All things D2 and D3 football 2022

[disco]

My second thought is that Division 2 is probably the wrong division for many public universities in it. Many have lower attendance and less revenue than D3 schools but are still paying out scholarships to athletes that should probably be spread out amongst all students at the university. Being D3 maybe could have saved the programs at Crookston or St. Cloud.

One other thing to note, is that alumni involvement and donations are much greater at private schools than they are public.

St. Cloud could not go D3 and still sponsor D1 hockey. All the D3 schools that have D1 hockey teams (Colorado College and a bunch of those tiny expensive Eastern schools) are grandfathered in at this point.

With the exception of grandfathered in programs, D3 schools are not allowed to sponsor an individual sport at a higher level with athletic scholarships. The reason D2 schools can play D1 hockey, is that there is no D2 hockey.

I honestly don't know why Crookston isn't in the UMAC with Morris. That should not be a D2 school and I don't know why anyone would go there.

 

[Schnauzer]

It can be frustrating to be in a conversation (or a message board thread) with someone who doesn’t understand football.

People that don’t understand football typically see the game differently. They are the ones that feel a loaded Alabama college team could beat the New York Jets. They are the ones that feel local high school teams can beat St. Olaf. The game just looks different to them.

My dad always liked to tell the story of how our next door neighbor (the guy didn’t know the difference between a baseball and a football) went to the local high school game one Friday night. About half way through the game, the neighbor turned to my dad and asked “Why do they always run the ball to where all the people are?”

 

[GophersInIowa]

That's really interesting and honestly kind of eye-opening. I remember when Mac was the absolute bottom feeders of D3. I wonder how much had to do with just overall body maturity and strength.

That's exactly what it is. It's not even close.

 

[Ope3]

I don't know if it matters but I played on one of the better HS teams in the history of MN. We won the big school state championship, we had 7 division 1 football players and a number of the BCS athletes were vastly under recruited.

We scrimmaged Macalester a few times. This Macalester team was significantly worse than where the program is right now.

They absolutely bullied us, especially up front.

That's really interesting and honestly kind of eye-opening. I remember when Mac was the absolute bottom feeders of D3. I wonder how much had to do with just overall body maturity and strength.

Over the years, I once in a while Carleton, Hamline or Mac has been really down, not just in terms of ability but roster number (less than 40). If a team like that lost their QB and backup, I would go as far as saying a top Metro HS team could give them a scare.

Anything short of that, I would expect a result as Bob experienced. Just bigger and stronger players.

 

[AO54]

One other thing to note, is that alumni involvement and donations are much greater at private schools than they are public.

St. Cloud could not go D3 and still sponsor D1 hockey. All the D3 schools that have D1 hockey teams (Colorado College and a bunch of those tiny expensive Eastern schools) are grandfathered in at this point.

With the exception of grandfathered in programs, D3 schools are not allowed to sponsor an individual sport at a higher level with athletic scholarships. The reason D2 schools can play D1 hockey, is that there is no D2 hockey.

I honestly don't know why Crookston isn't in the UMAC with Morris. That should not be a D2 school and I don't know why anyone would go there.

Those rules don't mandate that St. Cloud stays at D2, just that no other team could add a D1 hockey team without being D1. It's easier to go down a division than up a division as the expenses are typically smaller. There actually is a D2 hockey conference, by the way, the NE-10, but since there's just the one they don't have a national championship.

I'd absolutely welcome Crookston to the UMAC.

 

[Tommyboy]

I heard St. Cloud had only 50 season tickets holders before they shut down.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Wayzata 2009. Check their roster.

16-18 year olds against 18-23 year olds? Nope

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

That's exactly what it is. It's not even close.

The physical maturity is a big issue, but I think some people don't quite grasp the roster compositions of a lot of those smaller schools like Bemidji St, Moorhead St, St Cloud St, Southwest St, et al. Even at that level, almost everyone there (at least as freshmen) were HS team captains, All-Conference players, multi-year starters, etc.

Kids who couldn't start for multiple years in HS are not getting on the rosters at those small-mid sized colleges, they aren't even trying out.

 

[Tommyboy]

Before social media I do not think most kids cared where they would play football, I think they would go play for the local team. DIII was doing better then the Gophers if you look at the records in the 80's.

 

[noamfromm]

Before social media I do not think most kids cared where they would play football, I think they would go play for the local team. DIII was doing better then the Gophers if you look at the records in the 80's.

are you saying:

a. that tommie frazier didn't care where he played football?
b. that the st johns quarterback was better than rickey foggie because he had a better record?

I don't follow the take.

 

[Tommyboy]

are you saying:

a. that tommie frazier didn't care where he played football?
b. that the st johns quarterback was better than rickey foggie because he had a better record?

I don't follow the take.

I do not think that older group cared where they played, if they got there school paid for like a SCSU or duluth, they would go and play. They did not blog about it, I think Minnesota was more of a hockey state. I saw the Gophers record in the 80's they would win a few games a year.

 

[noamfromm]

I do not think that older group cared where they played, if they got there school paid for like a SCSU or duluth, they would go and play. They did not blog about it, I think Minnesota was more of a hockey state. I saw the Gophers record in the 80's they would win a few games a year.

Is your contention that those kids could have played 1A football and instead picked Duluth? I doubt there is any example of a player who was offered by Duluth and the U who chose Duluth.

 

[GophersInIowa]

The physical maturity is a big issue, but I think some people don't quite grasp the roster compositions of a lot of those smaller schools like Bemidji St, Moorhead St, St Cloud St, Southwest St, et al. Even at that level, almost everyone there (at least as freshmen) were HS team captains, All-Conference players, multi-year starters, etc.

Kids who couldn't start for multiple years in HS are not getting on the rosters at those small-mid sized colleges, they aren't even trying out.

Definitely. Didn't mean to sound like they weren't talented too.

I played D2 ball back before the NSIC added some of the schools from NCC and increased the scholarship limit. Even then the talent was pretty good.

I also remember how much stronger I became after a year or two out of HS. I put on 15-20 pounds my freshman year alone. And I'm not a very big guy so that's a big deal.

 

[Panthadad2]

I’d hammer SJU -5.5 if this was an available bet

Yup.

 

[Tommyboy]

Is your contention that those kids could have played 1A football and instead picked Duluth? I doubt there is any example of a player who was offered by Duluth and the U who chose Duluth.

I am saying it would be more probable back then when the gophers were winning 2-3 games a year and teams like SJU were beating SCSU and playing Duluth during the season. Some of the best players in the state had family members play at these schools. Malmone from Lake View South, his dad played for SCSU, so did Bouman from Buttalo and Otto from CP

 

[Gopherchase]

It can be frustrating to be in a conversation (or a message board thread) with someone who doesn’t understand football.

People that don’t understand football typically see the game differently. They are the ones that feel a loaded Alabama college team could beat the New York Jets. They are the ones that feel local high school teams can beat St. Olaf. The game just looks different to them.

My dad always liked to tell the story of how our next door neighbor (the guy didn’t know the difference between a baseball and a football) went to the local high school game one Friday night. About half way through the game, the neighbor turned to my dad and asked “Why do they always run the ball to where all the people are?”

Just the opposite actually although from the sound of it I couldn’t hold a candle to you and The Old Man — I’m guilty of having a level of ambivalence for D3 because folks involved as players or alumni feel it’s better football than it actually is and the kids I played with back in the day that ended up there weren’t very good by comparison had low ceilings. Can’t win the argument I’m pushing here I get that; just seems like half assed athletes are still going to be same whether they are 22 or 18; a bit stronger but basically the same dime a dozen kids.

 

[disco]

Those rules don't mandate that St. Cloud stays at D2, just that no other team could add a D1 hockey team without being D1. It's easier to go down a division than up a division as the expenses are typically smaller. There actually is a D2 hockey conference, by the way, the NE-10, but since there's just the one they don't have a national championship.

I'd absolutely welcome Crookston to the UMAC.

If St. Cloud dropped down to D3, their hockey team would also have to drop to D3 per NCAA rules.
I don't believe they would qualify for the grandfathering. That was only for D3 schools that were already playing D1 hockey.

The issue with the NE-10 is under NCAA rules, if they remained playing hockey in D3 conferences (which they were), it rendered those conferences ineligible for the NCAA tournament. It's the same reason UMC had to drop hockey when they moved to the NSIC - they couldn't afford to go D1, and they weren't allowed to play down at the D3 level.

 

[Gopherchase]

Although, I would have traded Morgan straight up for Jackson Erdmann. That kid has skills.

 

[disco]

The physical maturity is a big issue, but I think some people don't quite grasp the roster compositions of a lot of those smaller schools like Bemidji St, Moorhead St, St Cloud St, Southwest St, et al. Even at that level, almost everyone there (at least as freshmen) were HS team captains, All-Conference players, multi-year starters, etc.

Kids who couldn't start for multiple years in HS are not getting on the rosters at those small-mid sized colleges, they aren't even trying out.

Definitely true. I played big school football and started only my senior year. I never even considered playing for Moorhead when I went to college. I wasn't close to big enough.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I'd say that because they're public it is wrong to favor the athletes over every other student when the athletic program doesn't generate revenue to come close to covering the program costs even excluding the scholarship costs.

This is merely an argument that no varsity athlete at any member of the NCAA should ever get an athletic scholarship from the school.

Not a valid argument about what a public should or shouldn't do.

 

[Gophers_4life]

All of those things happen at the D3 level as well.

Except for athletic scholarships.

If DII did not allow any athletic scholarships, then you'd have a leg to stand on. The main, chief difference between the two is athletic scholarships or no.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Those rules don't mandate that St. Cloud stays at D2, just that no other team could add a D1 hockey team without being D1.

This is not correct.

The NCAA would not allow St Cloud to go to DIII and play DI hockey, because there is a separate DIII championship in hockey. They can be DII, because DI and DII have a combined championship.

 

[disco]

This is not correct.

The NCAA would not allow St Cloud to go to DIII and play DI hockey, because there is a separate DIII championship in hockey. They can be DII, because DI and DII have a combined championship.

You put that more clearly than I did.

These are the D3 schools that are grandfathered in and allowed to continue their D1 hockey programs. Under current rules, no new teams would qualify for this loophole. If any of these teams dropped hockey and then decided to reinstate the sport, they would be required to play at the D3 level going forward.

Clarkson
Colorado College
RPI
RIT
St. Lawrence
Union

Here are the D2 schools that play D1 hockey.
UAF
UAA
American Intl.
Bemidji State
Bentley
Ferris St.
Mercyhurst
N. Michigan
Michigan Tech
Duluth
Mankato
St. Cloud
Alabama-Huntsville was also D2, but ended killing their program again.

Under current rules, any D2 school could sponsor D1 hockey if they want to. MSU-Moorhead looked into it, but didn't think they could raise the funding. Too bad, because having D1 Hockey in Fargo-Moorhead I think would have been successful.

 

[Gophers_4life]

You put that more clearly than I did.

These are the D3 schools that are grandfathered in and allowed to continue their D1 hockey programs. Under current rules, no new teams would qualify for this loophole. If any of these teams dropped hockey and then decided to reinstate the sport, they would be required to play at the D3 level going forward.

Clarkson
Colorado College
RPI
RIT
St. Lawrence
Union

Here are the D2 schools that play D1 hockey.
UAF
UAA
American Intl.
Bemidji State
Bentley
Ferris St.
Mercyhurst
N. Michigan
Michigan Tech
Duluth
Mankato
St. Cloud
Alabama-Huntsville was also D2, but ended killing their program again.

Under current rules, any D2 school could sponsor D1 hockey if they want to. MSU-Moorhead looked into it, but didn't think they could raise the funding. Too bad, because having D1 Hockey in Fargo-Moorhead I think would have been successful.

I think an important thing with "grandfathered" DIII schools that had DI programs was the ability to still offer athletic scholarships just in those programs.

There (used to be?) different groups of DIII schools playing DI hockey, those that could offer scholarships and those that could not (came after the grandfathering).

I'm not positive, but that particular aspect of the rules (maybe just in hockey?) might've have been done away with very recently, so that now any DI "play-up" can offer them.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Also, UAA nearly killed its program. But it was saved, for now, by tremendous fundraising effort.

UAA was apart of the old WCHA and UAF was apart of the old CCHA. They had conference rivals and solid teams going up to Anchorage and Fairbanks every year.

Now no conference wants anything to do with them. Is a shame but also the reality of travel costs and time.

 

[Ope3]

This is merely an argument that no varsity athlete at any member of the NCAA should ever get an athletic scholarship from the school.

Not a valid argument about what a public should or shouldn't do.

I think AO54's statement was that if it was a revenue generating sport, varsity athletes should be eligible for athletic scholarships.

Of course there would be Title IX impacts as well with that.

 

[fatgopher]

Just the opposite actually although from the sound of it I couldn’t hold a candle to you and The Old Man — I’m guilty of having a level of ambivalence for D3 because folks involved as players or alumni feel it’s better football than it actually is and the kids I played with back in the day that ended up there weren’t very good by comparison had low ceilings. Can’t win the argument I’m pushing here I get that; just seems like half assed athletes are still going to be same whether they are 22 or 18; a bit stronger but basically the same dime a dozen kids.

This tells us you're still not comprehending it though. Ogee's post about roster composition is spot on. You do get some athletes at D3 from the bigger schools but composition of rosters is very heavy on small to mid sized schools/programs. Those kids are often the best of a few athletes from each program with all conference honors and other accolades. They may not be as physically mature at 17/18 as the Wayzata/EP kid but they're also often 3 to 4 sport athletes in their communities and the weight room is something they fit in to an already squeezed schedule. Once they focus on one sport and a college weight program, their physical maturity blossoms.

Your friends you mentioned - if they went D3 and didn't do anything, it was because they weren't good enough for that level. There was probably a roster spot for those kids though. If they set their D3 league on fire, it's probably because they fell in the camp of a late bloomer and developed into a decent player. Your sample size of a few kids is creating a bias that not many share.

 

[Some guy]

The physical maturity is a big issue, but I think some people don't quite grasp the roster compositions of a lot of those smaller schools like Bemidji St, Moorhead St, St Cloud St, Southwest St, et al. Even at that level, almost everyone there (at least as freshmen) were HS team captains, All-Conference players, multi-year starters, etc.

Kids who couldn't start for multiple years in HS are not getting on the rosters at those small-mid sized colleges, they aren't even trying out.

I also don’t think people realize that most small school high schools in the state still have 2-5 players who could start at Woodbury, osseo, rosemount, wayzata etc

The reason they are in a smaller class isn’t because they don’t have any great football players. It’s because they only have a few of them.
If you’re the 14th best kid at Anoka you probably aren’t the best kid at more than a few high schools around the state. Though you might be the 3-4th best at quite a few.

 

[Ope3]

This tells us you're still not comprehending it though. Ogee's post about roster composition is spot on. You do get some athletes at D3 from the bigger schools but composition of rosters is very heavy on small to mid sized schools/programs. Those kids are often the best of a few athletes from each program with all conference honors and other accolades. They may not be as physically mature at 17/18 as the Wayzata/EP kid but they're also often 3 to 4 sport athletes in their communities and the weight room is something they fit in to an already squeezed schedule. Once they focus on one sport and a college weight program, their physical maturity blossoms.

Your friends you mentioned - if they went D3 and didn't do anything, it was because they weren't good enough for that level. There was probably a roster spot for those kids though. If they set their D3 league on fire, it's probably because they fell in the camp of a late bloomer and developed into a decent player. Your sample size of a few kids is creating a bias that not many share.

I think you are spot on.

One thing I would also like to add, is that the MIAC teams recruit nationally, even southern football hotbeds much more than they did going back to the 90s & even early 00s. Just a guess 20% - 40% of the rosters are from out of state.

 

[disco]

Also, UAA nearly killed its program. But it was saved, for now, by tremendous fundraising effort.

UAA was apart of the old WCHA and UAF was apart of the old CCHA. They had conference rivals and solid teams going up to Anchorage and Fairbanks every year.

Now no conference wants anything to do with them. Is a shame but also the reality of travel costs and time.

That's what killed Alabama-Huntsville too, but to a lesser extent.