are pretty small if not in height than with muscle. Also we play our 2-3 defense to really overplay the 3pt line, once Arkansas found a way to hit the high post it was lob and dunk city. We really lost 2 of our best athletes to graduation and replaced them with skilled but unathletic guys. Arkansas would probably struggle in a half court game (1 sr mostly so and fr), but in a full court game, those athletes shine.

. In the paint, our guys work hard but cannot compete at the rim with teams like Arkansas and Syracuse. We've been dunked on about 15 times in the last two games. That gets embarrassing after a while, and I was hoping we'd knock a guy on his ass at some point to at least make him think twice. Teams are gonna be throwing lobs against our undersized forwards all year.
QUOTE]

 

[Bad Gopher]

We are pretty small if not in height than with muscle. Also we play our 2-3 defense to really overplay the 3pt line, once Arkansas found a way to hit the high post it was lob and dunk city. We really lost 2 of our best athletes to graduation and replaced them with skilled but unathletic guys. Arkansas would probably struggle in a half court game (1 sr mostly so and fr), but in a full court game, those athletes shine.

They hit cutters, and nobody was bumping them or getting in their way. I'm sure Pitino is telling his guys that playing Washington Generals defense will not get the job done.

 

[From the Barn]

So what if we have a season like Illinois last year. They had struggles early and weren't the picture of consistency, but they got better as the year went on and avenged a blowout loss at home with a BTT win over the Gophers.

Illinois' end product was fine, but they were at their best at the beginning of the season, and really struggled in the B1G.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

I think there's such thing as overreacting to one half of one game. Up until 1 PM yesterday the sun was shining. They had just gone toe to toe with a Top 10 team and lost for their only defeat. Even the first half of the Arkansas game was OK. Then they play one atrocious half of basketball and the future of the entire program is being questioned. I appreciate the wit, wisdom and insight on this board as much as anyone, but there are days when I just have to say, sheesh! From the quotes I read from the players and the coach in the paper this morning, it's obvious to me that they're making sure to not overreact to one bad performance. That's the trick to succeeding over the course of a season. There have been years when Wisconsin, for example, has gotten off to bad starts to the conference season and has looked like crap, and we're sitting here celebrating that the wicked witch is finally dead, and Bo pulls them out of the nosedive and back on track. I'm guessing part of the secret to that is not panicking or giving up.

So what if we have a season like Illinois last year. I would take it. They had struggles early and weren't the picture of consistency, but they got better as the year went on and avenged a blowout loss at home with a BTT win over the Gophers. They were who they were, which was a function of what Weber left for Groce, and we are who we are, too. We Gopher fans can embrace this team, or we can choose to curl up in the fetal position and give up on the program halfway through the non-conference schedule in the coach's first season. I personally think this team will be better in 3-4 months than they are now and that they have enough talent to win some games and provide good entertainment.

I try to avoid this place at those times... It's down right depressing....

I should avoid this place after good games as well, because it gets too damn euphoric and I have a smile on my face all day....

Pitino is a salesmen, he has to show glimmers of excellence to win on the recruiting trail. He won't get top 10/25 kids while losing, but he certainly can get those top 50 kids that feel like they were slighted by not being top 10s.

Remember Brewster was able to recruit allegedly higher skilled kids when he was losing, the problem with Brew was he couldn't coach them. What I'll be watching is can Pitino coach this team into being able to handle a team like Arkansas, and be able to recover from getting punched in the mouth. They did it vs Syracuse very well, why not against Ark? Was the tired factor a bigger one than we are giving credit for?

 

[march madness]

Rodney is miles more athletic than the 4's this year, and TM is way more athletic than EE. Now in terms of skills I would say they are pretty close. We are really playing a 2 guard in Austin at the sf which really makes us small when you figure in Oto and Joey being less athletic and not that strong. The roster is what it is. Pitino may get us where we need to go but he is young and you don't recruit top 100 players without big wins at some point.

This team is not even close to the level of last year's squad in terms of basketball skills and athletic ability. Go back and watch our wins against Illinois, Michigan State, Florida State and Indiana last year and then watch the games against Syracuse and Arkansas this year and there is a glaring lack of athleticism and skill up front. The guards are pretty much the same, but we took a huge step back in the front line and are going to pay dearly for it this year. We have morphed into a finesse, jump shooting team and much like Illinois last year, when we are hot we can beat teams we should not, but we will also lose a lot of games we should not when we cannot hit the outside shot and our defense is atrocious.

My biggest concern is that we take a huge step backwards this year and then recruiting suffers. Pitino has a bad class this year (please, no excuses or justifications, it is not a good class and probably ranks near the bottom of the B1G) and if we lay a huge egg this year in our games I do not see recruiting getting any better next year.

 

[march madness]

The zone worked relatively well against Syracuse. Would you have played man to man when we are at a speed disadvantage at every position besides pg?

That zone is worthless, so far it is the second coming of Dan Monson, can't win in the B1G playing that unless you have far superior talent which isn't going to happen. We'll see but it looks like a 4-14 year to me, a few wins against he non athletic teams, really have to be on fire to beat any of the better teams because they aren't going to be able to stop them from scoring.

 

[march madness]

only minnesota fans believed this team wasnt a bubble team at best.

Almost all preseason magazines have us finishing between 8-11 in the big ten. Only Maroon colored glass wearers see this team as something way more. There is potential for us to overachieve as there is potential for us to underachieve. I am optomistic we can improve throughout the year and make a NIT run, and have an outside chance at a NCAA tourney shot. If your expectations are higher you are not a realist. As far as this game is concerned, Arkansas has the athletes for an uptempo game. We have the experience, but such a limited front court physically, that playing slow probably wouldn't have worked either.

However, there is a good chance we might end up being a bubble team. QUOTE]

 

[katze019]

I wouldn't go this far. We've only lost two games and were competitive with Syracuse for the entire game and for half a game against Arkansas with less than 24 hours rest. I don't see us being over .500 in the B1G, but we'll pull out some fun wins, especially at the Barn. The lack of extraordinary athletes was exposed, but that doesn't mean Pitino can't make adjustments and play to the strength of the kids he currently has to work with. Clearly this team is a work in progress as they adjust to a new coach (we wouldn't expect a B1G championship from Jerry Kill in the first year of his coaching and we shouldn't expect it from Pitino either). What we should see is incremental improvement in the team overall throughout the season. This team will get better over the season (something we aren't familiar with by the way). We will find a way to win games we shouldn't win. Enjoy the ride. Give the kid a chance to work with a group of players that he never knew until last spring. In other words...step away from the ledge...it will be alright.

It is what is, I agree with most the comments above.

I'm fine with the athletic ability of Mo and EE. Elliot's size makes up for a lot. Oto is a decent athlete, King is very below average for the B1G. This team is a Buckles (or Buggs being the player I thought he would be after the redshirt) away form being very good.

When it becomes B1G season I hope to see EE playing 30mpg and Mo 20mpg... What I'm most curious to see is that 10mpg when they are on the court together as our 4 & 5.

 

[station19]

It is what is, I agree with most the comments above.

I'm fine with the athletic ability of Mo and EE. Elliot's size makes up for a lot. Oto is a decent athlete, King is very below average for the B1G. This team is a Buckles (or Buggs being the player I thought he would be after the redshirt) away form being very good.

When it becomes B1G season I hope to see EE playing 30mpg and Mo 20mpg... What I'm most curious to see is that 10mpg when they are on the court together as our 4 & 5.

I don't see it happening.

 

[bga1]

Rodney is miles more athletic than the 4's this year, and TM is way more athletic than EE. Now in terms of skills I would say they are pretty close. We are really playing a 2 guard in Austin at the sf which really makes us small when you figure in Oto and Joey being less athletic and not that strong. The roster is what it is. Pitino may get us where we need to go but he is young and you don't recruit top 100 players without big wins at some point.

Joey and EE have twice the basketball skills that Mbakwe and Williams but aren't in the same universe as those two athletically. Mbakwe and Williams would have been incredible in Pitino's scheme. It would have been a dunkathon.

 

[jaymil]

The NCAA really screwed us, Rakeem Buckles on this team would be a huge addition. He's averaging 15 and 9 and blocking 1.7 shots a game, and shooting an outstanding line of 49.5%/43.5%/77.1%. He'd be a perfect fit.

 

[katze019]

I don't see it happening.

You think they will never be on the court together? It always happens, you see multiple combination of players overlapping on the court. If Mo can run the floor, we know he has some outside touch and is a great passer, why can't he play some 4? Expically when King and Oto are your other options?

 

[Winasota Gopher]

You think they will never be on the court together? It always happens, you see multiple combination of players overlapping on the court. If Mo can run the floor, we know he has some outside touch and is a great passer, why can't he play some 4? Expically when King and Oto are your other options?

Exactly what part of our 2-3 zone would Mo play....

What team in the B1G do you think we would need him to guard a 4?

We certainly are never going to "go big" as a result of us changing styles to gain an advantage, it will almost always be out of necessity from the other team and I just don't know of (and I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable of others rosters) of a team putting 2 centers out there that we would be better off putting Mo and Elliot on the court to defend them.

 

[katze019]

Exactly what part of our 2-3 zone would Mo play....

What tells you we are going to play 2/3 every second of every game....

What team in the B1G do you think we would need him to guard a 4?

What 4 do you think he can't defend for very limited minutes in a game?

 

[Winasota Gopher]

What tells you we are going to play 2/3 every second of every game....



What 4 do you think he can't defend for very limited minutes in a game?

Well now you are changing the point... "very limited minutes of a game" and the original post of 10 minutes a game are completely different stories. Can it happen? Sure, will it happen? Possibly

My point is, and correct me if I'm wrong 19, it will never be part of a game plan, we get nothing out of having both of them on the court at the same time with this style of basketball.

 

[katze019]

we get nothing out of having both of them on the court at the same time with this style of basketball.

Not changing the point, optimistic he can (and will) play on the court at the same time with EE, if it works out, he will get up in the 10mpg range overlap, max. Would like to see the mismatch on O with those two bigs and rebounding.

It will depend on Mo's footwork and conditioning, that's what I am curious to see.

Because he is 6'-10" 250lbs means he can't play some 4? He has to be 6'-8" or 6'-9" 225-240?

---You seem to be overly concerned about Mo being a defensive liability... So are our alternatives, ie Joe King---

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

Not changing the point, optimistic he can (and will) play on the court at the same time with EE, if it works out, he will get up in the 10mpg range overlap, max. Would like to see the mismatch on O with those two bigs and rebounding.

It will depend on Mo's footwork and conditioning, that's what I am curious to see.

Because he is 6'-10" 250lbs means he can't play some 4? He has to be 6'-8" or 6'-9" 225-240?

The reason Mo isn't ideal at the 4 is because it's hard to imagine him defending other 4s like Dekker, Robinson III, and Dawson (just off the top of my head). Do you really think he could effectively defend them? Maybe there are some teams with bigger/slower power forwards that he could guard, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Can you?

 

[Winasota Gopher]

The reason Mo isn't ideal at the 4 is because it's hard to imagine him defending other 4s like Dekker, Robinson III, and Dawson (just off the top of my head). Do you really think he could effectively defend them? Maybe there are some teams with bigger/slower power forwards that he could guard, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Can you?

WHY WOULD WE WANT MO AT THE 4?

That's the question no one has answered, not whether or not he can play it. What have you seen from Pitino and his style that would suggest Mo Walker at the 4 would add anything to this team. He cannot play the wing in a Pitino style 2-3 and he cannot run the court as well as Oto or Joey, he cannot hit a three.

Mo will be EE's backup, unless forced by another team with 2 larger bigs to push us into a man to man slow it down style of game. I cannot think of which Big10 team would force us into that style of game other than Wisky or maybe Penn State, and they don't have the size or skill in PSUs example to make us match up with them in that style.

For those reasons, I do not anticipate Mo to play 10 minutes a game with EE on the court.

Not changing the point, optimistic he can (and will) play on the court at the same time with EE, if it works out, he will get up in the 10mpg range overlap, max. Would like to see the mismatch on O with those two bigs and rebounding.

It will depend on Mo's footwork and conditioning, that's what I am curious to see.

Because he is 6'-10" 250lbs means he can't play some 4? He has to be 6'-8" or 6'-9" 225-240?

---You seem to be overly concerned about Mo being a defensive liability... So are our alternatives, ie Joe King---

Again, I'm not concerned about Mo, I'm just not seeing it in Pitino's style. If this was Tubby's team they would likely get 15 minutes together to run a highly effective hi/lo game. That is not Pitino's style.

My comments about Mo's defensive shortcomings/upside is that I only predict him getting into the game in an instance where we are forced by the other team to defend a bigger lineup.

 

[katze019]

The reason Mo isn't ideal at the 4 is because it's hard to imagine him defending other 4s like Dekker, Robinson III, and Dawson

Oto and King are not ideal PF in the B1G either, can they stop those guys other PFs?

I anticipate the two will average 45-50 minutes combined come B1G season (note overlap), I'm curious to see how that works out. Clearly most of his minutes will be as a center.

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

Oto and King are not ideal PF in the B1G either, can he stop those guys?

I anticipate the two will average 45-50 minutes combined come B1G season (note overlap), I'm curious to see how that works out.

But they are far more ideal than Mo, especially in our system. Putting Mo at the 4 by choice just doesn't make any sense, even if it's only for 10 minutes.

 

[Minnesconsin fan]

"Mo will be EE's backup, unless forced by another team with 2 larger bigs to push us into a man to man slow it down style of game. I cannot think of which Big10 team would force us into that style of game other than Wisky or maybe Penn State, and they don't have the size or skill in PSUs example to make us match up with them in that style." (quoted)

Wisconsin has one "big" in Kaminsky who is really more of a stretch 4, but is about 6'10"-- their other inside guy is a 6'7" freshman--everyone else is a wing, including Dekker. Not much "pound it in the paint with a back to the basket center " offense going to be run by the Badgers this year either

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

"Mo will be EE's backup, unless forced by another team with 2 larger bigs to push us into a man to man slow it down style of game. I cannot think of which Big10 team would force us into that style of game other than Wisky or maybe Penn State, and they don't have the size or skill in PSUs example to make us match up with them in that style." (quoted)

Wisconsin has one "big" in Kaminsky who is really more of a stretch 4, but is about 6'10"-- their other inside guy is a 6'7" freshman--everyone else is a wing, including Dekker. Not much "pound it in the paint with a back to the basket center " offense going to be run by the Badgers this year either

Right. I'm pretty sure Dekker plays a lot of 4 for them even though he's really a big 3. Mo cannot guard him. Nothing against Mo, it's just a bad matchup. Also, I don't know much about PSU, but hasn't Ross Travis been their starting PF? If so, it's the same story there. More of a big wing (he actually played a lot of point guard for his high school team).

 

[katze019]

But they are far more ideal than Mo, especially in our system. Putting Mo at the 4 by choice just doesn't make any sense, even if it's only for 10 minutes.

Okay, I'll be watching to see how many games the two combine for over 40 mpg (since you say never) and go from there...

Apparently the sky will fall.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

"Mo will be EE's backup, unless forced by another team with 2 larger bigs to push us into a man to man slow it down style of game. I cannot think of which Big10 team would force us into that style of game other than Wisky or maybe Penn State, and they don't have the size or skill in PSUs example to make us match up with them in that style." (quoted)

Wisconsin has one "big" in Kaminsky who is really more of a stretch 4, but is about 6'10"-- their other inside guy is a 6'7" freshman--everyone else is a wing, including Dekker. Not much "pound it in the paint with a back to the basket center " offense going to be run by the Badgers this year either

exactly, which is why I said they lacked the size to force us to change our lineup.

Okay, I'll be watching to see how many games the two combine for over 40 mpg (since you say never) and go from there...

Apparently the sky will fall.

And no one has yet to say it will never happen, we just don't think its part of the game plan. Your quote was that you EXPECT them to AVERAGE 10 minutes a game together, ie we game plan for it. Can you elaborate on why we would do that on a consistent basis?